oh no a sensible thought out answer, are you not feeling well to day wolfster

It’s weird coming into this thread now. I have read all the posts on all the pages, and I have read similar comments in the past about the impending doom of.. well everything really.

I am coming at this from a different perspective I guess, because it’s not a hobby for me, it’s a business. While I would agree that the card industry as a whole has some major problems, I don't think it’s time to call in the morticians just yet. No there are not a lot of younger people entering the hobby, yes the market in some sectors is contracting, but at the same time other areas are expanding. (gaming cards are massive in the youth market)

Oh and for the record we make promo cards. We make lots of promo cards, because it not only helps gauge interest in different products, it also helps keep collectors aware of your product in an intensely competitive and fragmented market. From concept to release a set can take years to produce, and I as a company we need to make sure our core market (that is the collectors) are aware of the product. A lot of things have been said about how we need to make collectors face reality, or see the light. That to me is utterly wrong. Who am I or anyone else to tell folks what or how to spend there own money? The market has to shift to suit the needs of the consumer, we don't change the consumer to suit the needs of industry.

Right now Non Sport cards are going through some major changes, they have been for the last two years at least, it’s becoming a cottage industry, and a lot of small press companies are popping up, people who think it’s an easy business to get into and run (it’s really not) and who sell directly to retail with no real plans for advertising or wholesale/distribution. Good luck to them, but I think in 12-24 months a lot of them will be gone, and the market will start to balance out. I would imagine companies like Versicolour will still be around producing quality products, but a lot of the others? Not so much. Cryptozoic are about to bring a whole new group of collectors into the market, at least in the US, with big name licenses that are appealing to hitherto untouched collectors (yes the evil gaming card people). That's only going to help.

On of the real problems which has been mentioned, is market penetration, getting the cards to the people who would be interested in them, getting them on the counter in retail outlets, and finding products that appeal to both new and established collectors. It’s no easy task, and none of the small press companies can do a retail product. One of the biggest problems you will find trying to get a product into a retail marketplace is the pricing structure, chain shops want discounts of 70-80% off the RRP same as the book trade, good luck paying the licensing on a product which is popular enough to produce in large quantities and cheap enough to manufacture at a profit with those margins in mind. Now we hit a real issue, what happens if it’s a dud? Ask inkworks.

Producing quality cards costs money and lots of it, licensing sucks up time and more often than not is a washout, but assuming you do have a strong product the next hurdle is getting it into the hands of people, because many dealers would rather buy the next homogenised Clone of the Clone wars Clone set in bulk and then ***** about poor sketches than risk something new and untested. (handy hint: the oven is still hot ten seconds later, so stop touching it if you don’t want to get burned) some great exceptions to that frequent this forum, but honestly it’s a lot of work and many dealers just seem to have no interest. Oh and don't get me started on comic shops... Comic shops should be a haven for these types of products yet they are not stocked, again this is a distribution issue, specifically Diamond, seriously they are just awful to deal with, and they want 70-80% deep discounts of which they will pass on perhaps 5-10% to the shops, this means comic shops have no incentive to order cards from Diamond, and lets be honest for a moment, people who own comic shops didn't get into that field because they are known to be active and outgoing... for the MOST part they are no going to seek out new products, they have a catalogue and they order from it, if you don't like that, then the majority of comic staff will just tell you to shop someplace else. So now we don't have cards in comic shops, with some rare (often overpriced) exceptions... That's said Cryptozoic look ready to change that potently in the USA at least, as they can distribute the NS cards via the same channels as the phenomenally popular WoW gaming cards.

Tom from Breygent is working his butt off to make Dynamic forces cards respectable again and the new Vampi set will probably have a much wider audience, and SHOULD appeal to even the laziest of comic store owners.

You have a new companies popping up at a rate of nearly one a month at the moment and predominantly they are fighting for the same money, we are all competing for cash from a reasonably small pool of collectors, this is leading to higher price points and lower print runs but it’s also leading to some innovative and exciting new cards, and companies (mid sized and small at least) seem willing to really experiment with new ideas.

From my point of view, personally I would love to make a traditional box and pack product, but the sets we make (so far) will not sustain the expense, and I would rather put the money that would cost into higher quality cards, free promos, higher artist pay, and a lower price point. One day we may brake-even! The “Hobby” is not doomed but it is changing, and while I hear a lot of folks saying it needs to bring in new and younger collectors I don't see that being a problem, the problem is KEEPING them interested in cards. You have all these gateway products like Mario Kart, Dr Who, Hello Kitty, Moshi, Club Penguin, ect. and then ….nothing.

Also a ton of kids cards are often patronising, which you know they don't need or like. They want gross and gory ala Mars Attacks and horrors of war but that simply isn't happening. Ok I think this is a bit or a ramble and way to long because I have had to come back and forth to this over the last two days while you know making cards, so if it is a pain to read then you should probably have stopped already...

quote:

Originally posted by john the hat:
oh no a sensible thought out answer, are you not feeling well to day wolfster

You know what it's like John, now that i am retired i have a lot of time to consider things.

Let me chime in on recent statements in this thread.

~Cycles: The market will come back. It's down like in the 80's.~

Well, coins, stamps, and paper money have not, and will not come back. Go to a coin show and the average age of attendees is in the 50's.
I'm not saying non-sport trading won't come back, but the cyclical analogy, as applied to comic books, may not count for trading cards.

~Fresh new products will bring them back in.~

Kids are not interested one bit in The Big Bang Theory or The Walking Dead. Twilight and Justin Bieber may have been strong sellers in trading cards but the collectors of those likely won't branch out into other product.

quote:

Originally posted by Nicnac:
Well, coins, stamps, and paper money have not, and will not come back.

Perhaps this is true, but there are some differences. . . The internet has evolved along with this whole conversation over the last decade. . . that has leveled the playing field making common cards cheaper and rare cards a whole lot more expensive.

Non-sport cards have evolved along with that trend by making the 'rare' cards more valuable by adding items with intrinsic value (autographs, sketches, swatches, etc) and changing the rarity. That is something that they really can't do in stamp, coin, etc collecting.

The other huge advantage we have is that America is OBSESSED with celebrity.

Certainly the industry is changing. . .

I agree with a lot of what Jason has said, although I hope we don't lose the number of manufacturers he thinks we well. . . time will tell!

Jon

quote:

Originally posted by webjon:
I agree with a lot of what Jason has said, although I hope we don't lose the number of manufacturers he thinks we well. . . time will tell!

Jon

I do too, especially about the quality of new products and the varied subjects that are being introduced as non-sport cards for the first time. Many of these are coming by way of manufacturers that weren't even in business last year.

Right now for this May and June period, just talking about the well known companies, we have new product coming for Star Trek, Lost, Bond, Marvel properties, Tudors, and Spartacus. I don't have enough to cover all the cards I would want in these sets, I will have to ration it out.

Now factor in the stuff that we are just beginning to hear about from CZE and a slew of smaller manufacturers, this is shaping up to be a great time to be an adult non-sport card collector, wherever your interests lie. The only fly in the ointment is that word "adult" and the idea that you will be spending more on the hobby, or buying less if you can not.

So on the one hand I am very optimistic about where the hobby is going, but on the other hand we all acknowledge to some degree that not enough kids are getting involved with non-sport cards to ensure future generations of collectors. That is the problem that has to be addressed eventually, but absolutely the hobby is not dying anytime soon.

I am not sure how the hobby is dying
when I am having trouble be able to afford to keep up with what is coming up

I know it is geared for us now and not the future
but I am going to enjoy it now
while its hot

quote:

Originally posted by webjon:
America is OBSESSED with celebrity.

quote:

Originally posted by Raven:So on the one hand I am very optimistic about where the hobby is going, but on the other hand we all acknowledge to some degree that not enough kids are getting involved with non-sport cards to ensure future generations of collectors. That is the problem that has to be addressed eventually, but absolutely the hobby is not dying anytime soon.

Then perhaps what it comes down to is not worrying about what the 'stupid kids' are doing (besides messing up our lawns). They will come into the hobby in their 20's or 30's...
I guess there is no reason why anyone HAS to be in a hobby from childhood or teenage years in order to guarantee they will be in it as an adult.

There was some discussion above about how the non-sports cards should be on the counters of comic stores, and that the stores are not doing their part.

Growing up in the 80s/90s, I can recall two popular local comic stores that were around for many years. By the late 1990s, they stopped carrying non-sports completely. Why ? They would buy a box or two of Star Trek, or the latest hot sci-fi TV set. They would open it for the counter, and only a pack or two sold. This happened repeatedly. After awhile, he stopped carrying cards. They had alot of comic book customers, but apparently there was no interest in the cards.

What is a store owner to do ?

Great thread, I've enjoyed reading these posts. I don't know what the answers are except maybe distribution which I'm sure has already been mentioned. When I collected as a kid the card packets were in every sweet shop across the land. You bought a pack or two, chewed the gum and swapped your doubles for ones you needed. I reckon if cards were distributed like this all the kids would buy. The Newsagents/sweetshop/ candy store, these are daily haunts for a kid on the way to school, after school and during the lunch hour. If there are cards on the counter I'm sure they would buy. Like the Doctor Who cards in the UK that Wolfie mentioned. And there was that craze for Pokemon cards a few years ago.

The only other thing I can think of is to try and draw in more fans from the comic book world. I've collected comics all my life and of course I was aware of trading cards but until I became a sketch card artist 5 years ago I was unaware of any organised fandom for cards. I didn't know there were forums, a full colour monthly magazine, conventions and shows. Comics fandom right now is huge (even though comic sales are currently in a huge downturn). There are hundreds of thousands of fans out there. I'm sure some of them would be into card collecting if they became more aware of it.

quote:

Originally posted by Tommy C:
There was some discussion above about how the non-sports cards should be on the counters of comic stores, and that the stores are not doing their part.

Growing up in the 80s/90s, I can recall two popular local comic stores that were around for many years. By the late 1990s, they stopped carrying non-sports completely. Why ? They would buy a box or two of Star Trek, or the latest hot sci-fi TV set. They would open it for the counter, and only a pack or two sold. This happened repeatedly. After awhile, he stopped carrying cards. They had alot of comic book customers, but apparently there was no interest in the cards.

What is a store owner to do ?

Comic stores also tend to price their packs really high. For example, Thor was $3.75 a pack at my shop. At 24 packs a box, that comes out to $90 + tax. I could buy the same box online for $60 w/ free shipping. There's no way they can compete with the internet, so that's probably why its not worth it to them to carry the product.

quote:

Originally posted by Booker:

Comic stores also tend to price their packs really high. For example, Thor was $3.75 a pack at my shop. At 24 packs a box, that comes out to $90 + tax. I could buy the same box online for $60 w/ free shipping. There's no way they can compete with the internet, so that's probably why its not worth it to them to carry the product.

That's actually why I stopped buying too. . . it was $4 out the door for packs at the LCS. I got tired of buying a dozen packs for fifty bucks.

Actually that was why I stopped buying at the 2nd shop. . . I stopped buying at the first comic shop because all the packs were cherry picked. The owner claimed he didn't think cherry picking was possible so he let people cherry pick the packs.

As the originator of this thread I have read with a great deal of interest everyone's thoughts. It was really interesting to read what Jason had to say and I do believe that he has raised some very valid issues about the future of our hobby. I found it particularly thought provoking that se sees the future laying with cottage industry manufacturing and I have got to say that he could well be right.
Maybe the hobby is dead based on our retrospective viewpoint and, just maybe, there will be a different aspect of collecting that we have yet to see or can even conceive.
Long live our passion!!

No, the stores that I mentioned priced their packs reasonably.

A few years back, he tried selling the recent Marvel Masterpieces sets by Upper Deck on the counter. Again, he sold very few packs

Perhaps its the demographics of my city. Very blue collar area. Kids don't have money

quote:

Originally posted by Tommy C:
No, the stores that I mentioned priced their packs reasonably.

A few years back, he tried selling the recent Marvel Masterpieces sets by Upper Deck on the counter. Again, he sold very few packs

Perhaps its the demographics of my city. Very blue collar area. Kids don't have money

Clearly I don't know this situation at all, but I would think it would be really tough for a shop to occasionally carry cards. Most of your sales are going to be to card collectors, and if card collectors know that you don't normally carry product they aren't going to stop by.

quote:

Originally posted by webjon:

quote:

Originally posted by Tommy C:
No, the stores that I mentioned priced their packs reasonably.

A few years back, he tried selling the recent Marvel Masterpieces sets by Upper Deck on the counter. Again, he sold very few packs

Perhaps its the demographics of my city. Very blue collar area. Kids don't have money

Clearly I don't know this situation at all, but I would think it would be really tough for a shop to occasionally carry cards. Most of your sales are going to be to card collectors, and if card collectors know that you don't normally carry product they aren't going to stop by.

While I agree with you on the point that folks dont look in unlikely places for cards, I have to say it's a sorry state of affairs when a comic shop cant shift 36 packs of comic related cards at a low price as an impulse buy to people normally interested in the subject of the cards. I can see how off putting that would be to a shop owner.

It will be interesting to see how the sales of the new CBLDF cards sell, as they are being distributed in comic shops.

I think i heard once that comic shops get all their product through Diamond and if Diamond are not carrying it then the comic shop will not order it.

quote:

Originally posted by wolfie:
I think i heard once that comic shops get all their product through Diamond and if Diamond are not carrying it then the comic shop will not order it.

yes for the most part. I know Cards Ink in the UK used to deal with the the likes of Forbidden Planet once they left the market the void was not filled.

quote:

Originally posted by Sci-FiPlanet:
Cards Ink in the UK used to deal with the the likes of Forbidden Planet once they left the market the void was not filled.

So whats needed then is some enterprising chap who makes cards to get in there and fill the void.