Please do let us know when these `hit the market' or if some may be available to us on here. Just like John above me said I would like an uncut sheet of Dinosaurs Attacks on my wall.

My thought would be a traveling card show. Rent a U-haul and make your way to the East coast ending at the Philly show. Stop at as many shows as you can on the way. This way you are dispersing the cards as you go and not just dumping them all on e-bay. If the members on here knew you were coming to the Philly show you would kill it!

quote:

Originally posted by webjon:
First, there never were many brick and mortar dealers. At one point you could find comic and sports card shops that had a little corner of non-sport stuff set up, and that's still true, but in general comic and sports card shops are fewer and further between.

As for eBay. . . well. . . that's an entirely different ball of wax. I don't think eBay is to blame for the death of dealers. . . and realistically I don't think the hobby would exist today without eBay (or another online venue). I don't think the hobby has evolved to take advantage the way collectors collect in 2014.

Have to disagree with here webjon, but you are likely a lot younger than me, so perhaps when you started getting interested in cards things had already changed. It also depends on where you live, as not all areas of the country would have the same businesses. Try getting a decent bagel or pizza in certain American cities.

Go back to late eighties and early nineties and there certainly were many brick and mortar collectible stores in metro areas. They were not exclusive to sports cards for the most part, and non-sport cards were very hard to find from regular dealers, but stores were there in my area. It was a cottage industry for awhile after the baseball card market exploded.

As for eBay, it did not create the hobby. Card collecting existed and was doing quite well before it and would have remained in existence without it.

I do concede that it helped non-sport cards because the market was so small before and it made those titles available to collectors that didn't have ready access to any sellers where they lived. But could that not have been accomplished just through the world wide web without eBay? Are we not able to reach dealers in other states using websites and email?

Yes we could have grown the hobby without eBay, but its an academic debate because it came and it conquered and it destroyed.

quote:

Originally posted by Raven:

quote:

Originally posted by webjon:
First, there never were many brick and mortar dealers. At one point you could find comic and sports card shops that had a little corner of non-sport stuff set up, and that's still true, but in general comic and sports card shops are fewer and further between.

As for eBay. . . well. . . that's an entirely different ball of wax. I don't think eBay is to blame for the death of dealers. . . and realistically I don't think the hobby would exist today without eBay (or another online venue). I don't think the hobby has evolved to take advantage the way collectors collect in 2014.

Have to disagree with here webjon......<edited>

<edited> non-sport cards were very hard to find from regular dealers, but stores were there in my area. It was a cottage industry for awhile after the baseball card market exploded.

As for eBay, it did not create the hobby. Card collecting existed and was doing quite well before it and would have remained in existence without it.

. . . I'm not sure what you are disagreeing with . . . We both made the same point about non-sport cards being hard to find at brick and mortar, even when collectibles stores existed. . .

I never said that eBay created the hobby. . . As for the state of the hobby now on eBay now. . . well. . . lots could be written about that. . . Ultimately if it wasn't eBay it would be something else taking the place of it.

I guess it's really "e-commerce" has changed how every industry does business (well, maybe not landscapers and large boulder removal).
I think it's in style to hate on eBay the way everyone did with Microsoft.

I know some of the main ebay sellers also have store fronts on Amazon, but does anyone really go there to buy cards?

quote:

Originally posted by desertcoast:
Is there reliable data anywhere to quantify the "hobby" or how much is has grown/contracted? Some businesses...that analysis is easily done; I'm not sure how to do so in this case.

Interesting statement about the hobby not evolving to how collectors collect in 2014. Exactly how have they changed...and is eBay cause or effect of that change?
As a kid, Wacky Packs were a lifestyle. I anticipated the new release; it was social as we all went to a Walgreens and bought the new series...we didn't even wait to get home. We sat down outside the door of the store and ripped into them...it was tactile; smell; feel.
Fast forward...Topps has a virtual trading card app.
New collectors aren't loitering outside Walgreens..they're setting up saved searches with text/email pings and completing sets with efficiency.

I don't think you'll be able to find much information about how much the hobby has grown or contracted. . . Perhaps you could compare the quantity of boxes of a given product over a period of time, but given that we are dealing with an enormous amount of dumped product in this conversation that number doesn't seem to be the least bit reliable.

How has the hobby changed? Well, I think you have a pretty nice summary actually. . .

There are certainly segments to the hobby today that didn't exist in the early 1990s. . . Some of the kids who were loitering at Walgreens are still buying, but many (nearly all) of them are demanding a more premium product -- hits are basically a requirement of a hobby release.

Base sets are basically worthless, and to a hit collector anything more than 1 set generally becomes a burden. Hit collectors tend to buy multiple boxes, and therefore tend to wind up with a pile of very low value cards they don't really care about.

It's not obvious how to solve that problem -- many collectors demand a base set, so leaving base out entirely seems like a bad idea. Collectors have become accustom to buying sets for next to nothing, so trying to get the set value up to $20+ generates backlash from set collectors, the only way non-sport product sells well at a POS terminal is via packs. . . and packs are mostly base cards. Perhaps base cards should only be available in retail packs, and hobby packs should be premium products (I sense pitchforks).

Speaking of pitchforks. . . I think the other place the hobby has struggled to evolve is distribution. The newsstand model that kept cards at every corner store back in the day is long dead. What's sprung up to replace it is a mash up of things, mostly relying on flippers and part time dealers. MSRP . . . well MSRP isn't even a suggestion anymore. The distribution method is so broken that nothing sells at (or even generally near) MSRP unless you buy it from a manufacturer. The dealer network itself is too small to be effective. I live in the Chicago metro area and there isn't a single brick and mortar store I know of that I can buy non-sport product from a company like Breygent. This hasn't really evolved either. . . Some manufacturers are trying to make changes, but it's going to be a long time until there is meaningful change. . .

To come full circle. . . Hit collectors are often buying in the same quantities as small to mid-range dealers. At some point -- shouldn't collectors buying in a certain quantity get the same pricing and availability benefits as dealers buying in the same quantities?

Anyway. . . from my vantage point it seems like several key areas of the hobby haven't kept up with the hobby.

Then again as John T complained about on page 8 -- his Dino Attacks boxes were blacked out -- even in the 80s there were production and distribution problems. . . perhaps the more things change the more they stay the same.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: webjon,

Just a quick chime in on the Ebay debate. Good or bad for cards, or somewhere in between, only time can really tell on that, but I can say with no reservations whatsoever that my own card collection has benefitted immeasurably from the existence of Ebay, not only the cards I've bought from there, but also the worldwide seller's marketplace they essentially created that's enabled me to sell my extra cards, and, as a direct result, buy more cards than I ever could have on my regular work salary.

Someone stated earlier that the dinosaurs attacks sheet was 132. But they may have guessed that because that was a standard Topps sheet size. I have a sheet and its all 55. Now maybe it was part of a 110 card sheet with the others trimmed off. Or a 132 sheet with the other 7 rows of 11 trimmed off. I'm away from home and can't look at it now but I have it framed and can say it's one of my favorite wall decorations. Common or not, the art is great and so is the story. I'd rather have that in all my sets rather than bland art and puzzle backs but rare!

quote:

Originally posted by zhamlau:
according to the boxes, Warriors of Plasm and Dark Dominion had Steve Ditko Sketch cards in them. Ive never seen or heard of one, but the advertising claimed they existed if i remember correctly. But the odds were impossible as there were supposedly 10 for each set made in total.

Those of course, would be the most valuable non sport cards of all time IMO. Signed Ditko sketch card, from a man who has been photographed i think like 5 times in the last 50 years, who defined the shadow side of marvel comics. God, that would be something neat to have. Sidetracking, sorry.

First of all, Steve Ditko had nothing to do with Plasm. Only Dark Dominion had original art cards.

I found proof of this after looking any evidence of this for many years. I am going to put the information and picture on the other topic.

David

As a lifetime sports card collector who has recently moved into the Non-Sport space, I am surprised at some of the negativity on this thread. Whether its sports or non-sports, you should know that 99% of what is produced will NOT increase in value. Like most things in this world, it comes down to quality, and supply and demand. Michael Jordan rookies are worth a lot because a lot of people want them. This decade has been all about superheroes, and will continue to be that way going forward. My 2 sons told me that they did not care about Mickey Mantle, and here I was with a run of Mantle cards for each that I had put together since they were newborns. I sold them and moved into the superhero autograph cards, and have been not only pleased with how much my boys like it, but the relative limited nature, along with a generation inundated with comic culture ( Wizard-World and cons everywhere, The Big Bang Theory, and the biggest movies each year)..I think there is great potential...I am guessing that 20 years from now there will be a group of young adults craving what is coming out right now...Now, if only Chris Evans, Christian Bale, and Scarlett Johansson had autograph cards...

quote: "I am guessing that 20 years from now there will be a group of young adults craving what is coming out right now..."

An interesting observation. I've been saying something similar with respect to all the Harry Potter memorabilia.

Well hasn't that always been the way, only now it's more so. I mean, the key words are young adults, which is what 20's, 30's?

How many modern adult collectors got interested in trading cards as kids, moved on to something else and then came back into the hobby as they found themselves with jobs and disposable income. I know I did.

Kids today can still grow up wanting to own trading cards, be it from sports or the superhero sets of non-sport, if they get exposed to them. Unfortunately the best cards may be out of their reach because of the prices, but that just means that 20 years from now they may well decide to catch that "white whale" that they wanted, but couldn't have.

And the cards will still be there, even limited ones, because unlike the bubblegum cards of Mantle, they were made as manufactured collectibles from the start. No one is flipping them, no one is putting them in bike spokes and even mothers know better than to just throw them away.

There is no comparing the card made even in the past 20 years to a vintage card. They are two different animals and not just because they are created with so many more bells and whistles. Early cards were overproduced that's very true, but the supply was naturally depleted over the years and if the demand held steady or went up, there was your value, there was your market, especially for cards that retained higher grades. Modern cards are now often released at their peak prices and are slabbed, or put in cases and binders as soon as they come out of packs. They are staying in collections, under optimum conditions, and over time they will be sold or passed down, one way or the other. The supply, however limited, will not be significantly depleted or damaged, and the demand will be driven by collectors that are very likely in their second childhood.

I think 20 years from now the problem with young adults wanting to go after the cards of today is that they may have never collected cards from the get-go. As stated previously many times over, kids today just don't collect cards. It's a different generation. Most cards now are geared toward serious (adult) collectors. A lot of us grew up collecting cards in one way or another. I know I did. If there's no fondness there or good memories or sentimentality, I don't see how very many 30 year-olds 20 years from now are going to catch on and start collecting. Maybe some will, but most probably won't. Plus there's a lot of people who believe the whole trading card industry is dying anyway. I remember watching an episode of "Comic Book Men" earlier this year and someone brought in an album with the full run of Rittenhouse Twilight Zone autographs to sell. And then after the shop manager Walt Flanagan went through the album and talked about how cool the cards were and how they were a "who's who" of the some of the best actors of all-time, he handed the album back to the seller and said it was against the store's policy to deal in cards. He said trading cards were essentially a "pyramid scheme". I found that so disheartening.

quote:

Originally posted by sthomas:
quote: "I am guessing that 20 years from now there will be a group of young adults craving what is coming out right now..."

An interesting observation. I've been saying something similar with respect to all the Harry Potter memorabilia.

Not at the prices dealers are asking for them at the moment, Scott. Costume cards that were, in their heyday, no more than £10 are now hitting the £50 mark. Because something is old doesn't mean it's worth more. I've seen one dealer gradually up his price on a prop card from £800 (which I thought was well over the top), to an eye-watering £1600. We are seeing a lot more re-listings lasting years. I've seen a few dealers go out of business because they couldn't let cards go for less than they were asking, and end up selling their stock for a fraction of their perceived worth.

Will people know who Harry Potter was 20 years from now ?

Last night I was watching a talk show and they asked a woman who appeared to be in her late 20s/early 30s to identify a photo of the cast of "All the Family" and she had no idea what show it was-- Archie Bunker, etc. Amazing

Raven, I am stunned how few non-sports cards are actually being graded. As a PSA Member, I can see the numbers, and am surprised how few have been submitted. I get that Beckett also grades, but nonetheless, there aren't a lot of graded Non-Sports items up for sale on Ebay...

Logan, while I enjoy watching Comic Book men, keep in mind that they are highly jaded in their opinion. There is a dealer here who I have said should get some of the cards, but he refuses, and brushes off the idea. Some seem to be pretty simple creatures who are stuck in their ways, and are living on a tight budget, and don't want to deviate from their core competency...As in cards, most comics are never going to rise. It's all about key issues..The autographed cards are one of the only ways to ensure that you are getting a legit autograph from that star...The costume cards are, IMO, nowhere near as desirable...

quote:

Originally posted by Logan:
I think 20 years from now the problem with young adults wanting to go after the cards of today is that they may have never collected cards from the get-go.

And that is the elephant in the room. If you don't include gaming cards or maybe Disney type cards, how many kids are buying non-sport cards? To Graham's point, how many kids can afford it, when we as employed adults can only go so far?

So if you want that young adult collector in the future, as you have had in the past, you have got to get them exposed to the hobby. For non-sport cards, Marvel and DC superheroes are probably the most logical gateway. Star Wars may take off again, but the cards are already geared up to be adult collectibles, which the original sets were not.

Fact is, times have changed and what worked for vintage cards doesn't work now. While we all pretty much agree that we want cheaper cards that can be enjoyed by kids, we also want the limited, hit laden premium sets for ourselves. Except of course when we discover that we can no longer afford them either. It gets complicated, which is why you have to remember that this is all for fun, and it's up to the individual to keep it fun or change it until it is.

By the way, I take none of these comments to be negative. Just collectors making observations based on their experience. We all love collecting trading cards or autograph cards or sketches or relics or whatever. It's all about getting more information and other viewpoints and no one has a crystal ball, so there is no correct answer.

quote:

Originally posted by boadster:
Raven, I am stunned how few non-sports cards are actually being graded. As a PSA Member, I can see the numbers, and am surprised how few have been submitted. I get that Beckett also grades, but nonetheless, there aren't a lot of graded Non-Sports items up for sale on Ebay...

For many years I collected sports cards, I moved over exclusively to non-sport around 2002 because I loved the certified autograph cards of celebrities and had frankly lost interest in all the excesses of the sports card industry. At the time there were very distinct differences between sports card collectors and non-sport card collectors. In recent years the lines have begun to blur regarding the card manufacturing, but the mentality of a true collector is still a lot different.

One of the big differences is on the grading issue. Grading cards took over the sports card industry for awhile, it has since eased up. Grading in the non-sport industry never took off the same way. Card condition is rarely discussed or is mentioned just in passing. It's one of the things I like about non-sport cards as I see no need for grading unless it's a vintage card of a certain value, a modern card of extreme value, or some question of verifying that it is not counterfeit or repaired. Most modern cards that have been put in a binder since they came out of the pack are simply not going to fetch the premium that a grade might get you above the fee of getting it graded.

Another reason for fewer graded non-sport cards is that non-sport collectors are frequently set builders. Unless you want to grade every card in the set, the graded card does not fit in with the collection.

There is definitely a time and a place for graded cards, but it is something that is not necessary for the vast majority of cards in my opinion.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Raven,

Card collecting is a heck of a lot different than when I started collecting cards, which was many moons ago! Lived in a small town, rarely saw cards of any type, so when some did show up they got gobbled up pretty fast! With the internet today, you could live anywhere and buy anything you want! Collectors today are pretty much looking for the inserts mostly, as they feature something, like autographs, swatch cards, die-cuts and others! Back when, there was pretty much the set, sometimes a subset, but they only came every now or then! Now there are cards of pretty much everything, from television shows, movies, comic books and other cards featuring something or other! Kids still pretty much are into sports cards, as they can have something of their idols they watch on tv, or the sports teams they root for! I have collected both, still do, as you never really let go of the cards you grew up with! Still something I enjoy doing, like opening a pack to see what's inside, brings the kid out in me I guess!

David,

Years ago, I put a magazine cut-out photo of the "Mod Squad" cast (TV show) on my brother's refrigerator. His girlfriend at the time looked at it and asked me who they were. I said, "That's my Uncle Pete, my Aunt Julie, my Uncle Linc, and he's the Captain." She said "Oh" and then went back to what she was doing.

Jess

quote:

Originally posted by David R:
Will people know who Harry Potter was 20 years from now ?

Last night I was watching a talk show and they asked a woman who appeared to be in her late 20s/early 30s to identify a photo of the cast of "All the Family" and she had no idea what show it was-- Archie Bunker, etc. Amazing

That's because only old people know old things!