quote:

Originally posted by wolfie:
I've noticed people get upset at " Flippers " who are nothing more than gamblers really, they buy a product and hope to make a profit on it next week, when they do people go mad but there must be times when these flippers place their bets and lose just like any other gamble, we don't tend to hear about those times.

Because we ignore those times, because there would be too much rejoicing.
Okay, maybe not so much in the card world, but I can share something about these evil flippers.

I collect Bowen Marvel mini-busts. On one forum, people would be all friendly and talk about their collections and such. Then their true nature would come out. A limited bust would come up that they have absolutely no interest in and they would say they're ordering to flip. There was more demand than supply. Several scenarios took place over the years, but basically for one reason or another, many flippers were able to get the product, and many true collectors couldn't get it direct at regular prices. They were at the mercy of the flipper.

The flippers have brought in a golden era for card collectors as opposed to "hits" collectors.

If you don't care about the sketches, autographs, costumes, props, etc., you can usually purchase a mini-master of everything else (the regular base and inserts) often for less than the price of one box. This happens when the flippers sell off the hits for a premium and then get rid of the regular cards at what would be a loss if they hadn't already made the money by selling the hits. Considering that you can't usually make a mini-master from a single box, this really has been a boon for people who just want the regular cards.

One other factor to consider is that print runs for most card sets, and certainly non sports sets are at an all-time low. If there weren't a certain number of pre-ordering flippers guaranteeing that a chunk of the production run was already sold by the time the actual cards were produced, then it stands to reason that some, if not the majority of the sets being issued today wouldn't be made in the first place.

While I do re-sell some of the cards I buy, I am not a flipper in that I will pretty much only buy cards based on subjects I like, and I have some cards that I would basically never sell, no matter what they were worth. I look at some of those cards and think to myself, "Gosh, if I can't keep these ones, why do I bother collecting?". Even so, I would not be able to afford nearly as many cards without selling some of them back, and there's no way I would've ever built the collection I have on my budget without by hybrid style of collecting/selling.

The true flippers may seem unscrupulous in their various practices, but I would be very careful about wishing them away. They are like long fingernails, the kind you might see in the Guinness Book of World Records. At first, it may seem like a larf to those growing them, you get your picture taken, maybe a cash prize, and it's a fun novelty. But eventually they discover they cannot cut them down without terrible pain for their nerves have grown inside the nails.

All that to say that the flippers are here to stay, and should they ever go away, that could be the end of non-sport cards as we know them. Production runs can't get much lower and still be a profitable enterprise for the manufacturers. Flippers guarantee a certain amount of sales that could never be matched by often fickle pure collectors.

quote:

Originally posted by chesspieceface:
The flippers have brought in a golden era for card collectors as opposed to "hits" collectors.

It's not just flippers doing this. . . it's the way the hobby is structured now. I'm looking for autographs and sketches. . . In the pursuit of those cards I often open a few boxes of a product, but even if I only open 3-4 boxes of a product I wind up with lots of duplicates -- and I am not even a big volume box buster. . .

quote:

Originally posted by chesspieceface:
One other factor to consider is that print runs for most card sets, and certainly non sports sets are at an all-time low. If there weren't a certain number of pre-ordering flippers guaranteeing that a chunk of the production run was already sold by the time the actual cards were produced, then it stands to reason that some, if not the majority of the sets being issued today wouldn't be made in the first place.

Production runs can't get much lower and still be a profitable enterprise for the manufacturers. Flippers guarantee a certain amount of sales that could never be matched by often fickle pure collectors.

That's an interesting opinion and I don't disagree with it, but rather wonder why it is true.

We all know the dangers of overproducing cards, but why does anyone think underproducing them is a good thing if there is a market. I have seen a number of recent titles that I thought were short printed and could have easily sold more. I have also seen the opposite, several recent titles that were very limited, but I had to wonder how they ever were made considering the small fan base.

In the past card values appreciated over time. I think card buyer mentality has changed to the point that everyone wants an immediate profit from what they purchase. I don't, I just want value from what I buy in line with what I paid. I am a collector, I don't care if they go up afterwards since I am not selling them anyway.

Don't misunderstand, I am not advocating overproduced cards that hold no value, but I wonder how card manufacturers are going to make a profit when they are producing marginal titles in limited numbers and popular titles in limited numbers.

Never mind what's happening on the secondary market, manufacturers have to make money in order to stay in business. I don't know how that is going to work out with some of the business models that I am looking at now.

These smaller quantity releases simply can't be the delicious chunk of pop culture they used to be. Topps TV and movie card sets in the 70's and 80's were events, and I would say a huge majority of kids back then during picked up at least a few packs of cards once in a while.

Cards aren't really at the corner store for 50 cents or even a dollar a pack anymore. And with production runs increasingly being limited as manufacturers cater to the bigger spending collector, non-sport cards for any given set really can't be as widely collected, oftentimes there just isn't the quantity for it, even were distribution still widespread. A low-production run, a brief shelf-life, immediate or eventual sell-out, and they're gone. Sure, someone's getting stuck with the bill when a product doesn't sell, but there's some values in collectors being able to assemble a set from packs for a reasonable price a few years after the set was originally released.

It really is the shared experience of collecting that breathes the life and continued relevance into any hobby like ours. Look at Topps Baseball. Still going strong after 60 years, largely unchanged in what the cards are, a picture of the player on front, and stats on back. There just a lot more gloss and foil on the better stock cards which are cleaner cut and actually print the photos in focus. The mammoth print run for Topps baseball each year means everyone who want them can get them all year, and usually for years after. Even I buy a couple of boxes of their regular baseball cards each year and I don't really even collect sports cards anymore. My Topps baseball sets are in neat boxes going back to 1980, usually hand sorted from packs I opened. I still enjoy adding the new one to the stack.

quote:

Originally posted by chesspieceface:
These smaller quantity releases simply can't be the delicious chunk of pop culture they used to be. Topps TV and movie card sets in the 70's and 80's were events, and I would say a huge majority of kids back then during picked up at least a few packs of cards once in a while.

Cards aren't really at the corner store for 50 cents or even a dollar a pack anymore. And with production runs increasingly being limited as manufacturers cater to the bigger spending collector, non-sport cards for any given set really can't be as widely collected, oftentimes there just isn't the quantity for it, even were distribution still widespread. A low-production run, a brief shelf-life, immediate or eventual sell-out, and they're gone.

In the 70s and 80s most cards were distributed by the companies that distributed newspapers and magazines. The key of that distribution model is that the retailer didn't have any risk . . . if a product didn't sell they could return it and get their money back (actually I don't even think they had to pay for product until it sold). There is still a degree of this, as I think the model is still true for mass merchants, but your mom and pop stores where everyone used to see a box of cards on the counter aren't generally able to participate with no risk anymore. . .

When this distribution model collapsed so did the wide spread distribution for many sets . . .

Yes, absolutely. These days, you really have to seek out cards, and know what you're looking for, and have some money to spend once you find them due to the big move toward premium hits.

But a-way, way, back, there were a lot more card collectors, plus a bunch of casual but consistent purchasers. I remember all kinds of kids bringing cards to school, sports and non-sports alike.

It meant there were a lot more cards made, and one was able to buy cards pretty much any time they left their homes. You could get them at a convenience (or liquor) store, a supermarket, a drug store (or pharmacy), a department store, and even the occasional roller skating rink (where I bought my packs from the freshly released original Superman movie with Christopher Reeve) and from the man on the ice cream truck, who I vividly remember stocked "Welcome Back, Kotter", "Chsrlie's Angels", "Happy Days" and "Star Wars" card packs at various times.
(Great selection, but the ice cream always came first. Cards are great, and gum in every pack, but c'mon, it's ice cream! I was tempted to get cards instead, though. I remember really wanting some of those new Star Wars cards in the green packs. Heh, the right choice. I have them now anyway.)

Sweet nostalgia. Wish I had more time to talk about this stuff...

I bought a pack of Donruss Tron every week for a summer from the Shaved Ice Truck man. It took a recent trade to finally own a full set! It cost me a whooping 50 cents a pack.