quote:

Originally posted by chesspieceface:
Bran the Superwarg, especially with the boost his powers are getting now, should have the ability to control one or more dragons at a time, so that might also play into it. The last time we saw him, the old man/tree being did tell him that he would never walk again, but that he would fly. Wonder what he meant by that?

Haha, that is exactly the theory I just heard! I can't believe it never occurred to me before to make that connection, but it just seems so natural. We know Daenerys doesn't have complete control over the dragons but she CAN easily reason with Bran. I just don't think it'd be Drogon since she has more of a connection with him, and now that Jojen is gone, if Bran took control over, eg: Viserion, who would command the other?

quote:

Originally posted by chesspieceface:
It's been long believed by book readers that Rhaegar Targaryen (Dany's nearly perfect other brother) and Ned Stark's sister, Lyanna, are Jon Snow's real parents. The way people have named the theory without outright spoiling things for people who may not want to know is "R+L=J".

I like that theory. It kind of pushes credibility a bit because that would make Jon Dany's nephew and she looks younger than he does, but what the heck. The only thing is that I don't think the TV show made enough mention of Lyanna or Rhaegar to let fans pick up on the hint, if there was supposed to be one. There are so many characters here, when you said the names it did not register right away as to who they were.

And rwn410, we are not in disagreement at all. I could see Snow winding up on the throne and fans would be just as happy with it as an ending. But in purely considering the most popular characters on the show, I would place him behind Dany and Tyrone, and possibly neck and neck with Arya, although her whole faceless man journey is getting a bit too strange. I hope it gets to the point soon.

In fact everything has to get to the point soon, because if there are really only two seasons left, they have few actual episodes to sort out the fates of all these characters. I can understand people thinking that it won't be enough time if they stick to that schedule.

quote:

Originally posted by rwn410:

quote:

Originally posted by chesspieceface:
Bran the Superwarg, especially with the boost his powers are getting now, should have the ability to control one or more dragons at a time, so that might also play into it. The last time we saw him, the old man/tree being did tell him that he would never walk again, but that he would fly. Wonder what he meant by that?

Haha, that is exactly the theory I just heard! I can't believe it never occurred to me before to make that connection, but it just seems so natural. We know Daenerys doesn't have complete control over the dragons but she CAN easily reason with Bran. I just don't think it'd be Drogon since she has more of a connection with him, and now that Jojen is gone, if Bran took control over, eg: Viserion, who would command the other?

I arrived at that independently, and even before I read the "no, but you'll fly" line, so there could be something to it, however the whole "warging" business has really been downplayed on the series as opposed to how often it comes up in the series.
Even Jon Snow wakes up with the taste of blood in his mouth as he's unconsciously warging into his direwolf while sleeping. If the ability to do it strong in the Starks, as it seems to be, that lends something to Lyanna Stark being his mother, but there could be a chance that Robert Baratheon is his father. Robert was deeply in love with her, as he's said to Ned and even his wife cersei in one of his last talks with her before his hunting accident. Jon Snow is "black of hair", after all, like King Robert's other illegitimate kids.

For the discussion's sake, I'll also note that a big change for book to series is Tyrion's traveling companions on the way to meet Dany. It's Jorah in the HBO series, but in the books Tyrion is travelling with the now-teenaged Targaryen boy supposedly killed by the Mountain (one of the kids the Red Viper of Dorne was trying to avenge). The intention is to wed that kid to his Aunt Dany, since the Targaryens couple up that way. Perhaps more importantly, they're also traveling with a dragon trainer. So if those characters are gone, as they seem to be, some other way to control the dragons (warging, for instance) becomes even more important to the story.

quote:

Originally posted by Raven:

quote:

Originally posted by chesspieceface:
It's been long believed by book readers that Rhaegar Targaryen (Dany's nearly perfect other brother) and Ned Stark's sister, Lyanna, are Jon Snow's real parents. The way people have named the theory without outright spoiling things for people who may not want to know is "R+L=J".

I like that theory. It kind of pushes credibility a bit because that would make Jon Dany's nephew and she looks younger than he does, but what the heck. The only thing is that I don't think the TV show made enough mention of Lyanna or Rhaegar to let fans pick up on the hint, if there was supposed to be one. There are so many characters here, when you said the names it did not register right away as to who they were.

And rwn410, we are not in disagreement at all. I could see Snow winding up on the throne and fans would be just as happy with it as an ending. But in purely considering the most popular characters on the show, I would place him behind Dany and Tyrone, and possibly neck and neck with Arya, although her whole faceless man journey is getting a bit too strange. I hope it gets to the point soon.

In fact everything has to get to the point soon, because if there are really only two seasons left, they have few actual episodes to sort out the fates of all these characters. I can understand people thinking that it won't be enough time if they stick to that schedule.

Ned and Robert (and Robert and cersei) talked about Lyanna in season 1 and they've gone out of their way to talk about Rhaegar this season, so maybe they're trying to familiarize the show viewers with him a little better now, so there's not a collective "who?" from viewers should Rhaegar be Jon's real father. As for ages, I think Dany is supposed to be in her early 20's and while Robb Stark was still a teenager when he died and Jon Snow is also about 18. It's a little hard to see that when the actor playing him looks about 30. Emilia can still pass for early 20s, I think. They're both 28, but Kit's beard makes him look older.

A lot of points being discussed now so I'll tackle a few of them here...

1) The Starks do have royal blood in them. Before Aegon conquered Westeros, the Starks were the Kings in the North.

2) I seem to recall reading somewhere that the Baratheons also have royal blood in them which seems likely given the tradition and history of great houses intermarrying. In fact, it's likely that all the nobles in Westeros are related in some way.

3) R + L = J seems pretty obvious given the clues that exist. Ned Stark (aka Mr. Honor & Duty) really doesn't seem the type that would cheat on his wife and the fact that he hid things about Jon's parentage even from his best friend Robert implies that there is something to hide there. Given how Robert felt about Ned's sister and the fact that what Rhaegar did to her was the spark that ignited Roberts rebellion against the Targaryens, he would have insisted on killing Jon if he was indeed the result of that incident.

4) Regarding the ages of Dany and Jon, both were teens when the series started. In the books, Jon was about 16 at the start and Dany was about 13. For the show, it was more like Dany being 16 and Jon likely being about the same 16 to 18. Also, while uncommon, aunts and uncles can be younger than nieces or nephews. Rhaegar was an adult and parent when he died and that was before Dany, his sister, was even born.

5) Dany is going to be very important to the outcome of the series given the whole Ice vs Fire undercurrent that permeates the entire saga. The dragons in particular are going to be needed to defeat the White Walkers. It's no coincidence that the return of magical forces in the world are all happening at the same time. The direwolves, the return of the dragons, the red comet in the sky, the stuff with Melissandre and Beric Dondarrion, the return of the white walkers and Bran's journey to the children of the forest (the tree guy). These are all elements building up to something big in the end.

6) As to who is going to end up on the throne in the end, I'm leaning towards Jon & Dany marrying and ruling side by side. One of Stannis's philosophies is that he needs to save the kingdom in order to win the kingdom, which is one of his primary motivations for answering the call for help that the Nights Watch put out a few seasons back. The thing is that I think this will apply more to Jon and Dany instead. The pair of them will team up to defeat the White Walker menace and in doing so will win over the support of the people of Westeros instead of her just conquering them.

7) As for heirs, Stannis now has no clear heir but that could change if he has any more children before he dies. With regard to Dany, while she has nobody at the moment, we should take the whole infertile thing with a grain of salt given the fact that the source of that information was a known liar with a grudge against her.

8) Bran's journey is one that isn't as clear. He is learning the ways of the force, so to speak, from the children of the forest but how exactly that will play into the overall conflict remains to be seen. The whole "you'll fly" thing could be a reference to his warging abilities or even greenseeing which is a combination of dreaming about the future and using weirwood trees for clairvoyance.

9) Arya's journey isn't just about making her a better killer. Becoming a faceless one is about learning respect for death and how it can be a gift and not just a punishment. It is a journey that consists of service to others and shedding your own identity in the process. That means letting go of the past and becoming no one in the process. Arya will always struggle with this until she can truly let go of her quest for vengeance and abandon her list. It'll be interesting to see how her storyline plays out in the future.

10) Sansa is a wildcard. Her storyline on the show has gone far beyond the books and exactly how she is going to fit into the outcome of the series is unknown. She has the potential to become a major player in Westeros and has been growing stronger and stronger through her adversity and it'll be interesting to see where her journey is going to take her.

That's enough rambling for now, methinks.

quote:

Originally posted by Obi Wan Chrisobi:
A lot of points being discussed now so I'll tackle a few of them here...

5) It's no coincidence that the return of magical forces in the world are all happening at the same time. The direwolves, the return of the dragons, the red comet in the sky, the stuff with Melissandre and Beric Dondarrion, the return of the white walkers and Bran's journey to the children of the forest (the tree guy). These are all elements building up to something big in the end.

Good stuff, and in addition to the above, when the magic returned full force with the birth of the dragons, the existing wargs became more powerful and the production of the explosive green stuff used by Tyrion to defeat Stannis' navy at the Blackwater speeded up exponentially. Maester Pycelle was at a loss to explain it, but we know why.

It's the magic, man!

quote:

Originally posted by Obi Wan Chrisobi:
A lot of points being discussed now so I'll tackle a few of them here...

1) The Starks do have royal blood in them. Before Aegon conquered Westeros, the Starks were the Kings in the North.

2) I seem to recall reading somewhere that the Baratheons also have royal blood in them which seems likely given the tradition and history of great houses intermarrying. In fact, it's likely that all the nobles in Westeros are related in some way.

5) Dany is going to be very important to the outcome of the series given the whole Ice vs Fire undercurrent that permeates the entire saga. The dragons in particular are going to be needed to defeat the White Walkers. It's no coincidence that the return of magical forces in the world are all happening at the same time. The direwolves, the return of the dragons, the red comet in the sky, the stuff with Melissandre and Beric Dondarrion, the return of the white walkers and Bran's journey to the children of the forest (the tree guy). These are all elements building up to something big in the end.

Yes it is a good stuff CPF and a lot of it I didn't get before the book references came in.

The only comments I would make regarding your points Obi Wan are these:

I think your right about all the houses having some nobility attached, it just might not be royal blood. Or it might be very diluted royal blood by all this inter-marrying of houses. The title of Lord and Lady can be awarded by the King and I'm not sure that King of the North might not be an awarded title. In any event all of this nobility does not have a claim to the Iron Throne if they are 251st in line of succession. I would think that only the legitimate heirs to any King that once reigned could make a true claim.

Which kind of discounts Jon Snow. Even if the theory turns out to be true, he would not be considered a legitimate heir of the Targaryens, would he? He may have enough King's blood that he needed protecting from Robert, but he would have to hook up with Dany to be King I would imagine. And I would not know how well that aunt-nephew would really go, even in Westerious.

The other problem I have with it is why didn't Ned Stark just tell his wife why he kept the child, if he was really his sister's son. She could have kept the secret and she would have at least accepted the boy. Remember that she believed her bad luck stemmed from her having prayed he would live and promising to accept him, only to not being able to keep her promise because the child was from her husband's supposed affair when he was off fighting the war. It just seems that the truth would have made things a lot happier.

Finally, this is just my wish. There has been all kinds of fantasy in this series from the beginning. White Walkers, Gods of Light, dragons, faceless men, visions, dead brought back and everything else, but it is the human drama that is the most compelling. Most of these people do not do magic themselves, but may be victims of it. I do hope that this series is not going to descend into a Hogwarths repeat of dueling sorcerers or spell casting or enchanted swords. It would ruin the sorrow and sacrifice of the human element to have it all decided on who comes up with the most powerful wand at the end. Just MHO.

I agree about it being the normal human interaction that drives this show.
Some of my favorite scenes on the series have been simple conversations, and that I think those do remain at the heart of HBO's "Game of Thrones".

Brienne and Jaime talking about his "oathbreaking". Ned talking to his sons about the meaning of honor. Theon's first frosty meeting with his father Balon after being with the Starks for a decade, and Tyrion's similar discussions with his own father, whose love he'd desperately sought his entire life. Tyrion and Oberyn talking in the black cell. Davos' final goodbye to Shireen. Pretty much every conversation Tyrion and Varys ever had. Littlefinger and cersei regarding the meaning of "power". The Hound's key scenes with Arya and Sansa. Arya and Syrio Forel while "water dancing", and it goes on and on, really.

There not a single special effect in these scenes, and yet still there is the king of magic that only superb actors in a well-written human drama can conjure. I think I'm looking forward to episode 10 this year more than I have any season past, and that's about the highest praise I can give.

Ahh, kind of blown up a lot of theories last night, and if you don't want to know, stop reading right now.

Jon Snow got the old Julius Caesar send off. Only surprising really because he was the pretty boy hero and I thought the writers would keep him around. But this is GOT and the character was as naïve as the other Stark men to think that his brothers-in-arms would follow him just because he was right.

I was truly surprised that Stannis got it so fast. He really got no benefit at all from his Red Witch. I kind of figured Brienne might get him, but I thought it would be in next season. I knew about Cersei's story coming, did not know about her daughter, but that is actually pretty much of a given. Cersei had gotten the prediction that all her children would die before her, so I don't think her last son will be here for very long either.

Now the paper today had some notion that Kit Harrington might return in mid-season next year, apparently back from the dead and an avenging angel. Don't know if there is a hole for that in the books with the God of Light thing.

Would hate to see it though. If you kill a main human character they should stay dead. On the other hand I don't know what all that R+L=J was about if Jon was going to die anyway.

Bottom line, I don't know. Excellent finale though.

I agree. Good finale. The show is at its peak now, pretty impressive considering this is the end of Season 5.

They didn't actually show Brienne off Stannis. She might have struck the tree instead and spared him. On this show, I don't believe anyone's ever dead (Syrio Forel, The Hound, etc.) unless they show the body, and sometimes not even then (Jon Snow, Lady Stark).

Jon Snow is a warg and the Red Lady IS there with him. I definitely wouldn't count him out yet.

quote:

Originally posted by chesspieceface:
I agree. Good finale. The show is at its peak now, pretty impressive considering this is the end of Season 5.

They didn't actually show Brienne off Stannis. She might have struck the tree instead and spared him. On this show, I don't believe anyone's ever dead (Syrio Forel, The Hound, etc.) unless they show the body, and sometimes not even then (Jon Snow, Lady Stark).

Jon Snow is a warg and the Red Lady IS there with him. I definitely wouldn't count him out yet.

I know that I read that Lady Stark came back as a zombie, or white walker or something, in the books. I also read that the producers said they weren't bringing her back in the show, but it can always change.

It seems to me that the magic or fantasy aspect is really taking over as these characters keep moving deeper into the story. It's like using a "get out of jail free card" if, all of a sudden, you can go back in time, or switch bodies or just curse people and watch them die. I don't like it because it renders meaningless what came before if it can all just be erased by someone's magic, that they never knew they had.

It's a cheat. Let's bring back the entire cast.

So we shall see how much the writers cheat.

Not even kind of a cheat, in my view. People coming back to life may make death meaningless in our world, sure, but not in theirs. This is very much a fantasy world, and the reader/viewer has to accept that going into it or else their reactions to the more fantastical occurrences will be akin to someone who dislikes singing nevertheless watching a musical.

So GoT Season 6 is set to premiere in April and George R.R. Martin has finally admitted that he can't finish the 6th book The Winds of Winter, even though he has had plenty of time.

All the deadlines are stressing him out, he says.

The show producers have an outline of the plot, but since they are now ahead of the writing they can do what they want I guess. An interesting situation.

Maybe Martin should just watch the show and transcribe the dialogue to his book. That's one way to finish it.

I may change my tune should he never finish them, but as of now, I look on this as very good news.
I've read the 5 books and like everyone else who has, have been looking forward to the 6th, but I'd rather the TV show ended first at this point, if only to flummox those in our number who bizarrely seem to take (perverse) joy in spoiling the HBO show for those who hadn't read them.
Take your time, George. Better to do it right than to do it fast...