quote:

Originally posted by barobehere:

quote:

Originally posted by wolfie:

quote:

Originally posted by barobehere:

2. Current customers are dropping 3.99/4.99 comics to.... buy comics from the 80's and 90s from the budget bins. Why buy 1 issue of the current Spider-Man series when you can by 5 issue from the 90's for the same amount of money.

So where does the blame lie for this? If a Spiderman comic costs $5 now one from the 90's should be worth at least that much, the fact that it is not worth anything shows what the $5 comic will be worth 10 years from now. If there was no bargain bin the comic would hold it's price. The same goes for cards, if all the older cards which now fetch next to nothing were all destroyed the ones that were left would be worth something.

There is no one to blame just a change.

When I was buying comics as a kid they were 35 to 50cents. When I closed my shop DC has a slogan called Drawing the line at 2.99!

The individual hobbyist determines what is the value of an item.

Ah yes but that is my point, the hobbyist is not determining the price the store is by having a bargain bin. All those comics / cards should be destroyed then the ones that were left would be worth more.

quote:

Originally posted by Raven:

quote:

Originally posted by webjon:
I don't understand why there isn't crossover with gaming stores. While I do see some sports card/comic stores that add gaming I have been in a TON of gaming stores that have no idea what I am talking about when I ask for entertainment cards.

While you may have visited a ton of gaming stores, have you ever stopped to talk to a gamer? I don't think so, or else you wouldn't be asking why gaming stores don't sell entertainment cards. Nobody wants them, that's why.

Gamers are not card collectors. They are generally teenagers or young adults, or at least young-minded adults, who regard gaming as a competition and a skill. They run in local packs, with local meeting places. Gaming can't be a solitary pursuit since you must play the game with a group. The purchase of cards has the goal of getting a deck that can win the game. And new game editions and new game rules keep coming out.

None of that has anything to do with entertainment cards. Its not a crossover. Its not even a shared obsession. Some gamers may be fan boys of Marvel or DC, but they are spending their money on functional gaming cards, not on Black Panther boxes. Its as simple as that.

Originally posted by webjon:
That's a wildly inaccurate assumption.
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Not wildly inaccurate, creative license at worst, but I apologize if you have talked to gamers.

Still my response is the same. Gamers have a reason to buy gaming cards other than wanting to collect binders of cards or hoping that values go up. They are playing the game, whichever one it is. Sports card collectors are much more inclined to be in tune with non-sport card collectors than any gamer. At least they are operating under a similar mindset in terms of collecting cards for the sake of building a collection.

By the way, you said gaming stores and I've been talking about CCG players only. If you are bringing up stores like Game Stop, where they are selling interactive computer games like Call to Arms and Grand Theft Auto, those kind of gamers really have no crossover interest in trading cards.

quote:

Originally posted by Raven:
Originally posted by webjon:
That's a wildly inaccurate assumption.
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Not wildly inaccurate, creative license at worst, but I apologize if you have talked to gamers.

Nope.

Your assumptions about me are wildly inaccurate.

Trust me -- we are talking about me here.

quote:

Originally posted by webjon:

quote:

Originally posted by Raven:
Originally posted by webjon:
That's a wildly inaccurate assumption.
_____________________________________________

Not wildly inaccurate, creative license at worst, but I apologize if you have talked to gamers.

Nope.

Your assumptions about me are wildly inaccurate.

Trust me -- we are talking about me here.

So I guess what you are hinting at is that you are a big CCG player or interactive game player or both. Good for you, its hard to keep up multiple hobbies, but that combination of non-sport and gamer is not a common one. I wouldn't call that an assumption on my part, since I base it on my experience of talking to gamers I know. We all meet at the LHS and I am not interested in buying their CCG boxes and they are not interested in buying my non-sport boxes.

That is a generalization of course. I'm sure individual gamers might be interested in a Star Wars or Avengers title, but they are the exceptions and that still doesn't make them card collectors. Around 1994 I was buying Magic cards without knowing anything about the game. I lost interest when the card editions kept coming out and I eventually sold everything. Why? Because I wasn't really a gamer at all.

As you yourself posted, "in fact I don't think I've ever been to a gaming store that carried sport or entertainment cards". That's not surprising, the customers don't ask for cards. A few gamers may collect cards, but the majority are only interested in their hobby. That's just my opinion based on what I see in my area. It doesn't sound as though you really disagree, just that you are more multi-faceted.

My point was simple -- I see lots of comic shops that carry gaming/non-sport cards -- but no gaming stores that carry collectible cards. I also see a lot of show dealers who sell both products. I totally disagree, based on my personal experiences, about there being no crossover.

Additionally a number of gaming manufacturers are also big trading card manufacturers. So at the very least I would expect that when I walk into a gaming store that carries Upper Deck games or Cryptozoic games and asked about buying Upper Deck cards or Cryptozic cards they would have an understanding that other cards exist.

quote:

Originally posted by webjon:
My point was simple -- I see lots of comic shops that carry gaming/non-sport cards -- but no gaming stores that carry collectible cards. I also see a lot of show dealers who sell both products. I totally disagree, based on my personal experiences, about there being no crossover.

Additionally a number of gaming manufacturers are also big trading card manufacturers. So at the very least I would expect that when I walk into a gaming store that carries Upper Deck games or Cryptozoic games and asked about buying Upper Deck cards or Cryptozic cards they would have an understanding that other cards exist.

Jon,

Honestly there isn't a lot of crossover between gamers and non-sport collectors. Gamers are the ones that ask me "What do you DO with them?" at shows. There are some gamers that keep a mint copy of cards as a collection, but it does not seem to transfer into wanting non-sport cards.

As for stores and products, games and non-sport cards are usually two separate divisions each with their own marketing and even distribution. I know this is the case for both Upper Deck and Cryptozoic. I'm almost never 'offered' their gaming products because my sales people know I don't normally stock games. I imagine it's the same for the gaming customers too.

One problem with game stores stocking non-sport is the dollars per shelf space. There are SO many games coming out each week that most stores can't keep up with that. I imagine that they just don't want to commit resources to something they don't know well and don't know if will sell.


Just my 2 cents

Ed

quote:

Originally posted by Scifi Cards:
Jon,

Honestly there isn't a lot of crossover between gamers and non-sport collectors. Gamers are the ones that ask me "What do you DO with them?" at shows. There are some gamers that keep a mint copy of cards as a collection, but it does not seem to transfer into wanting non-sport cards.

As for stores and products, games and non-sport cards are usually two separate divisions each with their own marketing and even distribution. I know this is the case for both Upper Deck and Cryptozoic. I'm almost never 'offered' their gaming products because my sales people know I don't normally stock games. I imagine it's the same for the gaming customers too.

One problem with game stores stocking non-sport is the dollars per shelf space. There are SO many games coming out each week that most stores can't keep up with that. I imagine that they just don't want to commit resources to something they don't know well and don't know if will sell.


Just my 2 cents

Ed

Interesting. . . I can definitely see the shelf space churn with new products being an issue -- there is never a shortage of something new in gaming. . .

That makes sense -- with all the churn there isn't an interest in the retailers to look for revenue streams.

quote:

Originally posted by wolfie:

quote:

Originally posted by barobehere:

quote:

Originally posted by wolfie:

quote:

Originally posted by barobehere:

2. Current customers are dropping 3.99/4.99 comics to.... buy comics from the 80's and 90s from the budget bins. Why buy 1 issue of the current Spider-Man series when you can by 5 issue from the 90's for the same amount of money.

So where does the blame lie for this? If a Spiderman comic costs $5 now one from the 90's should be worth at least that much, the fact that it is not worth anything shows what the $5 comic will be worth 10 years from now. If there was no bargain bin the comic would hold it's price. The same goes for cards, if all the older cards which now fetch next to nothing were all destroyed the ones that were left would be worth something.

There is no one to blame just a change.

When I was buying comics as a kid they were 35 to 50cents. When I closed my shop DC has a slogan called Drawing the line at 2.99!

The individual hobbyist determines what is the value of an item.

Ah yes but that is my point, the hobbyist is not determining the price the store is by having a bargain bin. All those comics / cards should be destroyed then the ones that were left would be worth more.

The hobbyist Does determine the value. There is no magic 8ball that determines what products hit and miss with the consumers which determines if a card or comic raises or falls in value. A bargain bin is set up to offset the perceived miss by the shop owner at the time. If you think that those comics or cards should be destroyed as you say, why not ask a shop owner what they thing of your “plan”. Be ready to be laughed at.

quote:

Originally posted by wolfie:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by barobehere:
Ah yes but that is my point, the hobbyist is not determining the price the store is by having a bargain bin. All those comics / cards should be destroyed then the ones that were left would be worth more.

The hobbyist Does determine the value. There is no magic 8ball that determines what products hit and miss with the consumers which determines if a card or comic raises or falls in value. A bargain bin is set up to offset the perceived miss by the shop owner at the time./QUOTE]

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Used to read comics, not anymore, but see plenty in the bargain boxes at my LHS. As far as I can tell, these boxes are just one step above throwing them away. The store owner is happy to get any amount for any of them because they are just taking up space. They are mainly oddball titles that didn't move as new or comics that were picked up in bulk purchases or trades as simple excess fodder. Sometimes they are better known titles in lesser condition, which also means they can't be sold for very much.

The store owners know exactly what they are putting in these bargain boxes and they are no bargain. Its $1 comics because that's more than they are worth. They get handed out for free on Free Comic Book Day. They are more equivalent to base cards, if you want to try a comparison to cards. There are too many of them, whoever wanted them has them and now the rest just sit there. There is no demand, so value does not go up, but the discounting to move only brings it down.

No matter what type of collectible you are discussing, the pattern followed by collectible markets are very similar. Distribution, ease of access, outlets, reputation and history may alter depending on whether the collectible is popular, exclusive, cheap or expensive, but supply and demand principles are very much the same. In the end the future of our hobby can be predicted by looking at all the other hobbies. See how I came back on topic there.

I was reading some of the comments made 10 years ago when this thread was first started about the future of the hobby. Very interesting predictions and some prescient comments made by a couple current active members.