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Are Rittenhouse destroying the hobby?
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Picture of Pumpkindiver
posted
It just seems that these premium pack sets are designed to keep dealers happy but low end (non master set collectors) are totally turned off. The fact that base set cards are rarer than costumes for Eureka just puzzles me. Personally I would really like a base set for NCIS, Falling Skies, Eureka, Warehouse 13 and SGU 2. Normally I would complete a mini master set and pick up the Auto/Costume/Relics that interest me, Now it seems that thanks to dealers complaining about getting hundreds of base sets, the average collector is being totally forgotten. I'm so glat that Cryptozoic have come along and are releasing standard sets (even if the chase sets are quite dull and top end auto's are really tough to come by)

Sorry, I've had my rant now

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Posts: 154 | Location: Australia | Registered: July 24, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of Ryan Cracknell
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I'll keep my take to your question short and sweet: no.

More detail: Rittenhouse still is releasing "traditional" sets. In fact, they did just yesterday and another one before that last month.

Without the premium take on sets, there would be fewer sets. The demand for a "traditional" set would most likely mean no Eureka. Same for Spartacus. Same for a second set of Warehouse 13. Rittenhouse is evolving. Are all of their sets for everyone? No. Nor should they be.

Today's hobby has lots of different types of collectors. Rittenhouse is merely trying to reach as many as possible, just like every other company making cards today.

Who is this "average collector" that you refer to? I don't think such a thing exists. Different people have different tastes. And just like there's a variety of different sets out there, so too are there a variety of collectors. Just because premium packs aren't your thing (they're not really mine either, by the way), doesn't mean they're "destroying the hobby." I'd argue it's the opposite because they're doing what they can to survive and continue to make cards.

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Posts: 1178 | Location: Nanaimo, BC | Registered: November 17, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
NSU Writer
Picture of Don Norton
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Ryan said it very well, but let me add that Rittenhouse is doing everything thay can to keep this hobby going. They give us standard sets, such as James Bond 50th or Game of Thrones, with 2 or 3 big hits, when some other companies provide for the same price, only one "hit", so they are giving the collector value for his money. I was disapointed that Falling Skies was going to be a premium set, since I just can't afford to buy many packs, but there are many collectors who don't mind this type of packaging, and they can get close to a master set with just one box.
Premium packs are here to stay, and I expect we'll see lots more in the future.Our friends at Brygent are trying to shake things up a little with different marketing techniques too.
 
Posts: 2922 | Location: Crystal Lake, IL | Registered: December 04, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of H_Toser
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quote:
Originally posted by Ryan Cracknell:
Different people have different tastes. And just like there's a variety of different sets out there, so too are there a variety of collectors. Just because premium packs aren't your thing (they're not really mine either, by the way), doesn't mean they're "destroying the hobby." I'd argue it's the opposite because they're doing what they can to survive and continue to make cards.


I whole-heartedly agree with what Ryan posted above.

Also, Steve Charendoff has said that when it comes to some of these titles (like some of those you point out Pumpkindiver), it is either premium pack sets or no sets. He doesn't feel there is enough demand in the hobby for foil boxes of some of these titles.

If Rittenhouse wasn't doing premium pack sets for these, the argument here would be why hasn't any of the card companies picked up the license for NCIS, Falling Skies, etc. instead.
 
Posts: 13005 | Location: Harrisburg, PA, USA | Registered: November 29, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Diamond Card Talk Member
Picture of Raven
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Speaking only for myself, I am not a master set collector, but I wouldn't consider myself a low end collector either. I spend too much money on cards for that, but not enough to be a high roller case buyer. My answer would be NO, premium packs are not destroying the hobby. It is an alternative format that works well on the right titles. Not all product are the right titles and I don't like some of these smallish updates to premium pack products.

But recently I have been a lot more upset about the content of some traditional boxes than what I have ever found in the premium packs I have bought in the past. Remember that a premium pack is only $35 to $40 and you are generally ensured to get two autographs or material cards or some combination thereof. If you are interested in nothing else, you could just say it averages out to $20 per hit. So if you get common hits, they still are worth $8 to $10 each. So what I'm saying is, you are getting reasonable value and are not really losing a lot in the process. Plus you still have a chance to pull a hit of much greater value.

As to the base set, it is a lot harder to collect and those cards may mathematically work out to be rarer than some of the hits, but master collectors can always find them online if they want to complete it. I don't, but wasn't base sets selling for $5 one of the biggest complaints that collectors had before premium packs. Wink
 
Posts: 10518 | Location: New York | Registered: November 20, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of tangent
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I don't mind the premium packs but I would actively like them if the mix was a little different. I want the base set to be able to be constructed from about 4 packs. So, if it's a 26 card base set, there should be 7 base cards per premium pack.

This would still keep costs and excess base sets low, but would make some base sets available on the secondary market and also give the 'more than a box, less than a case' buyers a good quantity to pick.
 
Posts: 1574 | Location: temp UK, usually Australia | Registered: July 31, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of Incarnadine
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I have to say no.

While I do have some issues with certain specific things, on the whole RA is still the best Non Sport company going, although Crytozoic is hot on their heels.

For a while RA was getting stale with the same old licenses making up too many of their releases, but they have been getting a much larger variety lately.

Premium packs don't bother me in the least, if a set doesn't warrant a full release at least this format gives whatever collector base they have a chance to get cards. I even like the idea of the base cards being limited, heck, they should go a step further and serial number the base cards like they do in certain premium sports card releases where the common base cards are actually scarce, it might perk up interest in base sets a bit.

Incentives are a tricky problem, they are good for product sales, the problem is that they are maybe too good. They get dealers to order more product than they otherwise would, which tends to result in a stagnant release where the cards set a value at release and don't change much, or if the set is weak it ends up being discounted not long after release. Supply ends up a bit larger than demand.
While it's hard to resist the $$$ a popular license can generate by making a large print run, but it's probably better in the long run to keep the print run lower and have the product more highly valued after release, it sets up high interest in follow up sets (this is where Cryptozoic has excelled so far).

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Posts: 5142 | Location: Vancouver/B.C./Canada | Registered: October 13, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of Pumpkindiver
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All valid points, and I understand the industry is doing well because of these types of sets. I just feel that the "Hobby" aspect is dying and it is becoming more about dealers. Especially with things like Game of Thrones with the top 2 auto's being case incentives (I understand the need for case incentives, but maybe an auto'd costume or something instead of taking the top 2 out of packs). I agree with Tangent that increasing the amount of base cards per pack would help.

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Posts: 154 | Location: Australia | Registered: July 24, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of Stargaterules
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I personally look at it like this . If there are cards coming out for a show i like personally i am happy in any format . The only thing that kills me is the low autograph print runs for certain sets . If the Premium boxes had complete sets of all the cards for the set I would feel better about it . NCIS for one i am drooling for and hope to get a full auto set in a box . The set i would really give anything for isn't anything but a pipe dream since Inkworks went out . Dr Who ( the new series ) seasons 1-6 ( 7 ) . To get auto's from that set ... I would pay just about anything for that in ANY format and buy till i turned blue or got a set. Darn BBC for not allowing another company to pick that up .
The thing to look at is what is selling out and what isn't for Rittenhouse . I personally want to see them for many , many years to come in the industry and if Premium boxes are the only way for it to happen . I will just buy what i can when i can .

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Stargaterules,
 
Posts: 91 | Location: Florida | Registered: December 16, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of igman7
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quote:
Originally posted by Incarnadine:
Incentives are a tricky problem, they are good for product sales, the problem is that they are maybe too good. They get dealers to order more product than they otherwise would, which tends to result in a stagnant release where the cards set a value at release and don't change much, or if the set is weak it ends up being discounted not long after release. Supply ends up a bit larger than demand.
While it's hard to resist the $$$ a popular license can generate by making a large print run, but it's probably better in the long run to keep the print run lower and have the product more highly valued after release, it sets up high interest in follow up sets (this is where Cryptozoic has excelled so far).


This, I wholeheartedly agree with. While I respect the product that RA puts out, the way that things work within their current business model does nobody any favors except for those willing to plunk doen $13k-$15k per release.

I think their premium pack products indeed fill a void for those who want products from shows with small to mid sized audiences.

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Posts: 1492 | Location: Tinley Park, Illinois, USA | Registered: May 31, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of hammer
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I think the premium pack is good for those licences that can't support a full box release as it allows RA to try shows that otherwise wouldn't get a release.
 
Posts: 12176 | Location: England | Registered: September 16, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post



Silver Card Talk Member
Picture of Juelle Lou
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quote:
Originally posted by hammer:
I think the premium pack is good for those licences that can't support a full box release as it allows RA to try shows that otherwise wouldn't get a release.


That's how I feel, it's better than not getting anything.
 
Posts: 1512 | Location: Australia | Registered: October 23, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of wolfie
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The only problem i see is the base set situation has not changed.

Before dealers had base sets they could not sell because there were too many of them. Now they are going to have base sets they can't sell because they are too expensive.

Collectors in the past could buy a base set and be happy with that but that option has been taken away by premium packs due to the large cost of the base set and it's no good saying that the base set is rarer and has more value if you can't afford to buy it.

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Posts: 29023 | Location: wolverhampton staffs uk | Registered: July 19, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of Raj
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If dealers can't sell base sets because they're too expensive then they can always reduce the price.
 
Posts: 3261 | Location: Luton, UK | Registered: October 07, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of hammer
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quote:
Originally posted by wolfie:
The only problem i see is the base set situation has not changed.

Before dealers had base sets they could not sell because there were too many of them. Now they are going to have base sets they can't sell because they are too expensive.

Collectors in the past could buy a base set and be happy with that but that option has been taken away by premium packs due to the large cost of the base set and it's no good saying that the base set is rarer and has more value if you can't afford to buy it.


Classic case of you can't have everything!! I paid $35 for the warehose 13 base set and was happy with that - limited to 500 but I reckon actual sets are much less than that as there are 4 cards spare in each box meaning these are less likely to make full sets Smile
 
Posts: 12176 | Location: England | Registered: September 16, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of wolfie
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quote:
Originally posted by Raj:
If dealers can't sell base sets because they're too expensive then they can always reduce the price.


Thats the point though Raj, they can't reduce the price as it cost them so much to buy the premium packs.

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Posts: 29023 | Location: wolverhampton staffs uk | Registered: July 19, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of cardinalfan13
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I have Purchased several premium format boxes and in every case it was cheaper then a regular case release of cards and I felt I got more value beacause the base and inserts where numbered

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Posts: 614 | Location: Missouri | Registered: March 24, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of tangent
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Incardine and cardinalfan13 have both supported the numbering of base sets. I actually hate the base sets being numbered. There's no chance of getting matching numbers so what's the point? It just makes printing more expensive. What's the advantage?
 
Posts: 1574 | Location: temp UK, usually Australia | Registered: July 31, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by tangent:
Incardine and cardinalfan13 have both supported the numbering of base sets. I actually hate the base sets being numbered. There's no chance of getting matching numbers so what's the point? It just makes printing more expensive. What's the advantage?

It's proof that there are only X amount of cards in existence.
 
Posts: 1577 | Location: NJ | Registered: August 28, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of tangent
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quote:
Originally posted by Ted Dastick Jr.:
It's proof that there are only X amount of cards in existence.


Seems easier to just state it in the website or checklist, that's all that is done for autos and sketches which are more valuable.
 
Posts: 1574 | Location: temp UK, usually Australia | Registered: July 31, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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