I think this creates lot of opportunity for dealers and collectors. Ultimately the secondary Market will determine the overall value of the cards. I find myself classing myself somewhere in the middle of dealer/collector and as excited as I am about opening packs and seeing what cards I get I also get to see what they go for on eBay as I'm a firm believer in £0.99 start, everyone gets a chance then and I'm not asking unrealistic prices for cards, we may even see a drop in the overall value of Shatner/Nimoy but I think that's a good thing!
Alexei

What's ironic about this whole discussion is that we're actually having it. It wasn't all that long ago where people on this board were making fun of those in the sports card market and their premium high dollar packs.

quote:

Originally posted by X:
You're right in that buying habits will have to change, so I say suck it up or make do without these licences. If the thought of buying cards (they're meant to enjoy) from the secondary market disgusts them to the point that they call it quits, they're only cutting off the nose to spite the face.

I look forward to some more sparring!

X - No one can ever accuse you of sugar coating your opinion. And I do look forward to the sparring too , but I think we will have to call it a draw on this subject for now, or risk boring everyone else.

I would throw out just one more pretty obvious observation. I think Glen had a great point when he said that premium packs got him to purchase card titles that he would have normally passed on. That is probably the best use for the format and is what manufacturers envisioned would happen.

But the ST Heroes and Villians premium cards will be the first time that this format gets used on a major title that many collectors have been buying in series. As you commented, RA is taking a bit of heat for this, and I agree that it is unfair to make such harsh critism given RA's dedication to this hobby.

However I also think that ST collectors did not expect a premium release of such a well established product. This will be a big test of how willing collectors are to embrace change, or as you prefer to say "suck it up". And should ST premium packs go well, can Bond be far behind?

I know, you'd like that.

I think..(and this is strictly my personal opinion) that part of the reason the Star Trek Movies set is getting a premium pack release is because the last set (Quotable Star Trek Movies) didn't do as well as I know several dealers who still have a bunch of them. I could be wrong, but I wasn't surprised that it was a Trek Movie set that was getting premium-packed.

Val

quote:

Originally posted by CordeliaChase_Fan:
I think..(and this is strictly my personal opinion) that part of the reason the Star Trek Movies set is getting a premium pack release is because the last set (Quotable Star Trek Movies) didn't do as well as I know several dealers who still have a bunch of them. I could be wrong, but I wasn't surprised that it was a Trek Movie set that was getting premium-packed.

Val

Val's right. I know I'm sitting on a lot more Quotable ST Movies than I would like to be.

Plus once we've had Complete, In Motion, and Quotable, have we not pretty much mined the movies for all they are worth?

I'm pretty sure RA looked at what they had and said "20 autographs make a Premium Pack Set" rather than "Let's find 30 more people to sign cards for a future set."

And Arvin is right too. We were all pretty harsh on the sports cards and their pricey packs. It was bound to come to Non-Sports and not just in cut autograph sets.

Ed

Rittenhouse has said part of the reason for the premium release was because they didn't have a good pile of cards to offer a full release...and quite honestly, we have had alot of Trek movies. And yet, he has the cards..would we prefer he...destroyed them....bite yer tongue.
I had osme concerns about the release, less about the type of release...premium..I don't sell by the pack anyway (in a regular release), but more that another set this year might be too much. But, response thus far in my crowd...the trek loving crowd...has been positive, erasing some of my earlier concerns.

Out of curiosity, does anyone know if Jane Wiedlin was ever approached to sign a card for her ST4 appearance?

Val

quote:

Originally posted by STCardGeek:

I had osme concerns

.

You and your osme concerns.

quote:

Originally posted by wolfie:

quote:

Originally posted by STCardGeek:

I had osme concerns

.

You and your osme concerns.

:P giggle

quote:

Originally posted by Arvin Sloane:
What's ironic about this whole discussion is that we're actually having it. It wasn't all that long ago where people on this board were making fun of those in the sports card market and their premium high dollar packs.

I ask out of total ignorance, but how does the premium non sports pack compare to a sports premium pack if one is after a full set?

I just wish that instead of another movies set, the next Star Trek set would have been a 45th Anniversary tribute. Similar to what Topps did for Star Wars 30th Anniversary, where the focus isn't just on the movies but fandom (conventions) and society (technology, etc) as well.

quote:

Originally posted by STCardGeek:

quote:

Originally posted by Arvin Sloane:
What's ironic about this whole discussion is that we're actually having it. It wasn't all that long ago where people on this board were making fun of those in the sports card market and their premium high dollar packs.

I ask out of total ignorance, but how does the premium non sports pack compare to a sports premium pack if one is after a full set?

In the sports card market, I don't think premium packs are designed for set builders. Most collectors just want cards of their favorite players. It's all about the really high end (1/1 autograph patch cards,etc) cards for the premium pack sport releases.

Having owned and worked at shops that sell premium packs of sports cards, non sports have not even touched on what can be done. Want a PACK of Panini Gold Standard Basketball be prepared to shell out 175.00US. There are more that are way more expensive. No one I know in Sports card really tries to put a set of these together unless.... It is a product they love. Crown Royal Basketball 100 card base set and there was 5 or 6 base cards in a pack. I had a guy order a 20 pack case to try to put the base set together. 65 dollars a pack. He was 2 cards shy but was able to trade for them. In the end he got a lot of great autos/jerseys and was happy. For the right buyer premium packs are just a different card buying experience.

. . . $175. . . that's nothing -- The Cup is like $350 a pack, and I'm sure there are more expensive products.

I never see non-sport reaching that level because the value isn't there. People will spend $350 on the cup in hopes of pulling a signed rookie card that can sell for thousands (even tens of thousands) of dollars. Non-sport just doesn't have cards of that caliber frequent enough to support that pricing level.

Then again if you look at Horrors of War base cards are selling from $30-hundreds most base cards are running about $60, I think.

If you look at a product like Pop Century, which is $200 a pack for 8 signed cards, there are no base cards. . . The per hit prices on Trek are actually cheaper than this.

At the end of the day I think it just shows that people collect different sets in different ways, and while many people collect base sets, many people just collect hits. . . It makes sense for manufacturers to put out products for the different groups of collectors too. . .

I never buy boxes of Star Trek product, but I probably will buy premium packs of this release, and ultimately if people who wouldn't have bought this product now start buying it. . . that's probably a good thing for the license.

Jon

quote:

Originally posted by STCardGeek:
I ask out of total ignorance, but how does the premium non sports pack compare to a sports premium pack if one is after a full set?

As has already been stated, the base set in a sports premium pack is unimportant. These packs, which could go for $300 - $600 or better, were really bought by high end gamblers rather than just card collectors. Typically you had one big hit in each pack that was either a numbered unsigned rookie card, a numbered sign rookie card or the signed card of veteran superstar.

In sports cards its a whole different value system and the rookie card is king. Premium packs had the finest first cards of the first round rookies. They also had their autographs on some cards, along with current franchise stars and they came out of the gate at peak prices. Most had nowhere to go but down, but there were exceptions.

The incredibly stupid money seemed to start with basketball premium cards. Shaquille O'Neal was the first big modern rookie, but his prices were nothing compared to LeBron James' cards going for thousands. Baseball and football cards were given the same treatment, but it was all speculation buying and there was a very short window of opportunity to make a profit. Many of the rookies just fizzled out.

By comparison non-sport cards are driven by set titles and by a very few individual celebrities who do only a very limited number of signings. You could also include certain artist names, if sketch cards are the main focus. Even with the premium packs I can't see the prices of non-sport ever getting anywhere near as crazy as the sports cards, and that's not even mentioning the whole economic downturn.

And those $200 packs of Pop Century that webjon mentioned, they were being dumped for $140 and I know of the contents of at least 5 packs that got busted. Each pack had one card that would run $40 - $50, but the value of the rest didn't come up to even the bargain price of the pack. On the internet the signed cards that are numbered 5 and under have very reasonable asking prices. A combination of repeat signers and signers no one needs has made Pop Century a bad example for non-sport premium packs in my opinion.

I'm sorry, I guess I didn't read the memo that said a Premium Pack was only a Premium Pack if it sold for X amount of dollars.

. . . whoa. . . where did you see Pop Century 2011 for $140? That's a *steal* . . . I've never seen 'em anywhere near that cheap, and I've been looking.

. . . I'm not sure why the comment regarding your opinion of value is necessary. . . I've purchased plenty of $4 packs that contain 20 cents worth of base cards.

In fact I've walked out of my LCS with 10 packs for $40 many times (yeah, locally packs are $4 or more out the door) and due to bad luck or cherry picked packs the majority of those $40 purchases contained a partial set of base cards and 3-5 chase cards worth a buck each.

For me there isn't much of a worse feeling in card collecting than trying to support the local shop by paying $80 for 20 packs and ending up with $8 worth of cards. Sadly that accounts for the majority of my LCS pack purchases.

I think ti's great you still suport your LCS suchly! I regret when the tide pushed me in a different direction, it was fun going down to the shop...

quote:

Originally posted by STCardGeek:
I think ti's great you still suport your LCS suchly! I regret when the tide pushed me in a different direction, it was fun going down to the shop...

To be perfectly honest within the last 6-9 months I've stopped. . .

Too many fruitless purchases, and even when I hit an autograph or something at $4 a pack it was always a losing proposition.

That said it does sadden me, as I enjoyed the experience. . .

Jon

quote:

Originally posted by webjon:
. . . whoa. . . where did you see Pop Century 2011 for $140? That's a *steal* . . . I've never seen 'em anywhere near that cheap, and I've been looking.

. . . I'm not sure why the comment regarding your opinion of value is necessary. . . I've purchased plenty of $4 packs that contain 20 cents worth of base cards.

Actually the packs were at my LCS and they got busted right away because it was perceived to be a bargain. In the end it was not because, bad luck or whatever, the packs yielded a value must less than the price.

You are right, collectors should never expect value out of their cards, they are buying them for fun and to fill holes in their collections. They can only hope that the value is there and support products that work for them.

However people who buy $200 premium packs are often doing so mainly for the chance of the big hit. When you buy a $4 pack and get $1 worth of cards you have lost $3 and its no big deal. When you lose the same percentage on a $200 pack, who have lost $150. So getting value is quite important when you're talking about SRP in these higher ranges.

You can't compare purchasing high end premium packs of $200 and up to traditional collector card sales, the buyers don't have the same motivations. One group wants the cards in the pack, and the other group wants the pack to get cards that can be turned into more money than they paid.

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