quote:

Originally posted by dobo98985:
Yes Tattoox- product will be avail from a greater source of sellers. Many of those sellers actually flippers who had easier access to BBT this year than in past years. Since they aren't collectors, they have no interest in holding product so are willing to sell for marginal profit (even loss) in order to make sure they recoup their investment. Good for collectors- bad for investors.

True Chesspieceface, no Kaley; however, Nimoy makes up for the difference there. I think the lack of other stuff- i.e. printing plates and dual costume cards- is what is making this release falter in relation to other years- plus the allocation issue mentioned above.

I can see the reasoning of your first paragraph if by sellers you mean the first generation buyers. I think you are saying there were fewer dealers, but many of the buyers were not collectors but were flippers planning on selling most, if not all, of their boxes from the start. You expect they will panic and dump if the product is not hot. Is that right?

The second paragraph is where I disagree a bit. The Nimoy is a good card to add, but it doesn't make up for no Kaley. Also, outside of the other 6 very limited main cast, there are no significant guest star autographs besides Nimoy and Spiner. Maybe the season just didn't have any that could be signed, but there are a few repeats and the new ones are unknown names in minor roles. Single swatch costume cards won't carry much value either, as you said. So I think there just isn't as much here as in prior sets, especially when you consider that most people will not get those one per case signatures.

Now this doesn't mean that the boxes won't sell, but they may not sell for the premium that some buyers might have been counting on.

quote:

Originally posted by dobo98985:
Yes Tattoox- product will be avail from a greater source of sellers. Many of those sellers actually flippers who had easier access to BBT this year than in past years. Since they aren't collectors, they have no interest in holding product so are willing to sell for marginal profit (even loss) in order to make sure they recoup their investment. Good for collectors- bad for investors.

True Chesspieceface, no Kaley; however, Nimoy makes up for the difference there. I think the lack of other stuff- i.e. printing plates and dual costume cards- is what is making this release falter in relation to other years- plus the allocation issue mentioned above.

I have no idea who CZE sold to and how they allocated.

But I can tell you that Diamond and GTS only sell wholesale to licensed dealers.

I guess some dealers could be considered flippers. In some peoples eyes all dealers are flippers.

But my definition of a flipper is different, and if I was a full time dealer, I would be greatly offended being called a flipper.

Maybe CZE ran off some collectors with their nonsense.

I would think a Nimoy card would be more sought after. Much older and larger fan base.

quote:

Originally posted by Tattoox:

quote:

Originally posted by dobo98985:
Yes Tattoox- product will be avail from a greater source of sellers. Many of those sellers actually flippers who had easier access to BBT this year than in past years. Since they aren't collectors, they have no interest in holding product so are willing to sell for marginal profit (even loss) in order to make sure they recoup their investment. Good for collectors- bad for investors.

True Chesspieceface, no Kaley; however, Nimoy makes up for the difference there. I think the lack of other stuff- i.e. printing plates and dual costume cards- is what is making this release falter in relation to other years- plus the allocation issue mentioned above.

I have no idea who CZE sold to and how they allocated.

But I can tell you that Diamond and GTS only sell wholesale to licensed dealers.

I guess some dealers could be considered flippers. In some peoples eyes all dealers are flippers.

But my definition of a flipper is different, and if I was a full time dealer, I would be greatly offended being called a flipper.

Maybe CZE ran off some collectors with their nonsense.

I would think a Nimoy card would be more sought after. Much older and larger fan base.

I call the sellers who- when you look at their seller list- have only BBT for sale or a ton of sports items and BBT as the only non-sport items for sale.
There were quite a few from when I checked who was selling the ones I wanted.
I would think that many people who already had Diamond or GTS accounts were offered Cryptozoic titles when they became avail to Diamond and GTS in greater qty due to the new distribution format. And with D&A getting more also- they were also able to sell to their existing customers- most of whom don't need any sort of resale license to purchase from them.
I would think that many of Diamond's, GTS's and D&A's customers who never bought a non-sport title ever would jump on the bandwagon of a hot non-sport title in the hopes of a quick flip for big profit.
I would call these folks flippers as they didn't sell non-sports before but were trying to hone in on fast profit now because they could.
If others see this differently, then so be it. We all have different ideas as to what a flipper is.

quote:

Originally posted by dobo98985:

quote:

Originally posted by Tattoox:

quote:

Originally posted by dobo98985:
Yes Tattoox- product will be avail from a greater source of sellers. Many of those sellers actually flippers who had easier access to BBT this year than in past years. Since they aren't collectors, they have no interest in holding product so are willing to sell for marginal profit (even loss) in order to make sure they recoup their investment. Good for collectors- bad for investors.

True Chesspieceface, no Kaley; however, Nimoy makes up for the difference there. I think the lack of other stuff- i.e. printing plates and dual costume cards- is what is making this release falter in relation to other years- plus the allocation issue mentioned above.

I have no idea who CZE sold to and how they allocated.

But I can tell you that Diamond and GTS only sell wholesale to licensed dealers.

I guess some dealers could be considered flippers. In some peoples eyes all dealers are flippers.

But my definition of a flipper is different, and if I was a full time dealer, I would be greatly offended being called a flipper.

Maybe CZE ran off some collectors with their nonsense.

I would think a Nimoy card would be more sought after. Much older and larger fan base.

I call the sellers who- when you look at their seller list- have only BBT for sale or a ton of sports items and BBT as the only non-sport items for sale.
There were quite a few from when I checked who was selling the ones I wanted.
I would think that many people who already had Diamond or GTS accounts were offered Cryptozoic titles when they became avail to Diamond and GTS in greater qty due to the new distribution format. And with D&A getting more also- they were also able to sell to their existing customers- most of whom don't need any sort of resale license to purchase from them.
I would think that many of Diamond's, GTS's and D&A's customers who never bought a non-sport title ever would jump on the bandwagon of a hot non-sport title in the hopes of a quick flip for big profit.
I would call these folks flippers as they didn't sell non-sports before but were trying to hone in on fast profit now because they could.
If others see this differently, then so be it. We all have different ideas as to what a flipper is.

Nope! I will be allocated the same, if not worse, since I don't support the entire CZE line. Myself and my customers only want TWD, no interest in BBT. I'm not a flipper.

Cryptozoic Direct Distributors:

GTS
Diamond
and two in Canada


Authorized Online Dealers:

Barrington Square
D & A
Hill's Wholesale


Do people understand the difference between distributors and dealers?

quote:

Originally posted by Tattoox:
Cryptozoic Direct Distributors:

GTS
Diamond
and two in Canada


Authorized Online Dealers:

Barrington Square
D & A
Hill's Wholesale


Do people understand the difference between distributors and dealers?

I'm not sure what the difference between Direct Distributors and online dealers has to do with flippers.

I ask you- if I sell only sports cards- for the past 10 years- have an account with GTS- buy only sports cards for the past 10 years- and now have access to BBT from them only because they now are getting say 100 cases of it instead of 20 in past years so are able to get me some instead of giving it to only their non-sport customers- I buy a case because I have seen the profit margins in past years- open it- and sell the cards on Ebay- this being my only non-sports items listed- 25 items among 1000 sports items- am I a flipper?

Yes, pretty much so.

D & A is asking about 3 time more for one of their TWD items. Are they any different than a sports company trying to make a profit?

A true flipper is not a business owner or a true collector. They buy something with only $ signs in their eyes.

quote:

Originally posted by Tattoox:
Yes, pretty much so.

That's all I am saying.
If you look at the seller list of some of the people selling BBT, you will see that they have NO other non-sport items for sale- just BBT alone or BBT with a ton of sports items.
When Crypto went the route of 6 people getting product direct from them, they let go control of who, ultimately, gets their product.
Now, almost anyone who wants it can get it- granted to a small degree than most wish they could- especially on titles like BBT and WD.
We now see how that waters down the product- more people getting it and selling it- thinking they will make a fortune but settling for break-even or less just to get out of it as too many were thinking the same and too much competition is killing them.

quote:

Originally posted by Tattoox:
D & A is asking about 3 time more for one of their TWD items. Are they any different than a sports company trying to make a profit?

A true flipper is not a business owner or a true collector. They buy something with only $ signs in their eyes.

It's up to you to pre-order at their current price- but I will say that they are selling BBT now for less than what they were getting for pre-orders. And you can get it even less on Ebay than they are currently asking.
Not to say that will happen for WD, but if the same thing happens and flippers get involved and start to worry when everyone is selling it on Ebay, the prices should fall quickly just like BBT.

quote:

A true flipper is not a business owner or a true collector. They buy something with only $ signs in their eyes.

I disagree with this. I am a business owner and I went into business with the hopes of making money. I didn't go into business to break-even, lose money or help with world peace. It is how I make a living and the only way I can do that is by making money. If making money comes from buying something and selling it for a profit- even if it is something I might not usually buy or like, then it is part of business.

quote:

Originally posted by dobo98985:

quote:

Originally posted by Tattoox:
D & A is asking about 3 time more for one of their TWD items. Are they any different than a sports company trying to make a profit?

A true flipper is not a business owner or a true collector. They buy something with only $ signs in their eyes.

It's up to you to pre-order at their current price- but I will say that they are selling BBT now for less than what they were getting for pre-orders. And you can get it even less on Ebay than they are currently asking.
Not to say that will happen for WD, but if the same thing happens and flippers get involved and start to worry when everyone is selling it on Ebay, the prices should fall quickly just like BBT.

I wonder why that is.

Chase cards not interesting people as much?

Frustration over the new procedures?

High profit flippability isn't there?

BBT fans aren't card collectors, so new card collectors are dropping off?

Probably all of the above.

quote:

Originally posted by dobo98985:

quote:

A true flipper is not a business owner or a true collector. They buy something with only $ signs in their eyes.

I disagree with this. I am a business owner and I went into business with the hopes of making money. I didn't go into business to break-even, lose money or help with world peace. It is how I make a living and the only way I can do that is by making money. If making money comes from buying something and selling it for a profit- even if it is something I might not usually buy or like, then it is part of business.

Then you can't really blame sport card dealers for branching out into non-sport cards to make some money on a hot product. They are solicited the product anyways.

Are you a card dealer, or just a collector?

quote:

Originally posted by Tattoox:

quote:

Originally posted by dobo98985:

quote:

A true flipper is not a business owner or a true collector. They buy something with only $ signs in their eyes.

I disagree with this. I am a business owner and I went into business with the hopes of making money. I didn't go into business to break-even, lose money or help with world peace. It is how I make a living and the only way I can do that is by making money. If making money comes from buying something and selling it for a profit- even if it is something I might not usually buy or like, then it is part of business.

Then you can't really blame sport card dealers for branching out into non-sport cards to make some money on a hot product. They are solicited the product anyways.

Are you a card dealer, or just a collector?

I don't blame anyone trying to make a living by doing whatever he/she can do- as long as it is legal. If someone has access to something and can profit off it by selling it- then so be it. You might consider them flippers- but as long as business has been around- so have flippers.

I own my own gift basket business. I do have a few baskets with sports themes- and have been known to put packs of trading cards in them from time to time- but that is a minority of my business. The baskets I sell mostly are chocolate and wine centric.

I am not a dealer, but have been collecting for many years- both sports and non-sports. It used to be fun- until recent. Now, with the tons of promos for each set- some of which are impossible to get- and all the allocations- and eventual dumping of product- it isn't fun or worth it anymore. I am a bit OCD and if I want to collect a set, I tend to want everything for it- promos- set- inserts- binder- etc. If someone puts out a set and has 25 promos for it- some of which only 1 person has- and they are not willing to part with any for what I consider a reasonable amount- I tend to not want to collect it. I know it sounds weird, but that's the way I am. Maybe the time has come to just stop collecting.

[/QUOTE]
It used to be fun- until recent. Now, with the tons of promos for each set- some of which are impossible to get- and all the allocations- and eventual dumping of product- it isn't fun or worth it anymore. I am a bit OCD and if I want to collect a set, I tend to want everything for it- promos- set- inserts- binder- etc. If someone puts out a set and has 25 promos for it- some of which only 1 person has- and they are not willing to part with any for what I consider a reasonable amount- I tend to not want to collect it. I know it sounds weird, but that's the way I am. Maybe the time has come to just stop collecting.[/QUOTE]

Are you my long lost twin. That's exactly what I have been saying for about a year now.

Looks like I will be going for base sets and some mini-master sets from now on, for the most part.

I had to have all the Grimm promos at a reasonable price. I finally did it. That was kinda fun. The Applecards one, and some other promos this year was quite frustrating.

I made a list nearly 6 months ago of 4 cards that I wanted. If I didn't get 2-3 of them by Christmas I was just going to quit cold turkey.

I did it once with Bowen Marvel mini-busts, but that only lasted a year. OCD here too, I got them all.

Well, I did get two of those cards, so I'm going to stick it out a little longer. Maybe my wife got one of the other two for me for Christmas.

quote:

Originally posted by Tattoox:
A true flipper is not a business owner or a true collector. They buy something with only $ signs in their eyes.

I half agree with your definition. Any dealer, full time or part time, is not a flipper. Anyone deriving income and paying taxes from card sales is not a flipper, even though they may collect cards themselves.

But a true collector can be a flipper if the product he/she is turning over is not one that they would normally buy or have any interest in buying. They are purchasing that product solely for the purpose of re-selling to someone else at a higher price.

I make that distinction because there are many true collectors who go half way. They buy something they like, usually in cases, and intend to keep their favorite items and sell off the rest of the cards to somewhat offset their purchase cost. In that case, I really don't consider those people flippers because they do have an interest in the particular product and are just trying to make it cheaper to afford.

So, to recap, if a sportscard dealer decides to sell a non-sport product that is not flipping, that is business. But if a sportscard collector, a non-sport collector, or someone who collects no cards at all, decides to buy any type of card product solely in order to sell it at a premium, that is flipping. And some times it works and sometimes it doesn't.

quote:

Originally posted by Raven:

quote:

Originally posted by Tattoox:
A true flipper is not a business owner or a true collector. They buy something with only $ signs in their eyes.

I half agree with your definition. Any dealer, full time or part time, is not a flipper. Anyone deriving income and paying taxes from card sales is not a flipper, even though they may collect cards themselves.

But a true collector can be a flipper if the product he/she is turning over is not one that they would normally buy or have any interest in buying. They are purchasing that product solely for the purpose of re-selling to someone else at a higher price.

I make that distinction because there are many true collectors who go half way. They buy something they like, usually in cases, and intend to keep their favorite items and sell off the rest of the cards to somewhat offset their purchase cost. In that case, I really don't consider those people flippers because they do have an interest in the particular product and are just trying to make it cheaper to afford.

So, to recap, if a sportscard dealer decides to sell a non-sport product that is not flipping, that is business. But if a sportscard collector, a non-sport collector, or someone who collects no cards at all, decides to buy any type of card product solely in order to sell it at a premium, that is flipping. And some times it works and sometimes it doesn't.

So you do agree with me. Just said it in ten times the number of words. I consider myself a true collector, but have rarely bought a case for myself.

quote:

Originally posted by Tattoox:
So you do agree with me. Just said it in ten times the number of words. I consider myself a true collector, but have rarely bought a case for myself.

Well if you want to put it that way, I almost always agree with you Tattoox.

quote:

Originally posted by Raven:

quote:

Originally posted by Tattoox:
So you do agree with me. Just said it in ten times the number of words. I consider myself a true collector, but have rarely bought a case for myself.

Well if you want to put it that way, I almost always agree with you Tattoox.

You do? I almost never have noticed.
I wife has learned, but won't admit, that I'm almost always right. She hates my OCD. My planning. But it makes conventions and things go smoother. Disneyland this year was a breeze.

I've noticed people get upset at " Flippers " who are nothing more than gamblers really, they buy a product and hope to make a profit on it next week, when they do people go mad but there must be times when these flippers place their bets and lose just like any other gamble, we don't tend to hear about those times.