Recently even reputable dealers with presell guarantees have failed to deliver. . .

quote:

Originally posted by snoopy351:


I am trying to understand how that happens. It's pretty simple.

1. Company X is told by Crypto how many cases they are getting. (If we don't believe that C has this # accurately depicted, then we should be questioning every single release from every company.)

2.) I put in my order REQUEST for product Y with company X. (At this point in time no one should be pre-selling.)

3.) Company X responds several weeks later with my guaranteed allocation.

4.) I sell up to my allocation.

5.) Company X delivers product. Dealer then ships to collectors/buyers of presales.

What am I missing here guys? Seems straightforward to me.

I don't think you are missing anything for the business model perspective.

For me, when I see a product that I like I tell who I order boxes from "I would like 3 boxes of Dowton Abbey". Now, I know Dowton Abbey is coming out but it has not been put on pre-order yet. My dealer makes a note and when the pre-order comes out he says to his agent (I need 6 cases of Dowton Abbey) well, his guy is no longer an authorized dealer and he gets told, you can have 6 boxes (allocation) I get told, look there were guys who ordered 10,8,5,even 4 boxes. You are not getting any Dowton Abbey from me. Sorry.
Did I think I had a pre-order-Yes.
Did my dealer do anything wrong-NO.
It is just a transition time and so the collector, the small dealers and some others are feeling like there was a better way to smooth this transition from being able to buy from the manufacturer. Since the notice came with no warning, it has left a lot of people scrambling as to where to go and what to do.

quote:

Originally posted by barobehere:

quote:

Originally posted by snoopy351:


I am trying to understand how that happens. It's pretty simple.

1. Company X is told by Crypto how many cases they are getting. (If we don't believe that C has this # accurately depicted, then we should be questioning every single release from every company.)

2.) I put in my order REQUEST for product Y with company X. (At this point in time no one should be pre-selling.)

3.) Company X responds several weeks later with my guaranteed allocation.

4.) I sell up to my allocation.

5.) Company X delivers product. Dealer then ships to collectors/buyers of presales.

What am I missing here guys? Seems straightforward to me.

I don't think you are missing anything for the business model perspective.

For me, when I see a product that I like I tell who I order boxes from "I would like 3 boxes of Dowton Abbey". Now, I know Dowton Abbey is coming out but it has not been put on pre-order yet. My dealer makes a note and when the pre-order comes out he says to his agent (I need 6 cases of Dowton Abbey) well, his guy is no longer an authorized dealer and he gets told, you can have 6 boxes (allocation) I get told, look there were guys who ordered 10,8,5,even 4 boxes. You are not getting any Dowton Abbey from me. Sorry.
Did I think I had a pre-order-Yes.
Did my dealer do anything wrong-NO.
It is just a transition time and so the collector, the small dealers and some others are feeling like there was a better way to smooth this transition from being able to buy from the manufacturer. Since the notice came with no warning, it has left a lot of people scrambling as to where to go and what to do.

I hear you but I would argue that your dealer should NOT have solicted the product until he was given his allocation numbers. He solicited it during the request stage, not the final numbers stage.

quote:

Originally posted by snoopy351:

I hear you but I would argue that your dealer should NOT have solicted the product until he was given his allocation numbers. He solicited it during the request stage, not the final numbers stage.

The reality is that many dealers are offering product before allocations, getting on the hype wagon ASAP. By the time allocations are released, in the case of mega-popular sets like BBT and WD, prices are already escalated. So collectors have to wait until the market price set by early bird dealers is inflated to place orders? If that model keeps up, it's going to turn more and more people off.

Unless I'm missing something... in a perfect world everybody would wait til they're supposed to. But that never happens, and the little guys pay.

quote:

Originally posted by Ted Dastick Jr.:

quote:

Originally posted by snoopy351:

I hear you but I would argue that your dealer should NOT have solicted the product until he was given his allocation numbers. He solicited it during the request stage, not the final numbers stage.

The reality is that many dealers are offering product before allocations, getting on the hype wagon ASAP. By the time allocations are released, in the case of mega-popular sets like BBT and WD, prices are already escalated. So collectors have to wait until the market price set by early bird dealers is inflated to place orders? If that model keeps up, it's going to turn more and more people off.

Unless I'm missing something... in a perfect world everybody would wait til they're supposed to. But that never happens, and the little guys pay.

Well if that's the case, Ted, then the buyer shouldn't be disappointed if he buys from a dealer whose allocations are not confirmed.

It's a little like going on ebay and buying a case of baseball cards for $800 on a presale when direct cost is $1000 and all the other sites are preselling for $1200.00. Does the buyer not have some accountability in that example?

Now as jon stated earlier, if a buyer buys a hot Crypto product from a dealer who has always come thru, and it doesn't work out due to growing pains with the new distribution policy, well no one is at fault and everyone quickly adjusts to the new system. But if the dealer does it again and the buyer orders again, the both sides are at fault.

I still don't understand why this is so complicated. If "the reality is that many dealers are offering product before allocations," then don't buy from those dealers. Pretty simple.

I think in the end that's the way it's going to end up being. Don't take preorders until you know your allocations. Although that's not a guarantee. I've seen issues where an allocation wasn't expected and it was ok to expect to get your full order and then at the last minute...blam...
BTW, if a dealer gets allocated by a distributor selling direct to the public, that's...in my opinion...not fair. Authorized distributors that control the flow of product shouldn't be able to sell retail...in my opinion

quote:

Originally posted by snoopy351:

Now as jon stated earlier, if a buyer buys a hot Crypto product from a dealer who has always come thru, and it doesn't work out due to growing pains with the new distribution policy, well no one is at fault and everyone quickly adjusts to the new system. But if the dealer does it again and the buyer orders again, the both sides are at fault.

While in the case mentioned above it 'no ones fault,' but the collector is left high and dry and is probably forced to buy product at a much higher price (and the dealer loses sales). . . and that's my fear. . . I have my product 'reserved' with my dealer, but I have no idea if he'll be able to come through. . .

quote:

Originally posted by snoopy351:

I still don't understand why this is so complicated. If "the reality is that many dealers are offering product before allocations," then don't buy from those dealers. Pretty simple.

Wait. . . how are collectors supposed to know when allocations are set? Obviously if a collector gets left high and dry on a product they won't order from that dealer again, but by that point the damage is already done. And frankly, if a collector misses a set there is a good chance they won't be back for the next set.

This current distribution method may work out right now while these products are in 'feast' mode, but as soon as interest in the hot releases dies there is going to be a famine. . . what's going to happen when only a handful of dealers are carrying product that isn't hot?

People are already grumbling about WD3 and BBT3. . . Will it amount to anything, I don't know, but adding uncertainty like this isn't good for hardly anyone. . .

The problem with allocations is that distributors will allocate more of the "hot" product to people who buy a lot of other products from them. So if you buy 5 cases of something that just won't sell well maybe you'll get a case of The Walking Dead. The dealer in turn has to sell The Walking Dead for lots of money to make up for having to buy 5 cases of something else that they have to sell for a loss.

quote:

Originally posted by Chuck Bartowski:
The problem with allocations is that distributors will allocate more of the "hot" product to people who buy a lot of other products from them. So if you buy 5 cases of something that just won't sell well maybe you'll get a case of The Walking Dead. The dealer in turn has to sell The Walking Dead for lots of money to make up for having to buy 5 cases of something else that they have to sell for a loss.

EXACTLY! It corrupts the whole system when you have to buy product you don't want to get product you do want. To a certain extent there are always favorite sons, but the more outlets you have the fairer the distribution is. Once you pull that in and let a limited number of distributors control the flow of hot products it becomes like playing the only rigged game in town. And who is hurt most? Well the small guy of course. Small dealer, small collector, too bad for you.

quote:

Originally posted by webjon:

quote:

Originally posted by snoopy351:

Now as jon stated earlier, if a buyer buys a hot Crypto product from a dealer who has always come thru, and it doesn't work out due to growing pains with the new distribution policy, well no one is at fault and everyone quickly adjusts to the new system. But if the dealer does it again and the buyer orders again, the both sides are at fault.

While in the case mentioned above it 'no ones fault,' but the collector is left high and dry and is probably forced to buy product at a much higher price (and the dealer loses sales). . . and that's my fear. . . I have my product 'reserved' with my dealer, but I have no idea if he'll be able to come through. . .

quote:

Originally posted by snoopy351:

I still don't understand why this is so complicated. If "the reality is that many dealers are offering product before allocations," then don't buy from those dealers. Pretty simple.

Wait. . . how are collectors supposed to know when allocations are set? . .

Simple - you ask the person from whom you are ordering if his allocations are guaranteed. I just got an email last night asking me that exact question.

quote:

Originally posted by snoopy351:

Simple - you ask the person from whom you are ordering if his allocations are guaranteed. I just got an email last night asking me that exact question.

It seems like you don't want to understand this from the customer's perspective.

I've asked my dealer to get me a case of a product that doesn't even have a release date yet. Of course allocations aren't set. . . I have no idea when they'll be set, but I'm not going to ask around every week to find out if allocations are set. This is a product that releases in 6 months that I want a case of. . . Why should it be anymore complicated than email emailing the dealer I've worked with for a decade and say "Hey, get me a case of this?" Anything more than that is NOT simple.

Besides as has already been stated -- I want to work with my dealer. . . I want to work with the guy I've built a relationship with over the last decade that I can trust. I don't want to have to start building a relationship with a new dealer and be the low man on that totem pole.

quote:

Originally posted by webjon:

quote:

Originally posted by snoopy351:

Simple - you ask the person from whom you are ordering if his allocations are guaranteed. I just got an email last night asking me that exact question.

It seems like you don't want to understand this from the customer's perspective.

I've asked my dealer to get me a case of a product that doesn't even have a release date yet. Of course allocations aren't set. . . I have no idea when they'll be set, but I'm not going to ask around every week to find out if allocations are set. This is a product that releases in 6 months that I want a case of. . . Why should it be anymore complicated than email emailing the dealer I've worked with for a decade and say "Hey, get me a case of this?" Anything more than that is NOT simple.

Besides as has already been stated -- I want to work with my dealer. . . I want to work with the guy I've built a relationship with over the last decade that I can trust. I don't want to have to start building a relationship with a new dealer and be the low man on that totem pole.

I am a customer too - of course I understand it. What I don't understand is why you are asking a dealer to get you a product that doesn't even have a release date yet. That right there is setting you up for problems. Why not wait until orders are being taken? And if you do ask early, why can't your dealer say "My allocations are not set at this time but you will be notified when they are." It really shouldn't be this difficult.

quote:

Originally posted by snoopy351:

I am a customer too - of course I understand it. What I don't understand is why you are asking a dealer to get you a product that doesn't even have a release date yet. That right there is setting you up for problems. Why not wait until orders are being taken? And if you do ask early, why can't your dealer say "My allocations are not set at this time but you will be notified when they are." It really shouldn't be this difficult.

It shouldn't be any more difficult than me telling my dealer I'd like to order a case of Sons of Anarchy and having it available when the product releases. . . I don't care when the release date is. I don't care when allocations are set. I don't care when the distributor is taking orders. I don't care who my card dealer orders from. I don't care about any of that, and I don't want to care about any of it. It's a simple transaction: I tell my dealer what I want, when it comes in I pay for it.

Forcing the consumer to care about that other stuff -- any of it -- just creates a barrier to entry for that consumer. . . It's a lot easier for me to walk away than it is to worry about all those details. Frankly given Crypto's recent releases I'm worried that SOA will be $30-45 a box after 6 months anyway -- so any excuse not to buy it is going to keep me from pre-ordering.

And no dealer who thinks they can get a product is going to tell a long time customers "My allocations are not set at this time but you will be notified when they are." That's just asking collectors to go secure product somewhere else.

I don't think it's anything about presells in my eyes. It's all about the allocations. Snoopy and Barbo make great points but my big question was with the Crypto changes that took place that forces everyone including collectors and dealers have to go through a third party to purchase all Crypto products. Now the third parties are doing allocations that will drive the prices of the more popular release through the roof. How and why did this middle man come about? When I originally started this thread it was not about the presells at all but the extreme allocations that "The Special Exclusive Dealers/Distributors are doing and being strong armed by them to purchase Crypto Products that we didn't want in order to get the releases we do want. I wish the business model that Snoopy talks about would exist but until you have the product in hand the middle man and Crypto make no promises. My collectors and customers along with myself just want to be able to have some of these popular products to open without buying other unpopular releases or paying through the nose for those we want. I love opening releases but these new practices are killing my interest in Non Sport Cards. I'm ready to bag it all and find another hobby that isn't as stressful and away from the Manufacturer/Dealer/Distributor manipulation. I already miss my hobby.. 52 years in the making.

quote:

Originally posted by snoopy351:

I am a customer too - of course I understand it. What I don't understand is why you are asking a dealer to get you a product that doesn't even have a release date yet. That right there is setting you up for problems. Why not wait until orders are being taken? And if you do ask early, why can't your dealer say "My allocations are not set at this time but you will be notified when they are." It really shouldn't be this difficult.

That is actually what is happening for the most part on the so-called "hot" releases, but you have to admit that this is causing dealers to have to buy product they might not necessarily want in order to get a good allocation of the "hot" product, and that in turn leads to higher prices for the general costumer on those "hot" product unless the costumer is also willing to buy other product at regular prices.

quote:

Originally posted by TWS:
Well we just heard that our original Big Bang Theory Latest Release was allocated from 120 boxes (10 Cases) to just 3 boxes.. Seems like now that Cryptozoic has everyone going to it's Distributor and Dealer List we'll be not able to carry any Cryptozoic Products.. It's liable to put us out of the business altogether. Sure they would sell us all the products nobody wants but anything that's good we get slammed on allocations. Not cut a little but extremely. We have always bought directly from Cryptozoic but were forced to go through third parties. Sorry to rant here everyone..
I sure did miss everyone at the Fall Philly Show but my Grandson had his 1st Birthday that weekend! BJ, John, Monica, Chris, Sherri, Tony, Harris, Mr and Mrs T, Kevin, T Bear, La La, Brian, Derek, Tom, Tom Jr, Michael B, Rob, Denise, John W, Steve, Sean I missed seeing you guys.. All you other guys ya know I missed you too! My fingers are just getting tired so I'll email you later.

Am I understanding this correctly. You did not order from one of their distributors, but from someone ordering from one of their distributors, right? I was told that one of their distributors haven't made up their mind on how allocations for TWD where going to take place. They were waiting to see how things were going to work out with TBBT. I ordered through one of these guys a case of the last TWD, and got 3 boxes. Cringing at the thought of the next one.

quote:

Originally posted by snoopy351:
What I don't understand is why you are asking a dealer to get you a product that doesn't even have a release date yet. That right there is setting you up for problems. Why not wait until orders are being taken? And if you do ask early, why can't your dealer say "My allocations are not set at this time but you will be notified when they are." It really shouldn't be this difficult.

I really was going to stay out of this...

Problem is that orders ARE being taken but it seems those orders are not guaranteed until after the order date is passed and they decide if they sold too much product.

Now, with BBT and WD it's pretty simple... I tell my salesman I want ALL I CAN GET. I know I can sell it. We all knew up front there were going to be allocations.

But, a product like Downton Abbey I don't want all I can get. I want as many boxes as my customers want. Now, it's a safe bet there won't be allocations, but do I wait until after orders are due and I find out there are no allocations to begin pre-selling it? And this goes for all the products that CZE has solicited. I received a solicitation today for a product with no release date and orders aren't due until JANUARY. But, they are taking orders for it. So, when do I pass the ordering information on to my customers?

There's no simple solution to keep customers happy. First ordered first filled won't work, then many of us get none if we don't see the email for orders within 10 minutes of it being sent. And there is the story I was told of the large online seller that offered cash up front to purchase the entire print run of Walking Dead Season 2. Do we really want that?

Ed

A distributor used to be that and not
Also a retailer,this leads plainly to conflict
Of intrest!!
Although having said that there are many
Trustworthy people who do both but some cut out
Of the equation.
Buying cardboard shouldnt be this hard.

The key is if the distributor is also a dealer and sells lots of the "Hot" product then that is naughty, if they are fair on all items then good.

quote:

Originally posted by Tattoox:

Am I understanding this correctly. You did not order from one of their distributors, but from someone ordering from one of their distributors, right? I was told that one of their distributors haven't made up their mind on how allocations for TWD where going to take place. They were waiting to see how things were going to work out with TBBT. I ordered through one of these guys a case of the last TWD, and got 3 boxes. Cringing at the thought of the next one.

No, I ordered from the Cryptozoic Approved Distributor. I always order enough cases for my collectors who want this release. I ordered some for myself as a collector from the same Cryptozoic Approved Distributor.. I ordered 10 cases/120 boxes.. My Cryptozoic Distributor GTS said I could only have 3 boxes which does me absolutely no good. None for me to open as a collector, none for my customers who are now totally disappointed and none to sell in my store.

I have been allocated by Cryptozoic when I was an approved dealer with them but ever since they cast all of their dealers and distributors aside like the evening trash have things gotten completely ridiculous. Cryptozoic would allocate me 30% to 75% of what I ordered for the popular releases. Not the insulting 2% of what I ordered through their Distributors.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: TWS,