So I'm starting to get worried that the writers of Game of Thrones have jumped the shark. I am still wandering half-way through the Season 4 DVD as I am always in the past, but still can't help but read the episode recaps. I'm one of those who prefer to know what's coming. The last episode has caused a small meltdown on the web and I am inclined to agree with what seems to be the majority opinion. Utterly unnecessary and distasteful.

Now there has been a lot of distasteful things going on throughout the first 4 years of this show, so let's not forget that. However there is a difference between "Oh I can't believe they did that!" and "Why am I watching them do this?".

Moreover, the last episode seriously changed course from the books, which the producers always said they were not bound to stick to. Fair enough, but it was a pretty stupid departure. Sansa Stark is one of few characters that people like. She has been in peril since Season One, to use her this way when it was not in the plot and then make the audience sit through it, takes the violence to a whole new level.

I don't know where this plot is going, never did, but I'm beginning to get the feeling that the best part of this show may be already over.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Raven,

Ramsey now thinks Sansa's a, um, pushover, so that'll make her revenge all the sweeter. I would think that's where they're going. The show has been pretty messed up from the start. I don't see it as having gotten any worse, it's just under a bigger microscope now. There were some awful things from the books that didn't make it in, so I don't think that's their prime motivator, to shock, or they would have used more of that.

Anyway, it looks like just two more seasons after this one, so I'm sure they'll be able to finish it up, even if viewership does go down, although these controversial scenes do have people talking and that tends to bring more viewers, which is to say more are usually gained than are lost by them.

Beyond that, there are no sponsors to offend, so that won't be a factor as it sometimes can be with shows that push the envelope.

I heard it put best when one reviewer referred to being a fan of this show being comparable to "being in an abusive codependent relationship". The show (and the books) keep punching us in the gut and hurting or killing the characters we love and us by way of that. Yet, we keep coming back for more. The scene in question was indeed a rough one, but there are a number of elements currently in play that could certainly give her some much needed revenge.

We have know for a while that the show was going in a different direction character-wise but will end the same.

I watched the episode not at all surprised by the events considering what we have seen Ramsay is capable of, and have only just found out through my brother emailing me an article that there was even an uproar about the episode.

This for me sums it up the best.
Link to Collider How Did GAME OF THRONES Go too Far When We Knew the Destination?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Juelle Lou:

I watched the episode not at all surprised by the events considering what we have seen Ramsay is capable of, and have only just found out through my brother emailing me an article that there was even an uproar about the episode./QUOTE]

Well that is kind of my problem with this, we have seen this all before.

Sansa escapes Joffrey and Little Finger, just to run into Ramsay, who we have already seen way too much of with the whole Theon Greyjoy torture story. Now it could be argued that Theon deserved what he got and that's why there weren't many complaints, but even with that it went on too long by half. There is also a big difference between reading a novel and then seeing it realized in visual form and shoved in your face. So it may be true that much worse was done in the books, yet somehow seeing it performed makes it less intimate and more realistic.

As I said, I am catching up and will not even see Season 5 before it hits DVD. But I will know where it is going and I'm not going to spend the next 3 seasons looking at the same thing with meaner streaks.

People who watch things like Thrones, Walking Dead, Spartacus etc and then are surprised or shocked by the content really amaze me, what were they expecting?

quote:

Originally posted by wolfie:
People who watch things like Thrones, Walking Dead, Spartacus etc and then are surprised or shocked by the content really amaze me, what were they expecting?

Well you're right of course, but they don't start out that way. And it's not just a matter of nudity or graphic violence, because speaking only for myself, that doesn't bother me anymore than it attracts me. The problem comes in when it gets excessive and makes you start to dislike what you are watching more than the reason why you are watching it.

Game of Thrones has a great story, compelling characters and terrific actors, at least for the first three seasons. Yet like all running shows it is getting carried away with trying to keep topping itself. And yes, you can cross a line even when you expect certain things will happen.

I had a somewhat similar discussion on these boards about The Walking Dead, which I have long since stopped watching. It turned too ugly and too grim, too fast. GOT had enough competing stories too stay interesting, but they should start getting some of these main characters together (like Danny and Tyron) and stop wasting time making points that have already been hammered home. Like it's a bad world and no one is safe.

The whole oddity for me is the uproar over the rapes when these are grown people just doing another scene, no more, no less.

Is the notion that, OK, Jamie Lannister has raped his sister, so it's OK that I rape mine? Is it that, oh boy, when I am made the heir to Winterfell, and I am given a young bride, I now feel all right about brutally raping her in front of my tortured manservant who knew her as a child? Yay, Ramsay Snow, and thanks, "Game of Thrones"!!!

These things aren't realistic, they are pure fiction, and no more reality in our world than ink on a printed page, images on a (likely) digital camera. The scripted words and actions are all things that none of the actors were forced to do, and that no viewer is ever forced to watch.

For my part, I'm glad they didn't show Catelyn Stark's "funeral" or the full version of how the Unsullied are really made (among other things), but I wouldn't have been offended if they had. It's a rough stage this play is performed on, and well, winter is coming, after all. They did tell us that the night is dark and full of turnips, er, terror. We had been warned...

Not sure why the internet was in a "frenzy" over that last scene on last Sunday's episode. That's HBO and pushing-the-envelope television for ya. Besides, there was a far more disturbing scene last season between Ser Jaime and Queen Cersei which was far more deplorable IMO.

Everyone who has watched the last few seasons of GoT knows that Ramsay Bolton is a sick, sadistic twit and capable of gruesome acts of violence and carnage and we all know that "stupid, stupid little girl" mentality that Sansa possesses and couple both these characters with the devilish scheming of Lord Baelish led us to this scene. I am sure the writers have "Sansa's revenge" planned (or maybe they don't) and the People of the North (along with Sansa lighting that candle in the tower window) will rise up with her during the Battle of the North and those who are currently furious with the show and want to boycott watching GoT will slither back onto their favourite couches/chair and catch the next episode

Of course this is only my hypothesis as I have not read any of the books and am ever hopeful that the eldest Stark daughter will get some justice. Great character and superbly acted by Miss Turner and also the fact she will be the new Jean Grey (sorry for the shameless X-men poke)

quote:

Originally posted by slackjawedyokel:
Great character and superbly acted by Miss Turner and also the fact she will be the new Jean Grey (sorry for the shameless X-men poke)

She is remarkably beautiful. I hope she is made into Dark Phoenix at some point during her run. She would look amazing, even with the all-white eyes!

It was a pretty disturbing scene, but it's not out if character for this show.


I'm not much of a Sophie Turner fan and not too keen on her playing Jean Grey tbh.

So FINALLY Dany and Tyrion are in the same story. Let the games begins.

What an episode tonight! Easily one of the best they've ever done.

I also like how much the show has now deviated from the books. A lot of this stuff is totally uncharted territory. Anything can happen now!

So I haven't read the books and I believe that Martin is still working on the last two, but since you have read them, let me ask you a question CPF.

Martin has obviously sold the rights to the screenwriters and they are now changing the plot line for various characters as they feel fit. As an example, I believe that Tyrion and Dany have not yet met in the books that have been published.

So I was wondering, as the writer of the source material that has yet to be written, doesn't that hamstring Martin into turning his plot a certain way, even though he himself may have had other ideas? Just suppose that Martin meant to kill Tyrion in the next book, but the TV show decides to keep him alive through the whole story because he is a hugely popular character. Could Martin really kill him anyway and continue a completely different storyline than the last two seasons of the show?

I don't think he can. I think he can change things a little, but it is now the screenwriters who have highjacked the plot development for at least two novels that are still in progress.

I wonder if J. K. Rowling would have allowed giving away Harry Potter like that. I doubt it, those books were completed and published well in advance of the movies. Your thoughts?

Good questions.
The HBO show runners do have his outline for everything, so I think no matter how much they stray from the source material now, there's a point at which all roads rejoin.

As for being "scooped" by the TV series, I'm thinking that Martin must pretty much have books 6 and 7 written by now and that book 6 will be published before Season 6 airs its premiere episode next year. There have been rumors that book 6 will be out before the end of this year even.

That book should put Martin "ahead" of the TV narrative again, and it gives him nearly 2 years from now to get book 7 out and beat the TV show to the finish, longer if HBO can get the producers to go beyond the 7 seasons they said they want to wrap the show up in. A season 8 would not surprise me, and while that may be on the edge of dragging it out a little too long, if they can keep coming up with a few episodes per season as good as last night's was, I think they'll be OK.

This would mean book 6 in late 2015 or early 2016 and the book 7 in late 2016 (or early 2017 or even late 2017 to early 2018 if there is a season 8), and Martin wins the "race". I know that seems unlikely considering how long has passed between the publication of some of these books, but Martin has to know the stakes are raised, and there's no way he wants his finish revealed on the TV series before he can reveal it in his books. For his part, Martin's already announced that he's not writing a script for the TV series like he had been doing each previously season and cutting back his personal appearances so that he can spend even more time on the books. Hopefully, he's working at a full clip as we speak.

One thing about this moment we're in that pleases to no end is the handcuffing of that weird subculture of book readers, who, for whatever reason, like spoiling upcoming TV series events for those who haven't read the books. They've largely run out of material to spoil with as well. Whatever will they do now? Move on to ruining other surprises from other things, I suppose...

Beyond that, as a viewer who has read the books, it is a lot or fun to once again have pretty much no idea as to what might happen from one episode to the next, something I haven't really had since Season 1, as I read books 1-3 between the airing of Season 1 and Season 2. It was hard to put them down, but eventually I did enough to have a few surprises in Season 4, but nothing like what I've enjoyed so far this season.

I'm sure you're right about Martin having a general outline regarding the fate of his characters and how it will all end up. I do think that the show may influence at least some of his writing going forward. I mean, if the screenwriters came up with some great idea that Martin did not have, why wouldn't he use it as his own? Who can say which came first, the chicken or the egg?

Regarding the final season or two of GOT, I can see HBO doing what was done with Walking Dead and Mad Men, just drag it out by splitting it up into two parts. That will allow more time for the books to be finished and it will keep the series going longer. Personally I hate it because the viewers are stuck waiting, but it's all about milking a good thing.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Raven,

Martin and the showrunners have had numerous meetings and discussions about the direction of both the series and the books, including the outcome. The situation is similar to that with The Walking Dead in that the show is following the basic outline of the source material but is also differing in a number of key areas with the full approval of the original writer.

As to whether or not the show will influence Martin, it already has. Given his involvement with both, it is inevitable that some symbiosis would occur. He recently stated in an interview that the show had come up with something to do with a character that he hadn't thought of doing with that character and it has inspired him to change whatever he had originally planned to do. I doubt that his relationship with the show will affect his planned ending but it will likely alter his route to get there.

The other way that the show has influenced his writing is that it distracted him from working on the books. In a somewhat recent interview, Martin talked about how heavily into writing the sixth book he was after the release of the fifth but his involvement with the show had pulled him away from it and that cost him his momentum. He recently got himself fired up again and is trying to get the next book done before the show gets too far ahead of him. Hopefully, that extra drive will inspire him to get the seventh book done in a timely manner as well.

Sunday nights episode was beyond epic in every way!!
Definitely the highlight of the season and possibly the best thus far in the pantheon that is GoT.
IMO it surpasses the Battle of Black Water Bay, The Wall, and the Red Wedding episodes.
So good in fact I re-watched it twice last night
Could have easily been a finale episode and now I am wondering what's in store for the final 2 episodes.
Happy watching!!

Just a guess, but I'd say we will see something big with the Stannis and the Boltons at Winterfell, with Arya at Braavos, with cersei at King's Landing, with Jaime and Bronn in Dorne, and something really big with Dany and Tyrion at the Fighting Pits of Mereen. The whole season been building up those events. I would think the Knight's Watch has already finished most of its heavy lifting this year, after that spectacular battle.

They will also be laying groundwork for season 6 in the final two episodes, so I see a surprise character or two appearing in Episode 10, maybe someone we thought was dead.

What we got in Episode 8 this year, they traditionally try to do in Episode 9, a huge climactic scene that leads to denouement and setting up for the following season in the final episode 10.

This tells me they may have something even better planned for Episode 9 (and maybe even 10, the season finale) as well, but that's pretty hard to imagine. It was amazing to see the producers of Game of Thrones, in the instant classic episode 8, flawlessly bring to their show the sort of horrific zombie battle that has made "Walking Dead" such a big hit, all while totally in service to the GoT story.

Those walker kids were the stuff of nightmares. They reminded me of the child vampires of "Salem's Lot".
Brrrrr.....

[QUOTE]Originally posted by chesspieceface:
Just a guess, but I'd say we will see something big with the Stannis and the Boltons at Winterfell, with Arya at Braavos, with cersei at King's Landing, with Jaime and Bronn in Dorne, and something really big with Dany and Tyrion at the Fighting Pits of Mereen. The whole season been building up those events./QUOTE]

Can't speak for the rest because I don't know anything about it, but what's coming with Cersei at King's Landing has already been widely leaked.

As much as everyone has been waiting for her fall, Headey and the script have kept that character evil without becoming a total monster like Ramsey or Joffrey. One of those love/hate relationships. I don't know that I would enjoy watching her get her just desserts if the producers film it in a truly awful way.