I think we are also at an odd time. Look at these factors:

-the fever (and fervor?) of sketch collecting has slowed down, yet they are still an expected pull

-manufactured patch or medallion cards came out of nowhere, and --I am guessing here--the average collector doesn't see as 'valuable'

-juggernaut properties like Star Wars with their numerous and tiring parallels is getting very old, not to mention a Journey To and two follow-up series' worth of releases

-releases where the auto signers are... sub-par compared to the progeny of the property. Black Panther and Solo are the best examples with their list of signers

All I collect now are sketch cards (maybe one every four months), and Rittenhouse's free promos.

Here's a thought coming from the most unbiased and objective collector out there

Start collecting promo cards!!
The hunt is always fun because exciting and previously unknown promos are still being discovered regularly, they're not too expensive and the variety of themes is so diverse that boredom never exists.

quote:

Originally posted by promoking:
Here's a thought coming from the most unbiased and objective collector out there

Start collecting promo cards!!
The hunt is always fun because exciting and previously unknown promos are still being discovered regularly, they're not too expensive and the variety of themes is so diverse that boredom never exists.

Yes. I used to have a promo collection of a few hundred cards and you can really go to town on building up a collection fairly quickly at a reasonable price.

Though I'm hunting out bargain base sets - or building them up - at the moment.

But autographs will always be my favorite so it's a shame as one person above me said, that the signer lists for sets can be sub-par these days.

quote:

Originally posted by cardaddict:
All I collect now are sketch cards (maybe one every four months), and Rittenhouse's free promos.

Seems since a lot of collectors on this board 'dropped off' collecting either due to lack of funds, boredom with newer sets or completion of their original collection (Sets/Goals).

But those who stayed do tend to be a lot more 'focused' nowadays on their particular card collecting 'niche'. Perhaps the price of new sets and the lack of thought put into some products had a lot to do with it as well?

quote:

Originally posted by weasel-king:
I think we are also at an odd time. Look at these factors:

-the fever (and fervor?) of sketch collecting has slowed down, yet they are still an expected pull

-manufactured patch or medallion cards came out of nowhere, and --I am guessing here--the average collector doesn't see as 'valuable'

-juggernaut properties like Star Wars with their numerous and tiring parallels is getting very old, not to mention a Journey To and two follow-up series' worth of releases

-releases where the auto signers are... sub-par compared to the progeny of the property. Black Panther and Solo are the best examples with their list of signers

Agreed. One of the best sketch based sets was LOTR Masterpieces but that was a very long time ago! Honestly some of the 'sketches' included in sets these days makes me cringe (and I'm not even a sketch collector).

I have no idea where the patch/medallion cards came from either but I can't say it adds much to a set? Are some manufacturers 'adding' them in instead of costume cards?

Don't get me started on the autograph signers lists. I was looking at some older sets the other day like Big Bang and Once Upon A Time.

OUAT didn't follow up the Season One set with any other set, and not all the major players signed so that just feels like there's a huge void in that set. Perhaps they were going to follow it up and the set got shelved?

But then there's the likes of Big Bang where the have REPEAT major signers for 2 and 3 sets. Firstly this tripples the cost of acquiring an autograph from the same person for each set.

But further more it DEVALUES the older autographs if peolpe only care about getting A Kayley Cuoco autograph card (from an of the sets) and not THE Kayley Cuoco card from the first set, the later autographs don't serve a huge purpose.

That's where Inkworks got it right in rarely having repeat signers especially in the earlier sets eg Alyson Hannigan. And of course not getting Sarah Michelle Gellar until year after the shows run ended.

Plus a pet peeve for me was the fact that her autograph design doesn't 'fit' with the original run and stands out like a sore thumb but that's for another thread.

quote:

Originally posted by TC00:
But then there's the likes of Big Bang where the have REPEAT major signers for 2 and 3 sets. Firstly this tripples the cost of acquiring an autograph from the same person for each set.

But further more it DEVALUES the older autographs if peolpe only care about getting A Kayley Cuoco autograph card (from an of the sets) and not THE Kayley Cuoco card from the first set, the later autographs don't serve a huge purpose.

The Big Bang is not a good example to use. First of all, Kaley Cuoco signed in the first two releases only. Her autograph card and signed costume card have only increased because there are no new ones.

Secondly BBT is one of the shows that remains with good demand, so the increasing supply on other main cast members has not resulted in any great drop in their autograph prices. In fact, in the last BBT release, not only was Cuoco missing, but so was any signatures from Parsons and Galecki. Now that hurts a set way more, the absence of in-demand higher priced autographs, rather than having too many of them.

As for collecting triple autographs, that is a collector's decision and you don't have to do it to feel complete. My goal on running titles that I like is to try and get at least one of every signer. I see no need to have the exact same signature 5 times over, especially if they are pricey ones. The beauty of a genuine autograph is that it should be close to the same on everything.

If there are super limited autographs that are way out of range for the particular signer, than I may not bother at all. My pet peeve, minor actors/characters with star prices.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Raven,

quote:

Originally posted by weasel-king:
I think we are also at an odd time. Look at these factors:

-the fever (and fervor?) of sketch collecting has slowed down, yet they are still an expected pull

-manufactured patch or medallion cards came out of nowhere, and --I am guessing here--the average collector doesn't see as 'valuable'

-juggernaut properties like Star Wars with their numerous and tiring parallels is getting very old, not to mention a Journey To and two follow-up series' worth of releases

-releases where the auto signers are... sub-par compared to the progeny of the property. Black Panther and Solo are the best examples with their list of signers

I think for the most part manufacturers are trying to figure out out to stay in business.

I was surprised when the Gotham sets were canceled. The show is really well done, and it is based on a hero rooted in comics that you would think should have a decent collector fan base, and the sets were well done with lots of great autographs. Clearly at the end of the day there just wasn't enough support from collectors/fans to keep producing sets despite the fact that it is still a well reviewed active TV show that gets over 2 million people watching a week.

Sketches are one of the few hits besides autographs that can produce value in a set.

Medallions and Patches -- I feel like are just an attempt to find something else to be a valuable hit in a box.

Star Wars and Walking Dead keep getting produced over and over simply because they keep selling. Maybe not always at hobby shops, but there are around 1800 Targets and over 3000 Walmarts, so if you can sell just 1 Walking Dead blaster at all 5000 of those locations that's over 300 cases of product . . . if you can get that up to 5 blasters per location that's 1500 cases of product. This, really, is why it's important to be able to reach a mass audience -- and that is just looking at Target and Walmart.

The weak signer list is a huge problem -- look at Breaking Bad -- one of the biggest TV shows ever, released while the show was very hot -- the autograph list wasn't good and the set was massively dumped. I keep hearing excuses why manufacturers do this, and while I'm sure it's not their preference if they can't get good assets to produce a set they shouldn't produce the set. If their contracts are so bad that they are forced to pay for and produce a set even if they can't get assets, or if the contract prohibits them from getting key assets they should just pass on the contract. I mean honestly -- the first thing a manufacture should do once they have a license is acquire key assets, and if they can't get the cooperation they need to get those assets they should walk away.

Case in point -- Breaking Bad -- I think you might have an easier time getting autographs from some of the people on Breaking Bad now that the show isn't so hot, and I suspect that if really good Breaking Bad set was released today it would to better than the set that was previously released even though the show was more popular then.

I don't think card manufacturers are allowed to pursue contracts with the individual actors until after they have acquired the license. Once they have paid for the license and discover that they can't sign some main actors, they are already on the hook for the license fee.

It might hurt less for them to abort the whole project, but businesses do tend to forge ahead when plans fall through, figuring they will lose money regardless and it could all work out anyway. I remember that Inkworks did cancel several titles in its waning days and it didn't help them.

As far as Breaking Bad goes, the lack of star autographs killed it, but I never thought it was a really a great title for cards to begin with. The show fans were not easily transferrable to card collectors. Not like a Gotham, which as you said, seemed to be doing everything right and still didn't sell well.

Sons of Anarchy was also an outside the box title like Breaking Bad, but they had very good sets with autographs from all major cast and a number of great guest stars. Yet the same thing happened in the long run. SoA cards are readily available now and there has been a big decline in autograph card value. Good for people looking to pick them up now, but bad for collectors who bought at peak.

You could try to dissect patterns going set by set, but its kind of like the stock market. One day its way up and the expert says this is the reason. The next day its way down and the expert sights the exact same reason. How could that be? The same reason? We may think we know why a sub-par product doesn't sell, but we can't figure out why good ones don't. At least I can't.

quote:

Originally posted by Raven:

quote:

Originally posted by TC00:
But then there's the likes of Big Bang where the have REPEAT major signers for 2 and 3 sets. Firstly this tripples the cost of acquiring an autograph from the same person for each set.

But further more it DEVALUES the older autographs if peolpe only care about getting A Kayley Cuoco autograph card (from an of the sets) and not THE Kayley Cuoco card from the first set, the later autographs don't serve a huge purpose.

The Big Bang is not a good example to use. First of all, Kaley Cuoco signed in the first two releases only. Her autograph card and signed costume card have only increased because there are no new ones.

Ha my bad.

Yeah I've not kept up with TBB cards since the second set was out...and I am one of those 'one day I will have all the issued autographs from this [insert name here] set...and yeah over priced cheap signers are a real annoyance.

quote:

Originally posted by webjon:
learly at the end of the day there just wasn't enough support from collectors/fans to keep producing sets despite the fact that it is still a well reviewed active TV show that gets over 2 million people watching a week.

Yeah I've always been baffled by the fact that people call themselves huge fans of a show, yet when given the opportunity to own literal memorabilia from the show eg costumes and autographs, they turn it down.

Sure for some its simply no extra cash to splash. But I know some people who like the idea but seriously care what other people think of their hobbies (Yeah some people still freak out over getting 'Nerd/Geek' tags in adulthood ). Or 'age restrict' the hobby ie 'for kids'

Maybe this is a British thing though? Growing up telling people I collected trading cards, everyone thoughts or said 'Oh Pokemon' and when I explained Non-Sports it kind of went over their heads...and these were the smart people.

quote:

Originally posted by webjon:
If their contracts are so bad that they are forced to pay for and produce a set even if they can't get assets, or if the contract prohibits them from getting key assets they should just pass on the contract. I mean honestly -- the first thing a manufacture should do once they have a license is acquire key assets, and if they can't get the cooperation they need to get those assets they should walk away.

You do get a lot of 'precious' actors who don't like people 'selling' their autograph. This usually means they get more fan hype at premiers for the lucky ones who snag autos. But it's 'nice' how much they think of their own signature scribble which can evenutally plummet in value anyways depending on an infinite variety of scenarios.

Back to the cards...I think we tend to forget there's product managers and people with jobs to keep and kids to feed who if pressured by their company to close a deal on a mediocre set will do that 'just because' they have no other option. If you can't close on a weak deal, what chance have you got of gaining confidence with a bigger hit? But it is a let down for fans. Though I suppose in some cases it's better than no set at all?

quote:

Originally posted by Raven:
I remember that Inkworks did cancel several titles in its waning days and it didn't help them.

You raised a lot of good points in your full post.

Were they any big sets Inkworks cancelled (If you recall that far back)?

Though it didn't help them, they economic collapse was more of a unique situation they were facing rather than regular scenario of a manufacturer folding due to poor sales. I think had it not been bad luck in the economy they could have stayed afloat.

Tough competition at the time did see other manufacturers like ArtBox secure licences for major sets (ie Harry Potter) that Inkworks would have usual 'won' in the bid.

But if studios knew they were 'at risk' it wouldn't of been in their favour to give them the licence. Which is a shame as such a set could have potentially seen them through the recession.

quote:

Originally posted by Raven:
I don't think card manufacturers are allowed to pursue contracts with the individual actors until after they have acquired the license. Once they have paid for the license and discover that they can't sign some main actors, they are already on the hook for the license fee.

I am not sure how they could be prevented from approaching individual actors before a contract is in place -- I mean if there isn't a contract then there isn't a contract.

They could approach an actor and say "We want to contract you to sign 500 trading cards -- we are attempting to get the license for a series you were in -- if we get the license the cards will be based on that show, if we don't get the license we'll be producing a set of celebrity autographs (i.e. Pop Century) and your card will be in that."

And if a company won't negotiate a trading card license for a set because they do that -- quite simply they shouldn't make the licensed set and should just make their celebrity autograph set.

quote:

Originally posted by TC00:

quote:

Originally posted by webjon:
learly at the end of the day there just wasn't enough support from collectors/fans to keep producing sets despite the fact that it is still a well reviewed active TV show that gets over 2 million people watching a week.

Yeah I've always been baffled by the fact that people call themselves huge fans of a show, yet when given the opportunity to own literal memorabilia from the show eg costumes and autographs, they turn it down.

And this, I think, is where the manufacturers need to focus -- why are fans of a product not interested in a card set? Price point, set content, something else? Clearly fans have no problem buying Funko Pops in droves, so at least in the US I don't think there is a collecting stigma. . . Funko Pops are inexpensive, and different than anything you can get anywhere else. . . card are not cheap, and the base sets typically are just repeating content found elsewhere.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: webjon,

And this, I think is there the manufacturers need to focus -- why are fans of a product not interested in a card set? Price point, set content, something else? Clearly fans have no problem buying Funko Pops in droves, so at least in the US I don't think there is a collecting stigma. . . Funko Pops are inexpensive, and different than anything you can get anywhere else. . . card are not cheap, and the base sets typically are just repeating content found elsewhere.

Firstly I think - certainly for the UK market - the demographic is aimed at youth culture and fads or guaranteed sellers like sports CCGs, instead of the serious collector with 'real' money to put down.

Secondly I think display plays a big part. Being able to put collectables visually on display for others to see and share. Funko Pops in or (gasp) out of box are easy to display and share. Cards being smaller and more susceptible to damage are often store out of sight in binders. Or even when screw down holders for display, tucked away from damaging sources like direct sunlight or heat sources. Which Funko Pops wouldn't be as (or as quickly) damaged by.

I think the fad aspect is a major part of it. A bit like coffee table books people can dip in and out but don't really have to read or learn or 'invest' in knowledge about the subject, industry or products featured. The same with the likes of Funko Pops, even big franchises like Pokemon, there's always a new generation discovering them. But in value terms only the original set has any 'real' monetary value.

People want something they can jump on the band wagon with, swap, share and then shelve or self for equal or greater return. Few people will still have huge Funko Pop collections in 10 years time like original Furbys, Tamagotchis, Beanie Babies (Which were going to put kids through college and their parents through retirement) and more fads besides. Who'd of thought Barbie sales would fall but they have for the first time 50 years.

I think the industry needs to experiment with new business models or promotions and marketing to engage younger or just newer collectors. Perhaps cases and boxes might become a thing of the past if prices continue to increase, since you can just purchase cards you really want online for fraction of the price. It's happened with American Horror Story: Asylum. Major star like Zachary Quinto and you can pick up his autograph for about £35 GBP! In the not too distant past such Hollywood movie starts would command triple figures for such an autograph in any set.

As you said about base sets re-hashing content found online (usually in more 'interactive' content eg videos, gifs etc), I don't think even long time collectors still appreciate the design process that goes into a base set. Further more for those who don't, the cards don't 'add' a lot of 'value' to their sets. Sorry for the small essay.

quote:

Originally posted by TC00:
As you said about base sets re-hashing content found online (usually in more 'interactive' content eg videos, gifs etc), I don't think even long time collectors still appreciate the design process that goes into a base set. Further more for those who don't, the cards don't 'add' a lot of 'value' to their sets. Sorry for the small essay.

I was thinking about your other thread about best chase cards. . . and I personally really like lenticular cards. . . What there was just a very small set of very nice lenticular cards (like the old skymotion cards) that showed just the most iconic moments from a show/movie. . . For me those are something that actually would be interesting to look at.

You could do a retail set that was just lenticular cards -- a 'blind box' of a lenticular card for like whatever they charge for Pops. Then for a hobby set you could do the lenticular cards, plus autographs/relics/sketches for like $40 or $50 a box. I'm not sure if the economics work at $40 a box, but production costs would likely be lower since you are only having to design like 5% of what you are currently designing, and shipping/packaging costs would be like 80% less.

Maybe lenticular isn't cool enough, but perhaps the approach with a different unique technology could bring more casual collectors in to the hobby.

quote:

Originally posted by webjon:

I was surprised when the Gotham sets were canceled. Clearly at the end of the day there just wasn't enough support from collectors/fans to keep producing sets despite the fact that it is still a well reviewed active TV show that gets over 2 million people watching a week.

How many of those 2 million people even know that the cards exist?

The Gotham card set was probably hurt by the fact that the show has been on the verge of cancellation over the past few years, and the fact that the upcoming season is the LAST.

quote:

Originally posted by David R:
The Gotham card set was probably hurt by the fact that the show has been on the verge of cancellation over the past few years, and the fact that the upcoming season is the LAST.

Perhaps, but curiously even now after the products have been dumped there are still many autographs that sell quite well -- here are some sales just from the last 2 weeks:

Autos:

Erin Richards: $65
Natalie Alyn Lind: $65
Sean Pertwee $35
Jessica Lucas $51
Natalie Alyn Lind $72
James Frain $61
Erin Richards: $65
Robin Lord Taylor $50
Cameron Monaghan $35
Jessica Lucas $75
Camren Bicondova $157

Also there are a bunch of other cards that still sell well from these sets: Some relics, Star Power Cards, Plates, etc.

So it seems to me that fans of this product are supporting it -- perhaps in this particular case Wolfie is right -- maybe this is an advertising issue. . .