Rittenhouse have finally put up the information details of the new Heroes and Villains set.

Heroes and Villains

I ordered a box last week from Previews, which had some information in it before it was even on Rittenhouses's website, such as how many boxes being produced. This is my first premium card box purchase, so I hope it's worth it, especially after the dissapointing Bond MISSION LOGS case I bought.

Have they sold out yet ? I could 20 boxs...

Steve Charendoff from Rittenhouse state's on the Rittenhouse site that you will get either a Shatner or Nimoy in every box, so 2 boxes should produce a master set not counting Dealer Incentive Autograph?

so thats only $1500 spent then and you still don't have a master set.

quote:

Originally posted by wolfie:
so thats only $1500 spent then and you still don't have a master set.

Now you're just letting the facts get in the way wolfie.

On the Rittenhouse boards, Steve said that they are also doing an update set to the 2009 Star Trek movie set. I wonder if originally it was going to be a big set encompassing all of the movies, and they decided against that and thought they would release these as a premium pack set.

I really wish that I could afford to pick up a pack or two of this, but I sure can't spare the money right now. Hopefully I can pick up a Christian Slater autograph for about $20 or so.

quote:

Originally posted by wolfie:
so thats only $1500 spent then and you still don't have a master set.

Let's be fair Wolfie. Nobody should pay the full retail price listed on Rittenhouse's website.

A Friendly Dealer can shave $100 off a box at least, usually more like $150.

I'm not sure buying 2 boxes is the way to go though. I'd think you will be able to buy the one missing auto (Shatner or Nimoy) and one box topper for less than a box either from a Friendly Dealer or patience on eBay. And you don't have to worry about dealing with all the extra autographs.

Ed

quote:

Originally posted by Scifi Cards:

Let's be fair Wolfie. Nobody should pay the full retail price listed on Rittenhouse's website.

Ed

Yes i admit my comment was somewhat tongue in cheek. It's just that i still find it amazing how people can casually talk about spending so much money on cards and not even have a full set to show for it.

I think the main point is that under regular cases you'd be lucky to get a William shatner 1 in every six cases now the odds Are 1 in 2. So you can make a master set buying 2 premium boxes instead of 6 regular cases. For this release it def a win win situation and can't wait to see the new hi def cards! Nice work Rittenhouse!
Alexei

quote:

Originally posted by scifitradingcards:
I think the main point is that under regular cases you'd be lucky to get a William shatner 1 in every six cases now the odds Are 1 in 2. So you can make a master set buying 2 premium boxes instead of 6 regular cases. For this release it def a win win situation and can't wait to see the new hi def cards! Nice work Rittenhouse!
Alexei

Your math assessment is quite accurate I'm sure, but you are speaking from the perspective of someone who might be able to buy 6 regular cases of a product or two boxes of a premium pack release. Or in other words, a dealer.

I think for dealers and manufacturers premium packs have many advantages, but for collectors on a budget it is not a win win situation when you have, say $30 to spend, and you can't get a pack with it.

I have to agree with wolfie here, people are getting very casual about large sums of money. There is nothing wrong with making premium cards for collectors who can afford them, I wish them well. I just don't want to be told that I'm getting a bargain when I can't touch the stuff.

Ravn - In my opinion, premium packs are a better option for the customer when trying to find that "big" auto. Using the numbers from your example of finding a Shatner 1 in 6 cases of regular packs, vs 1 in 2 boxes of premium packs. A premium pack is typically less than the cost of a box of regular packs. To find a Shatner inregular packs, you would (theoretically) have a 1 in 72 (12 box case) or a 1 in 60 (10 box case) chance at pulling a Shatner. With premium packs, you (theoretically) have a 1 in 30 chance of that same Shatner. For approximately the cost of two regular boxes, you could get possibly 3 premium packs.

glen, your math proves the point that the ratios for a big hit are better, and I'm not trying to seem like I'm against premium packs at all. They have there place, and I have gotten the Spartacus packs and the Tudor and Vampirella boxes, a slightly different format in that they both have a full set included.

But I am already a box buyer, so for premium cards I simply work my budget into an equivalent cost for premium packs if I want a particular product. I know that I will pick up at least a couple of packs of the new ST when it comes out, as long as I can find them.

What I am trying to express, maybe not in the best way, is that the argument that buying a premium box works out cheaper than buying a regular case is not really relevant to collectors that can't make bulk purchases. I have collected cards for many years and I have never bought a case of anything. I only started buying full boxes when I got into non-sports cards and not every collector can do that either. So its kind of besides the point to promote an expensive product by telling people that it's cheaper than if you would be buying something that you couldn't afford in the first place.

Perhaps I'm expressing that badly. Just be honest and say you will spend more on premium cards, but the value will be worth it. If that's the truth collectors will buy what they can.

quote:

Originally posted by Raven:

quote:

Originally posted by scifitradingcards:
I think the main point is that under regular cases you'd be lucky to get a William shatner 1 in every six cases now the odds Are 1 in 2. So you can make a master set buying 2 premium boxes instead of 6 regular cases. For this release it def a win win situation and can't wait to see the new hi def cards! Nice work Rittenhouse!
Alexei

Your math assessment is quite accurate I'm sure, but you are speaking from the perspective of someone who might be able to buy 6 regular cases of a product or two boxes of a premium pack release. Or in other words, a dealer.

I think for dealers and manufacturers premium packs have many advantages, but for collectors on a budget it is not a win win situation when you have, say $30 to spend, and you can't get a pack with it.

I have to agree with wolfie here, people are getting very casual about large sums of money. There is nothing wrong with making premium cards for collectors who can afford them, I wish them well. I just don't want to be told that I'm getting a bargain when I can't touch the stuff.

You don't have to be a dealer to appreciate that 'perspective' though.

Who's more likely to sell you a Shatner/Nimoy for $200? The dealer who spent money on 6+ regular cases trying to pull the rarest cards (and who still might not pull one) OR the dealer who is guaranteed to pull one of these cards from 1 premium box?

Even if you're not the person buying the cases/premium boxes yourself the collector still feels the effect on the secondary market. Given regular cases cost more than premium boxes, there is a higher cost of aquisition involved for the dealer trying to pull the rares. So when the dealers are trying to sell the rares from regular releases, they will naturally have to ask more money to recoup their higher costs than if they spent less money pulling the same cards from fewer premium boxes.
Premium pack products should, in theory, translate into cheaper prices for collectors as there is less risk involved for the dealer.

As for collectors on a budget... I'd have to ask since when has gambling on regular boxes/packs been the best way to spend your money? Wouldn't it be better to try and pay what you want for specific cards direct from secondary market? Sure regular box purchasing has been erradicated, and some of the 'fun' has subsequently been removed for some collectors, but that was never exactly the most sensible option for any collector (on any budget) to spend their money on.

In terms of cost to acquire, the only thing I can see that the Premium Pack format has done is increase the cost of a base set, which people have been moaning have been worth next to nothing for many years - it seems manufacturer's like RA can't do right for doing wrong. Apart from more expensive base sets, what has really changed when you are piecing a set together over the months/years?
Once everything hits the secondary market, every card will find its value, just as with any regular release so I really do not understand and cannot agree with the argument that 'Premium cards' are made for people with more money.

Raven - you are exactly correct and I understand your opinion. I was / talking about what was being discussed about going for the big hits. For that I think premium packs are great. i have bought premium packs of products I would probably never buy boxes of just to try and go for the big hit.

for the record i have bought the following:

Spartacus - 20+ packs (1 sealed box plus packs) (probably would of bought 2 boxes max on this if regular packs

LOST Relics - 5 packs (probably would not of
bought any boxes

Warehouse 13 s2 - have 2 packs on order (considering more) may of bought 1 box of this

Eureka - have 2 packs on order (definately, positively would not of bought any boxes of this)

Star Trek - will buy 3-5 packs (have only bought one ST box ever and that was an old SkyBox one that was one of the first ones with autos in them (sorry - forget which series, but i believe it was 1 auto per box set which was why i got it.)

so, at least for me, "friendly" dealers are getting money from me they would not get had all the releases been regular packs

so in total that is 35+ premium packs purchased while considering adding to my WH13 order. if all of these releases had been regular sets, that is 3 maybe 4 boxes purchased by me as opposed to 35+ premium packs.

quote:

Originally posted by Raven:
What I am trying to express, maybe not in the best way, is that the argument that buying a premium box works out cheaper than buying a regular case is not really relevant to collectors that can't make bulk purchases. [...] So its kind of besides the point to promote an expensive product by telling people that it's cheaper than if you would be buying something that you couldn't afford in the first place.

Its not about who could afford it in the first place. Its about promoting a different type of business model.
This is not a dealer (big spender) vs. collector (little spender) situation. We are all part of the food chain and the costs are passed on. It is 100% relevant that premium boxes are priced lower than regular cases. Ignoring demand for certain cards, if you can reduce production costs the price of the final product is also reduced.

Less outlay for dealers and less risk in pulling fewer rares should mean lower collector cost when dealers are pricing up their inventory.
I.e. less expenditure in the first place + more clarity in what you may pull from a product = easier money to make back, resulting in more dealers willing to try different products which ultimately keeps the industry alive.

Additionally smaller premium products for harder to sell licences should mean that there is less to collect as the 'Master Set' is smaller which means less money for the collector to spend all round. Is this not a good thing???

How is a Premium Trek product with 20 odd autos and 2-case(box)incentive as the rarest card a more expensive proposition that the likes a regular release along the lines of The Complete Next Generation? Or any other mammoth TOS release?

quote:

Originally posted by X:
You don't have to be a dealer to appreciate that 'perspective' though.

Even if you're not the person buying the cases/premium boxes yourself the collector still feels the effect on the secondary market.

Premium pack products should, in theory, translate into cheaper prices for collectors as there is less risk involved for the dealer.

As for collectors on a budget... I'd have to ask since when has gambling on regular boxes/packs been the best way to spend your money? Wouldn't it be better to try and pay what you want for specific cards direct from secondary market? Sure regular box purchasing has been erradicated, and some of the 'fun' has subsequently been removed for some collectors, but that was never exactly the most sensible option for any collector (on any budget) to spend their money on.

In terms of cost to acquire, the only thing I can see that the Premium Pack format has done is increase the cost of a base set, which people have been moaning have been worth next to nothing for many years.

Once everything hits the secondary market, every card will find its value, just as with any regular release so I really do not understand and cannot agree with the argument that 'Premium cards' are made for people with more money.

X - You have a bunch of ideas in your last 2 posts, just a few noted above. Its late here, but a couple of responses before I close down.

Dealers will try to sell Shatner and Nimoy autos from this release for just as much as all the others. It will be the auction buyers that determine the market and the price in the end. Dealers are not taking anything off for just having less risk and theories have a way of not becoming fact.

I don't believe most non-sport card collectors are gamblers anymore. The ones that have stayed with the hobby do it because its fun for them and they enjoy their collections. The idea of cards as investments, especially non-sport cards, is largely gone due to the big drop in prices on all but the most limited hits in recent years. Having said that, we all want to pull that big hit that we couldn't normally afford, like that Pierce Brosnan auto. That is not gambling, that's optimism.

What you are implying in your remarks about pack breaking is that collectors are wrong to think its fun since its not the best use of their money. They would be better served to buy off the secondary market than waste money opening packs, and premium packs will make it that much more sensible to purchase individual cards only. I do understand what you mean, but you can't tell people how to enjoy themselves, that's part of the hobby.

I absolutely agree with you that premium packs will make base sets valuable and that is what collectors said they wanted. What I don't think collectors realized was that they might not want to complete base sets that got so limited and hard to find. This falls under the catagory of "be careful what you ask for".

Finally, there is your comment that premium cards are not made for people with more money. Well of course they are, they have the word premium right in the title. If a collector has $30 he can get 7 - 10 packs of a regular release. In that purchase he will get a fair number of base cards and he might pull a hit, probably not, but he might. With a premium product he can keep his $30 and get zero cards. This will bother some collectors because they will have to change their buying habits. You can say they have other choices, but some will get disgusted and quit. This is what happened to many sports card collectors.

Perspectives do make all the differences. You are thinking about the food chain and I am thinking about the small collector that may get shut out of at least buying as many packs as he wants. As I said before I'm not against premium products, just don't call them cheaper for the average guy.

As always I enjoy reading your opinions X. Have a good night.

You know. . . folks are absolutely right that for someone with $4 to spend premium packs offer them nothing. . . but, as sad as it is, individual pack buyers are getting as scarce as the places that sell loose packs.

An incredibly small percentage of hobby product gets sold by the pack. (Retail at mass merchants is different). So in that regard, you are right. . . if you wanted to buy $30 of packs of the new Star Trek you are outta luck (*note* there are many other premium packs below then $30 price point, by the way).

But that's not to say you can't find $30 worth of cards to buy from the new Trek. . . I know, I know you want to open packs. . . so what if RA released the same product with half the contents per pack at half the price, would it be ok then?

quote:

Originally posted by Raven:
X - You have a bunch of ideas in your last 2 posts, just a few noted above. Its late here, but a couple of responses before I close down.

Dealers will try to sell Shatner and Nimoy autos from this release for just as much as all the others. It will be the auction buyers that determine the market and the price in the end. Dealers are not taking anything off for just having less risk and theories have a way of not becoming fact.

Too right there will be plenty of dealers asking astronomical amounts for these cards, just as they do everything else. But they're only asking prices.
I've got no problem with dealers trying to get as much as possible but any sensible dealer who actually wants to make a sale (rather than let the cards linger in eBay stores for years) will price their cards relative to how easy it was for them to obtain them.
When looking at your total expenditure and the total amount of stock you have to shift (if you've paid less for your premium boxes than your regular cases) its easier for the dealer to accept the slightly lower Best Offer from a buyer if the dealer wants a quicker sale. Or its easier to sell that card at auction for a little less than you'd imagined it might go for. That's what I meant by "translates into cheaper prices".

quote:

Originally posted by Raven:
I don't believe most non-sport card collectors are gamblers anymore. The ones that have stayed with the hobby do it because its fun for them and they enjoy their collections. The idea of cards as investments, especially non-sport cards, is largely gone due to the big drop in prices on all but the most limited hits in recent years. Having said that, we all want to pull that big hit that we couldn't normally afford, like that Pierce Brosnan auto. That is not gambling, that's optimism.

From this forum to others I see countless collectors who are like "I'll buy 4 cases of this to hopefully pull this" all the time. Inevitably its sour grapes when they find the odds were against them because they didn't pull exactly what they wanted, so I have to take the idea that its 'all done for fun' with a big pinch of salt. Whether people do it for fun or speculation doesn't really concern me, people can do whatever they want with their money, but you can't deny that the optimism is the hope the financial gamble will pay off in terms of value gained.

quote:

Originally posted by Raven:
What you are implying in your remarks about pack breaking is that collectors are wrong to think its fun since its not the best use of their money. They would be better served to buy off the secondary market than waste money opening packs, and premium packs will make it that much more sensible to purchase individual cards only. I do understand what you mean, but you can't tell people how to enjoy themselves, that's part of the hobby.

I think you've got the wrong end of the stick with on this one. I catergorically do NOT think it is wrong in the slightest that people think its fun to break packs because risk is involved. I have had some amazing box breaks over the years and whilst I have moved away from that and don't bother with boxes anymore, I totally understand the "I love opening boxes mentality" even if I now get more pleasure getting more for my money on the secondary market.

If you have the money to (potentially) throw away on bad boxes then that is a luxury: the fun that comes with it is also a luxury. Maybe I'm wrong here but from my observations on NSU, and especially on the RA boards, all the upset over the Premium Packs seems to stem from the lack of the ability to enjoy this luxury, because the regular box buyer (who can't afford to spend case money on a product) has been priced out of their usual method of buying cards. I just don't see this as a massive deal because whilst I totally get that some people LOVE opening boxes, surely the most important thing about any product, premium or otherwise, is the product itself? Shouldn't people derive far more enjoyment from the things they actually collect as opposed opening the packaging they came in?

Is it wrong for me to say card collectors should enjoy their CARDS more than anything else in this hobby?

And why is it necessary some collectors feel they MUST be able to bust boxes of every product?

Ok we all want a chance at pulling the good cards on the cheap, but isn't that chance worth giving up if the alternative means that fans can't have the cards at all? I find it absolutely astonishing that just because the option to buy a regular box is no longer available people are up in arms. Without being offensive it is moronic for some irrate collectors to ignore the realities of the trading card business. If RA don't think they can make a regular release work for the likes of Spartacus, Warehouse 13, LOST etc. then I think its fair collectors support them in their decision, afterall they know their business better than we do. Or RA could do regular a release for everything and go the way of Inkworks. That'd be good.

My advice to the collectors going crazy at the outrage that are Premium Packs:
1) Accept that maybe you can't open foil packets for every licence anymore - hey most people can't have everything;
2) Realign your thinking that a base set is, and should be, worth more than $5;
3) Realise that without the Premium Pack format you'd be **** out of luck when it comes to getting cards from the more obscure licences you want to collect.

quote:

Originally posted by Raven:
I absolutely agree with you that premium packs will make base sets valuable and that is what collectors said they wanted. What I don't think collectors realized was that they might not want to complete base sets that got so limited and hard to find. This falls under the catagory of "be careful what you ask for".

The irony of it all eh? What is the problem with paying more for a base set anyway? If the content is good and you enjoy the subject matter why shouldn't the base set be worth more?

quote:

Originally posted by Raven:
Finally, there is your comment that premium cards are not made for people with more money. Well of course they are, they have the word premium right in the title. If a collector has $30 he can get 7 - 10 packs of a regular release. In that purchase he will get a fair number of base cards and he might pull a hit, probably not, but he might. With a premium product he can keep his $30 and get zero cards. This will bother some collectors because they will have to change their buying habits. You can say they have other choices, but some will get disgusted and quit. This is what happened to many sports card collectors.

Perspectives do make all the differences. You are thinking about the food chain and I am thinking about the small collector that may get shut out of at least buying as many packs as he wants. As I said before I'm not against premium products, just don't call them cheaper for the average guy.

As always I enjoy reading your opinions X. Have a good night.

We're splitting hairs now: 'Premium' in the title is merely a marketing point of differentiation to clarify it is a different type of release. The product is no more or less 'premium' than the excellent standard to which everything else is produced by RA.

You can say with the $30 the collector can get "zero cards", but thats only true of sealed product. It may not be their first preference to go to the secondary market but you can get some good stuff from any licence for $30.
But if people think $30 spent on something they definately want from eBay/a dealer is more repellent than maybe coming away with $30 worth of base cards from pack purchases of regular product, I don't think that collector can scoff at how expensive anything is.

You're right in that buying habits will have to change, so I say suck it up or make do without these licences. If the thought of buying cards (they're meant to enjoy) from the secondary market disgusts them to the point that they call it quits, they're only cutting off the nose to spite the face.

I look forward to some more sparring!

quote:

Originally posted by wolfie:

quote:

Originally posted by Scifi Cards:

Let's be fair Wolfie. Nobody should pay the full retail price listed on Rittenhouse's website.

Ed

Yes i admit my comment was somewhat tongue in cheek. It's just that i still find it amazing how people can casually talk about spending so much money on cards and not even have a full set to show for it.

To misquote Spock:-
'It's card collecting Jim, but not as we know it'.

Seriously though, I cannot think of any dealers in the UK who will be selling packs of these at fairs.