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Are Rittenhouse destroying the hobby?
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webjon - if you are trying to get rid of base sets - I may be interested - please let me know
 
Posts: 198 | Location: United States | Registered: December 26, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by WandringRebel:
quote:
Originally posted by sherlock2:
and what people who buy trading card sets for the shows they watch are not collectors!!!!! r u kidding of course they are - they are COLLECTING the cards of a TV show that provides them with enjoyment - enjoyment is an INHERENT part of the hobby is it not - I buy things I like - I do not buy okra because I hate it, I do not buy DEXTER cards because the show is VILE I buy cards that I like & that my customers like


People who collect cards from Warehouse 13 (for example) and only Warehouse 13 are not, in my opinion trading card collectors. Especially if they only care about the base set and not all the chase/autograph/costume cards. Those people are collectors/fans of Warehouse 13 merchandise.


I get what you're saying and agree with you. The same thing happened when Inkworks' Twilight set took off. Many true collectors avoided it because there were only costume cards, but prices went through the roof on Twilight fans. How many of those stuck around to become actual card collectors? Not that many I would guess.

But Twilight was a traditional box product and would have been even worse in the premium format. Premium packs are a good fit for the right titles only. Stuff that has limited appeal to a small niche audience. If a title is quite popular and the manufacturer goes the premium pack format it will be under produced for the demand. The manufacturer will lose money because he could have sold a lot more. The dealers will lose money because they could have sold a lot more. The collectors will get mad because the demand and short supply will drive prices up and make what they want less affordable.

Could some of those RA premium pack products been better as a full release? Depends on who's judgement you are going by. I know that I never watched Warehouse 13, or Spartacus, or Eureka, or Stargate Universe. Yet a bought a few premium packs from each just because of the autograph cards and packs were $40 to $45. I would not have bought the same number of boxes because the money would have been too high for a non-fan. So in my case, the format allowed me to buy something I wouldn't have, that's a good thing for the hobby, right?

That's what the proper use of the format should do. If premium packs are turning too many collectors off, it may be because the manufacturer under-estimated the demand of a title(s) and that would leave a sour taste to people who felt shut out.

It all boils down to knowing what titles will benefit as limited premium packs and what titles should be in boxes. Some times manufacturers won't get it right, but that doesn't mean the format is bad, just that the decision was perhaps wrong.
 
Posts: 10515 | Location: New York | Registered: November 20, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Remember when you used to trade your base card doubles to get other base cards you were missing? This all died out when people bought boxes or cases and base sets could be made so easily. With the Premium Format base cards are less common and you have to go back to trading for the ones you're missing. I don't see this as a bad thing at all really.

I can understand people not wanting to get stuck with dozens of base sets that you can't get rid of. I've still got a heap boxed up in my place and some that I've yet to sort out because I find it a chore. For this reason I've stopped buying cases and now only buy a few boxes of each product. With the Premium Format I can buy a few packs to start a set and then buy/trade for the rest.

I think RA have created these Premium Format products for a very good reason. They did a full release for Warehouse 13 and it clearly didn't sell overly well, but instead of dropping the license, they release it in a smaller format. I can imagine RA continue to release full sets for Trek and Bond because they are very good sellers for them, they wouldn't continue to produce them if they were not.
 
Posts: 1228 | Location: Australia | Registered: November 05, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Sidewinder:
Remember when you used to trade your base card doubles to get other base cards you were missing? This all died out when people bought boxes or cases and base sets could be made so easily. With the Premium Format base cards are less common and you have to go back to trading for the ones you're missing. I don't see this as a bad thing at all really.


It took me a year to get 1 base card when I was willing to pay over half of what a full base set would of cost for the one card and you can't trade for a card that's just not available.

I don't mind premium pack but the simple truth is that it kills the chance for those who like to collect the base sets of every set without having to spend a fortune on them.
 
Posts: 302 | Location: redcar,UK | Registered: January 31, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Having now read the rest of this thread (it was very late when I originally posted) I still don't think premium packs are helpful for the 'average' collector WHO wants a full base set and perhaps 2-3 major hits in a sealed box as oppose to what a premium pack offers. As a collector who sees base set as the 'core' of a set I am disappointed with premium packs as they dont offer what I initially want as a set. I guess it is all about preference - its like the never ending debate on what consititues a 'master' set. It depends on your definition and if you're a 'master set' collector to begin with. Im of the school of thought that if nothing else - if you can get your hands on a complete base set then you've got a great beginning on a set, the core of it and can build up on that (if you wish to) at a rate thats suitable and affordable for you.

What if you open a premium pack and dont get your money back even on 3 hits? and they're 'no good' to you/what you want for you set? For a collector such as myself it sounds as if its a lot of money lost. Although I agree with the annoyance of 'filler' with spares from base sets in a foil/non premium box, it does feel as a 'good value' safety net in term of starting a set from scratch. If you buy boxes/premium packs for investment then that's a completely different story. You can break open a whole $50 Box and not make your money back on the contents. Though I doubt manufacturers can agree on a full $50 return on premium packs either?? Confused

Very interesting debate - Great to hear everyones views Thumb Up. Being in the UK I have never seen/purchased a preimum pack yet Twak
 
Posts: 937 | Location: UK | Registered: December 21, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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In my opinion it isnt Rittenhouse thats destroying the hobby. They are one of the only ones left who has kept it alive. Its every other fly by night TOM, DICK and HARRY here today gone tommorow junk producing maker that is ruining the hobby with garbage that shouldnt even be made. I scratch my head at half of the junk being put out/ And even more confusing is how many people actually try to buy it. Topps already did Vampirella and Wacky Packages perfectly. Sportstime did Marilyn Monroe perfectly. FTCC and Duocards did same with 3 stooges, I could go on and on. No one can make them any better. But someone is always coming along and trying to reinvent something that has already been done right. Inkworks and Comic Images all made great product. Its a real loss they are no longer here. The hobby Needs main stream producers to survive. Like Topps and Rittenhouse. Rittenhouse by the way is Steves creation and he was at Skybox before that. And we all know how good they were. So i guess you can say not only isnt Rittenhouse ruining the hobby, they are probably single handedly responsible for it not having gone under.
 
Posts: 94 | Location: Florida | Registered: January 17, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by TC00:
Having now read the rest of this thread (it was very late when I originally posted) I still don't think premium packs are helpful for the 'average' collector WHO wants a full base set and perhaps 2-3 major hits in a sealed box as oppose to what a premium pack offers. As a collector who sees base set as the 'core' of a set I am disappointed with premium packs as they dont offer what I initially want as a set. I guess it is all about preference - its like the never ending debate on what consititues a 'master' set. It depends on your definition and if you're a 'master set' collector to begin with. Im of the school of thought that if nothing else - if you can get your hands on a complete base set then you've got a great beginning on a set, the core of it and can build up on that (if you wish to) at a rate thats suitable and affordable for you.

What if you open a premium pack and dont get your money back even on 3 hits? and they're 'no good' to you/what you want for you set? For a collector such as myself it sounds as if its a lot of money lost. Although I agree with the annoyance of 'filler' with spares from base sets in a foil/non premium box, it does feel as a 'good value' safety net in term of starting a set from scratch. If you buy boxes/premium packs for investment then that's a completely different story. You can break open a whole $50 Box and not make your money back on the contents. Though I doubt manufacturers can agree on a full $50 return on premium packs either?? Confused

Very interesting debate - Great to hear everyones views Thumb Up. Being in the UK I have never seen/purchased a preimum pack yet Twak


I bought a couple of packs for LOST archives and a few for Warehouse 13, the most I spent on each pack was $40. In the Warehouse 13 packs there were 2 autos and a costume in each, I know they ended up being worth more than $40 altogether. As for LOST the autos I pulled were good and were worth more than the pack cost.

As for boxes, most are around $60 now and I know I've had a couple of dud boxes where the auto and costume weren't worth more than $10 each. Of course you do end up with a base set, but you can't finish any of the chase sets.

I think the value for money is pretty even in the long run, you can get a great box, or a dud, just as you can get a dud or a winner with a premium pack.

I think the problem is that the majority of collectors are in it for the high end cards, not the base sets or chase sets. Companies started including autos, sketches, costumes and with that the price rose. Collectors sought out these new cards and were willing to pay the higher price. People still like to collect the base cards, but all the attention is placed on the big hits now. In most cases many collectors won't buy a product unless the auto list is good, or whether sketches are included etc.
 
Posts: 1228 | Location: Australia | Registered: November 05, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by sittin9duck:
quote:
Originally posted by Sidewinder:
Remember when you used to trade your base card doubles to get other base cards you were missing? This all died out when people bought boxes or cases and base sets could be made so easily. With the Premium Format base cards are less common and you have to go back to trading for the ones you're missing. I don't see this as a bad thing at all really.


It took me a year to get 1 base card when I was willing to pay over half of what a full base set would of cost for the one card and you can't trade for a card that's just not available.

I don't mind premium pack but the simple truth is that it kills the chance for those who like to collect the base sets of every set without having to spend a fortune on them.


I think Rittenhouse has done a great job trying to appease all the different types of collectors. They were bold enough to try out this new format with the premium packs. Remember that it is still very new. It is obviously a format that they have geared towards the hard core collectors. And most of them are much rarer than if they had been in boxes, and collectors love rarity.

I do have a solution to the premium pack problem though. They could continue to make them for the "serious" collectors and ALSO make "base sets only" available for the average collectors who just want a set. They could even make them a different type of parallel version.

Just an idea
 
Posts: 90 | Location: USA | Registered: July 22, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by peterc:

In my opinion it isnt Rittenhouse thats destroying the hobby. Its every other fly by night TOM, DICK and HARRY here today gone tommorow junk producing maker that is ruining the hobby with garbage that shouldnt even be made. Topps already did Vampirella and Wacky Packages perfectly. Sportstime did Marilyn Monroe perfectly. No one can make them any better. But someone is always coming along and trying to reinvent something that has already been done right.

.


Your post appears to be against the stuff that Breygent are putting out. I collected the old Vampirella and Monroe sets and i collected the Breygent versions. I don't consider one better than the other i see them as a great addition to my collection which is now twice as good as it was before. I for one am very happy that somebody decided to go back and re-visit some old licenses.

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Posts: 29023 | Location: wolverhampton staffs uk | Registered: July 19, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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happy jack has a great idea - at least a parallel base set of each title created as such would give the CORE collector and those with limited income to spend an opportunity to collect each and every set they desire and the parallel set would not harm the value of the set put out by the premium pack - good job "jack"
 
Posts: 198 | Location: United States | Registered: December 26, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by HAPPY JACK:
quote:
Originally posted by sittin9duck:
quote:
Originally posted by Sidewinder:
Remember when you used to trade your base card doubles to get other base cards you were missing? This all died out when people bought boxes or cases and base sets could be made so easily. With the Premium Format base cards are less common and you have to go back to trading for the ones you're missing. I don't see this as a bad thing at all really.


It took me a year to get 1 base card when I was willing to pay over half of what a full base set would of cost for the one card and you can't trade for a card that's just not available.

I don't mind premium pack but the simple truth is that it kills the chance for those who like to collect the base sets of every set without having to spend a fortune on them.


I think Rittenhouse has done a great job trying to appease all the different types of collectors. They were bold enough to try out this new format with the premium packs. Remember that it is still very new. It is obviously a format that they have geared towards the hard core collectors. And most of them are much rarer than if they had been in boxes, and collectors love rarity.

I do have a solution to the premium pack problem though. They could continue to make them for the "serious" collectors and ALSO make "base sets only" available for the average collectors who just want a set. They could even make them a different type of parallel version.

Just an idea


Fair idea, how much would you suggest MSRP for these sets be, and how much would you expect the manufacturers to wholesale them for?

I think this is the problem -- I would imagine that dealer want to be able to still sell these for $10-15 (or less) on a base set, which means the manufacturer has to wholesale them for $5-7? Unless they can make that up in massive volume I just don't see it worth their effort, and I actually wouldn't be surprised if they are losing money at that rate. . .

Ultimately part of the issue is that the base set has been devalued so much that I bet they are frequently selling on the secondary market for less than it costs the manufacturers to make them.

I would guess in order to make it worth a manufacturers time and money to sell a base set directly it would put it out of the $10-15 range that dealers want to sell at. . .
 
Posts: 5429 | Location: Parts Unknown. | Registered: January 25, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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Originally posted by HAPPY JACK:

I do have a solution to the premium pack problem though. They could continue to make them for the "serious" collectors and ALSO make "base sets only" available for the average collectors who just want a set. They could even make them a different type of parallel version.

Just an idea


If they made a parallel 'direct' version, as a completist, I would probably want both Roll Eyes Also, as Jon notes, it would be hard to manufacture and ship these at a low enough price.

What's wrong with just increasing the number of base cards in premium packs so that about 4 packs gets you the set? A box buyer would then have a couple of spare sets for the secondary market and a casual buyer has a reason to go for multiple packs and trade. I know I'm repeating myself, but I can't seem to get any traction on this idea, or comment on why it's no good.
 
Posts: 1574 | Location: temp UK, usually Australia | Registered: July 31, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I think what you have suggested Tangent is the easiest and maybe the most economical way of adding more base sets to these Premium packs without losing their rarity. Thumb Up
Because at the moment it seems there just aren't enough base sets to go around, I think they just have to work out a happy medium for both parties.

The way I have always thought of the Premium packs is that, it obviously wasn't viable to make them in the normal box version, so it is Premium packs or no set at all.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Juelle Lou,
 
Posts: 1512 | Location: Australia | Registered: October 23, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I remember back in the 60's, when a pack of cards (with a piece of bubble gum), was $.05. A box of 24 packs - $1.20. Now a pack of cards - $45.00 +. And to get a binder and hopefully buy different packs - $250.00 +. Card companies must think we all won megy-bucks. Too much $$ for me to buy, as some packs of Avengers cards are $1.99 for a pack of 7 or $4.99 for a double pack (30 cards), and 1 company has the same pack of 7 cards for $6.99.

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Posts: 2744 | Location: Haverhill, Ma. U.S.A. | Registered: June 10, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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isn't the title of this topic bothering anyone - it should be "IS" Rittenhouse destroying the hobby - or is it just the retired educator in me and NO they are not
 
Posts: 198 | Location: United States | Registered: December 26, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by tangent:
What's wrong with just increasing the number of base cards in premium packs so that about 4 packs gets you the set? A box buyer would then have a couple of spare sets for the secondary market and a casual buyer has a reason to go for multiple packs and trade. I know I'm repeating myself, but I can't seem to get any traction on this idea, or comment on why it's no good.


This. 100 times this.

I don't collect very many cards these days, but I do like to collect base sets for Star Trek and Stargate and it's just too expensive for me to put together the premium pack sets. I tried with SGU season 2, but ran out of steam since paying $3 a card wasn't working for me and the individual cards don't show up in quantity on eBay. I like premium packs, but I would love them if they would increase the base cards to 7-8 a pack and make it easier to complete a set. I mean, I will want a Falling Skies base set, but I will probably never put one together at 3 cards a pack.

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Posts: 1562 | Location: Milwaukee, WI | Registered: November 27, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Increasing the amount of base cards in a premium pack would be a good idea, make it 4 base cards, 1 chase and 3 hits. The base set for Warehouse 13 was only 26 cards as compared to the usual 72 or more, so this format is probably best suited to shows with less than 15 episodes per season.
 
Posts: 1228 | Location: Australia | Registered: November 05, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by sherlock2:
isn't the title of this topic bothering anyone - it should be "IS" Rittenhouse destroying the hobby - or is it just the retired educator in me and NO they are not


Well we are all guilty of butchering the language from time to time. Big Grin What bothers me more about the title is that RA was singled out when most of the conversation is rightly about the premium pack format.

RA may have put out earlier PP products and done more of them, but the format has been adapted by other manufacturers, and it was created in response to collector complaints. It may not be good for every collector, its certainly not good for every title, but RA destroying the hobby? Come on . . . be serious. Roll Eyes

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Raven,
 
Posts: 10515 | Location: New York | Registered: November 20, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I wonder what would happen if in some future release they did a test and did both a regular release and Premium pack release and let dealers/collectors choose what they want to order, maybe make it something like 80% regular boxes and 20% Premium packs and see what interest in the versions really is, the ratio could be adjusted up or down for future releases depending on the response .

I'll be honest, if that happened and a regular box and premium pack had the exact same breakdown (say 1 auto, 2 costumes and 3 or 4 inserts) except that the premium only had a few base cards I'd likely order the Premium as it would likely be at least a little cheaper to buy, and definitely cheaper to ship due to reduced size and weight.
Being in Canada selling excess base sets is virtually impossible, Canada Post has no inexpensive way to ship sets, I think just postage to the U.S. for your basic 72 or 90 card set is over $10, not even counting packaging, overseas is far more. That's a big deterrent on sets that sell for $3-$5. So, all I really need is 1 base set for myself

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Posts: 5142 | Location: Vancouver/B.C./Canada | Registered: October 13, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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NCIS is surprising to be released as a premium pack, because it is a huge hit of a show.

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