Just been the victim of the following scenario and hope by sharing my bad luck others do not get caught the same way.

Sold £23 of cards to a buyer (lets call them Paul), who pays really quickly, and I ship the cards with proof of posting only.

The next day, he acknowledes the receipt of the cards by leaving positive feedback ie great cards, many thanks etc.

I think nothing more off it, and destroy the proof of posting.....wish I had not!

Roll forward 60 days and I get a claim against me for the payment being taken without the buyers authority (DESPITE THEM HAVING THE CARDS) and the £23 is removed from my account while the claim is investigated.

As I do not have proof of posting (why would I keep that in the circumstances), the case is awarded against me and the icing on the cake is the further £14 fee that is deducted for the credit card settlement!!

It would now appear you will have to save all documents for a long time to avoid being ripped off by dishonest buyers.

Rant over, but I hope no one else gets ripped the same way

Dave

That pretty harsh, how can you take a payment without the buyer's consent? Doesn't make any sense.

I hope I don't end up in a similar situation, I have a buyer in the US who bought a card from me, not overly expensive but enough to warrant registered post. I have the tracking number which I duly updated on the ebay item. I can track all the way to the New York customs house where is it stuck.. this is not unusual, but from about the 2nd week, I have been getting 'one line' fairly rude emails demanding the card and why isn't it here? The other day he raised a case against me on ebay, implying I am lying. What can I do, it's not even been long enough to claim from my local post office. US customs are difficult, I assume when the case closes, ebay will refund the buyer and he will end up with the card and the money and I will be out-of-pocket.

Kind of sours the whole ebay thing really.. the worst part is the implication I am ripping him off.. what more can I do.. it's in the post, here is the tracking number.. just be patient..

This happened to me twice this month, I shipped my item to the oversea address niether of them wanted to pay the extra $11 to have it tracked and the boxes went missing. One of the guys was nice about it at first and I refuned his purchase price for the item and that seemed to be that, then a week later he comes back and demands that I pay for his shipping cost as well. I said that I would not no that because how was I going to get his money back for the USPS. He filed a claim and ebay took the money out of my account and gave it to him.

When the next box disappeared I tried to take care of it all at once this time and refund all their money including overseas postage. The guy still filed claims against me with both Paypal and eBay then left very bad comments on the feedback page about me.

This has almost turned me off of selling on the bay altogether. Seems that the buyers get all the perks but when they don't pay me I don't get to file a claim get money from them and keep my items...ok rant done.

Hm, interesting story. Dave, could you email me as I would like to compare notes.

I was also recently the victim of a similar chargeback attempt through Paypal. I sold £43 of cards to a buyer on eBay who also left nice positive feedback. 60 days later, Paypal notified me that they had received a credit card chargeback for a claimed unauthorised payment. The money was removed from my account pending my response. As it happens, I sent the cards by Recorded/Signed For Delivery. I also still had the two receipts provided to me at the time by the Post Office, reference number receipt and payment receipt. I could also point Paypal to the online proof of delivery through the Royal Mail site. As a result, I was able to meet all of the requirements of Paypal Seller Protection and have had my money refunded. It did take Paypal two weeks to come up with the refund, but I did get it last Saturday. As an extra detail, I was able to point Paypal to the positive feedback left by the buyer.

One observation, the buyer had changed his Paypal mailing address since he bought the cards but Paypal were only concerned with the address on the original transaction so that was alright.

Same thing happened to me 2 months ago, buyer claimed they had not received my package (I forgot to add tracking #). The purchased happened 30 days prior and no emails from buyer. Paypal processed their claim and deducted the amount from my account. So happens I still had the tracking # and was able to prove it was received. I wonder if there are some people out there who are looking for lack of tracking # and make claims though they have received the purchase?

Seems strange that the fact that they had left positive feedback counts for Nothing and how they call it an "Unauthorised payment" which is a strange term.

It is worrying that they take the fees from the Seller and the seller has all the risk. Paypal has gone too far in favour of the buyer, the one thing that seems certain is to get everything sent recorded and keep everything for the 60 days. All it will do is make buying much more expensive

quote:

Originally posted by hammer:
Seems strange that the fact that they had left positive feedback counts for Nothing and how they call it an "Unauthorised payment" which is a strange term.

That is just the term given to the transaction by the Credit Card company. They tell Paypal that their customer has notified them of an unauthorised payment made with their credit card. They then take the money off Paypal who in turn take the money from the Seller's account.

quote:

Originally posted by hammer:It is worrying that they take the fees from the Seller and the seller has all the risk. Paypal has gone too far in favour of the buyer. But the one thing that seems certain is to get everything sent recorded and keep everything for the 60 days. All it will do is make buying much more expensive

Remember, Paypal is owned by eBay. They have gone out of their way to ensure 'Buyer confidence' over the past few years, including the way Paypal operates.

Also, you need to keep the information/documents for longer than 60 days. That figure probably relates to the amount of time eBay retain the listing details so you can go back and look at it easily. After that, they now remove it from their system. I found that out during my recent dealings with Paypal. Fortunately, I'm not just a collector I'm also a hoarder so I still have all the original Listing, Sales and Invoice emails on my PC. It's quite rare that I ever delete things like that. Now even more so than before.

quote:

Originally posted by hammer:
Seems strange that the fact that they had left positive feedback counts for Nothing and how they call it an "Unauthorised payment" which is a strange term.

It is worrying that they take the fees from the Seller and the seller has all the risk. Paypal has gone too far in favour of the buyer, the one thing that seems certain is to get everything sent recorded and keep everything for the 60 days. All it will do is make buying much more expensive

I hate Feebay these days.its just too big for its boots??shame.it started out as a good idea?just goes to show that collectors are attending more fairs because Feebay is a minefield!

quote:

Originally posted by drofdarb:
That pretty harsh, how can you take a payment without the buyer's consent? Doesn't make any sense.

I hope I don't end up in a similar situation, I have a buyer in the US who bought a card from me, not overly expensive but enough to warrant registered post. I have the tracking number which I duly updated on the ebay item. I can track all the way to the New York customs house where is it stuck.. this is not unusual, but from about the 2nd week, I have been getting 'one line' fairly rude emails demanding the card and why isn't it here? The other day he raised a case against me on ebay, implying I am lying. What can I do, it's not even been long enough to claim from my local post office. US customs are difficult, I assume when the case closes, ebay will refund the buyer and he will end up with the card and the money and I will be out-of-pocket.

Kind of sours the whole ebay thing really.. the worst part is the implication I am ripping him off.. what more can I do.. it's in the post, here is the tracking number.. just be patient..

Call eBay by phone and explain the situation including giving them the tracking number so that they can see where the package has got to. I hate to admit it but they can actually be quite helpful at times...even if you are a seller. I assume you have provided all the tracking information in your response to the case he has raised through eBay. Again, eBay will actually check the tracking info and they are aware of the holds ups that happening in the States. I had a tracked item sit in New York for about a fortnight before finally moving on.

We can all rant all we wont. Truth is eBay is the only place to sell things. One has to write these type of things off as operating losses. Like having a store and someone stealing items off the shelve. Even with all of the fees and issues its still ten times more effective to sell on ebay than it would be to have a brick and mortar store.

eBay = advertising & a store front all in one spot. If you want to be in the game you have to pay the piper.

Same thing happened to me . At least I only lost £3 and I blackballed the buyer from bidding on my auctions in the future.I keep everything for six months now .

This is why I left ebay in 2008. Sounds like it hasn't got better in the 4 years since I left.

I don't understand ( nothing new there ). If the buyer left positive feedback how can he say he never got the cards?

Surely ebay can see that for what it is. Even i can see it.

I don't usually like to talk about Ebay here, since I come to this site for "fun" as opposed to "business" as much as I can, but I do have a ton of experience with Eby (nearly 15 years), so I should chime in.

First off, all sellers should save all tracking and proof of mailing for at least 6 months for the reasons the original post-er has outlined. I save all of mine for a full year.

Next, understand that any item sent without tracking to any country (including your own) is subject to "chargebacks", i.e., Paypal taking the money from your account and giving it back to the buyer, with no questions asked, as long as the buyer says the item wasn't received.

This means that unless you, as the seller, are willing to accept 100% of the risk of an item being lost (or even claimed to have been lost when it was actually received) in the mail, you MUST use an online-trackable method of delivery confirmation on all packages you send.

While that service is very inexpensive for items sent within your own country, the cost to mail items internationally is quite expensive. In the United States, the cheapest method of the online tracking is REGISTERED MAIL which adds $12 on to the postage total. As a result, a card I used to be able to send to Australia, England, etc., for only $3 now costs $15 at a minimum. This undoubtedly has had a chilling effect on international bids, as it's perfectly understandable that a person doesn't want to buy a $20 card and then have the totalt essentially doubled when the postage cost is added on. There are many sellers who simply don't ship outside of the United States for this reason.

And even when the buyer understands the need for the high postage charge and is willing to pay it, there are still some sellers who, for tax purposes, don't want to be in the habit of accepting a $40 Paypal payment (in the example I used above) when they end up actually keeping under half of that amount.

And now, a new US Post Office policy will almost assuredly have further negative impact on many sellers willingness to send items outside of the United States. As a result of customs forms being filled out so haphazardly by many senders, the postal clerk now must manually enter the address the item is being sent to into their computer.
This may not seem like a big deal at first glance, but it can actually take a few minutes per package, so imagine how much time per week this will require from seller who sends packages out of the United States on a regular basis. Unlike regular packages that can be sent using the automated machine at the post office, or else be picked up from your home by the letter carrier, packages with customs forms have to be mailed at the post office in a process whose time has just been significantly increased.

I hate to say it, but look for at least some sellers who used to gladly ship items out of the U.S. to soon discontinue doing so, especially lower priced items. It is just no longer cost or time effective to offer international service, a real shame.

While I appreciate the risks involved in sending items untracked, it would have been one thing to claim to have not received them, but to actually leave positive feedback praising the cards & service then claim your credit card has an unauthorised payment really sticks in the throat.

Kevin F - got your email & yes it is. I wonder if I can use that to get Paypal to review the case!

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Taylor:
While I appreciate the risks involved in sending items untracked, it would have been one thing to claim to have not received them, but to actually leave positive feedback praising the cards & service then claim your credit card has an unauthorised payment really sticks in the throat.

Kevin F - got your email & yes it is. I wonder if I can use that to get Paypal to review the case!

Does that mean it's the same person?

quote:

Originally posted by hammer:
It is worrying that they take the fees from the Seller and the seller has all the risk. Paypal has gone too far in favour of the buyer, the one thing that seems certain is to get everything sent recorded and keep everything for the 60 days. All it will do is make buying much more expensive

A little perspective from a business owner...

PayPal allows you to be a "business" and take credit cards from anyone worldwide. This service comes at a price.

Now, I take cards directly both mail order and at shows. The rules are EXACTLY the same from my provider. If someone files a claim, they instantly debit my account for the amount while the issue is reviewed. Now, I think my provider is a bit more pro-business than eBay, but not much more.

Fact of the matter is eBay has turned anyone into a business and the hassles of business come with it.

And no Hammer, this was not being hard on you, just some perspective for everyone to take in.

Ed

quote:

This undoubtedly has had a chilling effect on international bids, as it's perfectly understandable that a person doesn't want to buy a $20 card and then have the total essentially doubled when the postage cost is added on. There are many sellers who simply don't ship outside of the United States for this reason.

I hate to say it, but look for at least some sellers who used to gladly ship items out of the U.S. to soon discontinue doing so, especially lower priced items. It is just no longer cost or time effective to offer international service, a real shame.

I have just been let off the hook by a US buyer. I bid on two smallish boxes of cards for a total of about $11.50. He said that he didn't send outside of the US but was willing to make an exception for me. He cam back later after visiting the P.O. with a mailing cost of $32!!
I thgink he was as shocked as I was and agreed to release me from the deal which I gratefully accepted.But as Chesspieceface has quoted (above) that will pretty much sound the death knell for overseas buyers who have neither local trade shows or shops to get cards from. How sad is that, card collecting is now an American hobby. Anyone wanna buy half a container load of cards??

quote:

Originally posted by Scifi Cards:
And no Hammer, this was not being hard on you, just some perspective for everyone to take in.

Ed

As I am awaiting cards from you and hoping for a P18, 19 and 20 I am saying NOTHING

This message has been edited. Last edited by: hammer,

quote:

Originally posted by goldenavenger:

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Taylor:
While I appreciate the risks involved in sending items untracked, it would have been one thing to claim to have not received them, but to actually leave positive feedback praising the cards & service then claim your credit card has an unauthorised payment really sticks in the throat.

Kevin F - got your email & yes it is. I wonder if I can use that to get Paypal to review the case!

Does that mean it's the same person?

Yes. If anyone wants to know the details so they can block the buyer in question, who appears to still be operating on eBay, please email me. My address is in my profile.