[QUOTE]Originally posted by catskilleagle:
Hey Raven, I passed 1000 posts last week. What did I win?

Jess


How's that Jess.

X - Most opinions are formed by personal experience and, when voiced, are always going to be generalizations. Buyers tend to side with buyers. Sellers tend to side with sellers. The complete picture includes truths from all viewpoints.

quote:

Originally posted by catskilleagle:

I passed 1000 posts last week. What did I win?

Jess

You were awarded a nice new silver card talk coat.

quote:

Originally posted by catskilleagle:

I passed 1000 posts last week. What did I win?

Jess

Just think, it took you 17 years to get to 1000 posts. So at that pace, in another 459 years or so, you'll be at wolfie's total right now. The more disturbing thought though, is what will wolfie's total be then?

Hi Wolfie,

I did notice I went from Bronze to Silver - something like my hair color.

Jess

quote:

Originally posted by wolfie:

quote:

Originally posted by catskilleagle:

I passed 1000 posts last week. What did I win?

Jess

You were awarded a nice new silver card talk coat.

Thanks!

quote:

Originally posted by Raven:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by catskilleagle:
Hey Raven, I passed 1000 posts last week. What did I win?

Jess


How's that Jess.

X - Most opinions are formed by personal experience and, when voiced, are always going to be generalizations. Buyers tend to side with buyers. Sellers tend to side with sellers. The complete picture includes truths from all viewpoints.

Hi Logan,

I like your optimism. I think I've posted over 300 over the past year - might reach 2000 sometime in 2022. As for Wolfie, the other question is what is above a Titanium Card Talk Member? Neutronium? Beskar?

Jess

quote:

Originally posted by Logan:

quote:

Originally posted by catskilleagle:

I passed 1000 posts last week. What did I win?

Jess

Just think, it took you 17 years to get to 1000 posts. So at that pace, in another 459 years or so, you'll be at wolfie's total right now. The more disturbing thought though, is what will wolfie's total be then?

quote:

Originally posted by Raven:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by catskilleagle:
Hey Raven, I passed 1000 posts last week. What did I win?

Jess


How's that Jess.

X - Most opinions are formed by personal experience and, when voiced, are always going to be generalizations. Buyers tend to side with buyers. Sellers tend to side with sellers. The complete picture includes truths from all viewpoints.

It’s not about ‘taking sides’.

You said when you see Best Offer on an item you generally dismiss that seller and look for another. Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face.

I recently bought a Bond card I’ve been searching years for - seller had it up for BIN/Best Offer $145. After a bit of back and forth, we agreed on $100. Needless to say, very happy and from a great seller as well (Tony of Triangle Cards). But I would have missed out if I applied a self-imposed BIN/BO embargo on my purchases.

quote:

Originally posted by X:

quote:

Originally posted by Raven:

X - Most opinions are formed by personal experience and, when voiced, are always going to be generalizations. Buyers tend to side with buyers. Sellers tend to side with sellers. The complete picture includes truths from all viewpoints.

It’s not about ‘taking sides’.

You said when you see Best Offer on an item you generally dismiss that seller and look for another. Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face.

I don't think it's necessary that we agree on this, as your way of approaching things may be very different from mine. You say "cutting off your nose to spite your face". That is your view, not mine.

I haven't had good luck with Best Offers and I avoid them now. I've wasted my time making offers that are not even responded to in many cases, even when the reduction I'm looking for may only cover the shipping. I wait for the few days for the seller's answer and hear nothing. I guess I don't find those sellers that are willing to have long conversations and negotiate. It could be we are not looking for the same items.

I am also not making offers that are 30%, or 40%, or 50% lower than the BIN. I see that as a lowball insult. If you are telling me that sellers are really willing to accept such discounted offers, then they should price lower from the start. I would never ask $80 on a $150 BIN, even if it was an $80 card. It's not cutting off my nose to stay away from playing such games. Like I said, I don't haggle, I'm bad at it. I don't need a bargain, just a fair price.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Raven,

X - As a former Bond card collector, I am very curious as to which Bond card had eluded you for so long if you care to divulge its identity. If not, that is no problem!

Hi Raven,

I would agree with you to the extent that asking 30% off is kind of pushing it depending on the person, but as I've said before, it can depend on the circumstance. When I do searches for cards, some of the same ones come up across weeks to months so I might notice a card that has been up for nearly a year or longer especially if it seems overpriced to me, say a $30 card that I think is more of a $15-20 kind of thing. I did offer the seller $20 and he declined, but the next day, I got a message that said he'd take that if I still wanted it. He tried it at $30 for a year with no takers and no one offered him $25 so he gathered that the card was overpriced for the time. It might have gone for $30 all day long fifteen years ago.

The other thing is many sellers are offering items they are selling for someone else or after the owner has passed away. They don't know the stuff. They don't know other collectors of the stuff. They might have looked up prices somewhere and posted everything a bit high with the mentality, "you can always come down but you can't go up." If they have a lot of stuff to sell, they might be just trying to get a handle on the market so you're not going to insult them with a reasonable offer with "reasonable" in its broadest sense.

I do understand that some people don't like to haggle. Maybe they don't want to risk offending the seller possibly messing up a deal in the future or they just aren't used to doing it. As a rule, you don't haggle in the grocery store or in a department store (you could get a lower price if the item is damaged) but you certainly do it at a garage sale, a flea market and maybe at an antique store. In some situations haggling is expected and the seller might think you're rich and/or inexperienced if you don't ask for a better price.

I did see a BIN of $4 on a card that had the Best Offer option. At that point I'm not going to ask for a dollar off a four dollar item. The guy had a bunch of them but I was good at four bucks.

In my experience I've always gotten an answer on an offer with some "declines" but more "accepts" so I keep doing it.

I learned about haggling from my stepdad who loved going to flea markets and garage sales. Whenever I showed him something good I got for five bucks at a flea market, he'd say he would've gotten it for three.

Jess

quote:

Originally posted by Raven:

quote:

Originally posted by X:

quote:

Originally posted by Raven:

X - Most opinions are formed by personal experience and, when voiced, are always going to be generalizations. Buyers tend to side with buyers. Sellers tend to side with sellers. The complete picture includes truths from all viewpoints.

It’s not about ‘taking sides’.

You said when you see Best Offer on an item you generally dismiss that seller and look for another. Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face.

I don't think it's necessary that we agree on this, as your way of approaching things may be very different from mine. You say "cutting off your nose to spite your face". That is your view, not mine.

I haven't had good luck with Best Offers and I avoid them now. I've wasted my time making offers that are not even responded to in many cases, even when the reduction I'm looking for may only cover the shipping. I wait for the few days for the seller's answer and hear nothing. I guess I don't find those sellers that are willing to have long conversations and negotiate. It could be we are not looking for the same items.

I am also not making offers that are 30%, or 40%, or 50% lower than the BIN. I see that as a lowball insult. If you are telling me that sellers are really willing to accept such discounted offers, then they should price lower from the start. I would never ask $80 on a $150 BIN, even if it was an $80 card. It's not cutting off my nose to stay away from playing such games. Like I said, I don't haggle, I'm bad at it. I don't need a bargain, just a fair price.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: catskilleagle,

quote:

Originally posted by catskilleagle:
I learned about haggling from my stepdad who loved going to flea markets and garage sales. Whenever I showed him something good I got for five bucks at a flea market, he'd say he would've gotten it for three.

Jess

Ha! Love it. I do think it’s a mentality thing.

My wife and I went to a jewellers the other day to look at something. Not terribly expensive that it would be a ‘big’ sale the seller would heavily discount in order close, but not so inexpensive that it would be rude to negotiate on price. My wife asked if there was any movement on price? Lady helping said ‘no’ outright. I returned a couple hours later on my own, I said if I could get 8% off (working towards a round number) it was a done deal. She gave me 10%.

As Jess has said, in some environments it is more accepted than others and there are always lots of variables. Did the seller respond to me more? Did the return visit make us look less like time-wasters? Did the length on time between visits (rather than say 15 minutes) make us look keen but not desperate to buy? Were they having a slow day? Was the fact they’d had the piece for a year motivate them to shift it?

The item, the timing and the approach is everything.

Funnily enough that same day, on eBay I put in a £20 best offer on a card up at £27 from a set that came out nearly 10 years ago. The seller has come back at £25. Not terribly exciting.
I could counter, or I might go with another seller that has a different variation of the same for BIN £20.
Regardless, if I except the counter I have still saved a couple quid and I don’t think anyone has been insulted by the experience.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: X,

quote:

Originally posted by Raven:

quote:

Originally posted by X:

quote:

Originally posted by Raven:

X - Most opinions are formed by personal experience and, when voiced, are always going to be generalizations. Buyers tend to side with buyers. Sellers tend to side with sellers. The complete picture includes truths from all viewpoints.

It’s not about ‘taking sides’.

You said when you see Best Offer on an item you generally dismiss that seller and look for another. Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face.

I don't think it's necessary that we agree on this, as your way of approaching things may be very different from mine. You say "cutting off your nose to spite your face". That is your view, not mine.

I haven't had good luck with Best Offers and I avoid them now. I've wasted my time making offers that are not even responded to in many cases, even when the reduction I'm looking for may only cover the shipping. I wait for the few days for the seller's answer and hear nothing. I guess I don't find those sellers that are willing to have long conversations and negotiate. It could be we are not looking for the same items.

I am also not making offers that are 30%, or 40%, or 50% lower than the BIN. I see that as a lowball insult. If you are telling me that sellers are really willing to accept such discounted offers, then they should price lower from the start. I would never ask $80 on a $150 BIN, even if it was an $80 card. It's not cutting off my nose to stay away from playing such games. Like I said, I don't haggle, I'm bad at it. I don't need a bargain, just a fair price.

You may not like the expression, but you are cutting yourself off to purchasing options and that is a fact.

I’ve also had plenty of sellers ignore reasonable offers. I’ve ignored reasonable offers too because I’ve been busy in my personal life and didn’t even realise an offer had been made (that I would have accepted outright!). As as been discussed, there are so many variables at any moment in time and every buyer and seller is different. You’re tarring every potential best offer with the same brush.

In the Bond card example I gave, as I recall, I think I went it at $75 (full well expecting to be haggled up). It went to auto decline, a couple more offers went to auto decline then the seller went a bit above $100 and I got it down to $100. It’s your opinion it should have just been listed at $100 but maybe someone else would have come in before me at $125? It’s not a ‘game’ as you keep implying negatively, the seller can be as flexible as they want as and when they choose.

It was listed over Christmas and maybe there would have been higher offers at others times of the year? Maybe it helped I jumped on it almost as soon at it was listed?

You say a 30%-50% offer is “lowball” or an “insult”. I see it as a starting point. A buyer wants to buy low and a seller wants to sell high. Reasonable people meet somewhere close to the middle, unless the price was insane to begin with.

And again, this is eBay! I’ve seen the card I bought sell for ranges all over the place. When the seller accepted my offer there were a couple more listed in the $180 BIN/Best Offer range but the last one sold went a couple weeks before for about $80 at auction. So what’s it worth? Maybe the seller preferred a set amount of money he was getting rather than an auction?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: X,

quote:

Originally posted by cardaddict:
X - As a former Bond card collector, I am very curious as to which Bond card had eluded you for so long if you care to divulge its identity. If not, that is no problem!

Sure, it was the first George Lazenby full bleed auto that was the 2-case incentive from The Complete Bond (2007). It was the last of the Bonds I needed to go with my RA full-bleed autos of Moore, Brosnan and Craig.

Passed over it at release for £25 and been watching it creep up ever since. Not the rarest card but Lazenby and OHMSS have gotten more appreciation over the last 10 years and collectors are prepared to pay more for him.
I’ve been waiting for an example I thought was priced reasonably and that did not display edge chipping to the dark background, which seems fairly common on this one. Plus I look for nice signature placement and no fading to the ink. The one I found finally ticked all my boxes and from one of the nicest US dealers in the business.

Best offer, that's a laugh.

The other day i saw something for £5 or best offer so i offered £3.50. The seller declined, shut down the auction and relisted it at £10 or best offer.

quote:

Originally posted by X:

quote:

Originally posted by cardaddict:
X - As a former Bond card collector, I am very curious as to which Bond card had eluded you for so long if you care to divulge its identity. If not, that is no problem!

Sure, it was the first George Lazenby full bleed auto that was the 2-case incentive from The Complete Bond (2007). It was the last of the Bonds I needed to go with my RA full-bleed autos of Moore, Brosnan and Craig.

Passed over it at release for £25 and been watching it creep up ever since. Not the rarest card but Lazenby and OHMSS have gotten more appreciation over the last 10 years and collectors are prepared to pay more for him.
I’ve been waiting for an example I thought was priced reasonably and that did not display edge chipping to the dark background, which seems fairly common on this one. Plus I look for nice signature placement and no fading to the ink. The one I found finally ticked all my boxes and from one of the nicest US dealers in the business.

Aha! Thanks. That is my favorite Bond set. The only card I am missing from it is the A54 Maud Adams Octopussy autograph.

Since this thread has turned into the "Best Offer" thread, I will throw my 2 cents into the cap. If you post of ebay casually, "Best Offer" is a default one has turn off instead of turn on. I have submitted best offers and the buyer says "I forgot to turn that off or I did not realize that the option was on my auction." I have submitted offers that were accepted, submitted offers that have been rejected, ignored, or countered above listing price. All of which is fine. You learn about the seller this way. One ebay seller said he appreciates that I return to him and sometimes counters with an offer below what I had asked...of course he is one of my favorite saved sellers.
None of it is personal and I don't take it that way. Business is business. Ebay is Business.

quote:

Originally posted by X:
You may not like the expression, but you are cutting yourself off to purchasing options and that is a fact.

You're tarring every potential best offer with the same brush.

You say a 30%-50% offer is “lowball” or an “insult”. I see it as a starting point. A buyer wants to buy low and a seller wants to sell high. Reasonable people meet somewhere close to the middle, unless the price was insane to begin with.

Good conversation X. I have tried to explain my reasoning, I don't expect you to agree. It is an option that I don't use. If the BIN is fair I take it straight away. I'm not tarring every seller using Best Offers, I'm just trying to tell you that I respect an honest price and don't try to chew people down.

But what you should realize is that you, if you are in the seller position, do risk losing customers by putting up BINs that are a "starting point" sometimes, if the rent is due or the wind is blowing in the right direction. If I see a BIN that is overpriced, I'm not going to waste my time telling the seller its overpriced and I want 40% off on the BO. And maybe he answers, if he knows it, or maybe he doesn't because the rent isn't due. At flea markets and shows I will try to negotiate "small" deductions, not radical discounts. Over the internet I don't. I recently bought a group of autograph cards from a trusted seller. She gave me her prices. I thought it was a good deal. I didn't ask for a dollar off and I will buy from her again because she is an honest seller. Kind of simple, no?

One last story. I knew a couple who were house hunting and found the perfect home. They were asked to submit their best bid. They did and were beaten by another bid. They were sick because they expected to negotiate their bid and they lost the house at a price that they would have paid above. So I just told the husband "Well, I guess the owner didn't know you were in a negotiation".

I think the same can be applied on a smaller scale here. Everyone has to know that they are negotiating and want to do it and want to respond to offers. Not everyone does and some buyers and sellers don't want to do business like that.

Ultimately there are a bunch of different types of sellers and a bunch of different types of buyers.

It used to REALLY annoy me when I'd go to a show and a dealer wouldn't have prices marked on their cards. Then I read some posts online where several people adamantly insisted they would never pay the price marked on items at a convention expecting to always be able to negotiate.

Of course there are other buyers who won't negotiate at all. . .

Now it makes sense to me why lots of dealers don't have prices marked on cards at a convention. If the items are priced well they are going to lose all the sales to people who insist on negotiating, if the items are priced with negotiating in mind they are going to lose all the sales to people who refuse to negotiate.

When you are at a convention you can start a conversation with the dealer to find the prices and the dealer can kind of figure out if you are just looking for the sticker price or are looking to try to haggle from a starting point. . .

The same types of buyers and sellers exist online, unfortunately they typically don't get to interact directly to determine what type of buyer or seller is on the other side of the transaction.

I've personally seen lots of responses from sellers with best offers -- from relisting at a higher price, to not responding at all, etc, etc. . . I've had offers I was 100% confident would be accepted get declined, and I've had offers I was 100% confident would be declined get accepted.

Lately I'd say at least 50% of my purchases are the result of offers.

I have a method I use to try to determine how much a seller may be willing to accept on a best offer. I go to the specific seller's completed listings, boot up several "Best Offer" items that show a sold price similar to the item I'm interested in buying from them. Then I go to watchcount, plug the item numbers for the sold items in, and see what the actual prices were that the seller accepted. That will give me some idea of how low the seller was willing to take. But over the years I've learned that you can't make any kind of blanket judgments for sellers who take best offers. Some aren't willing to come off the original price much at all. I recently offered $210 on a $240 vintage boxing card and was automatically declined. Those sellers are very frustrating to me. Why have a best offer at all if you're not willing to come down any more than 10% off the original asking price? It's a waste of time to the prospective buyer and only succeeds in ticking them off. If you're the seller in those cases, set the price you want, take away the best offer and be done with it. No games. But on the other hand I've seen plenty of sellers who come WAY down off their original asking price - like 50%-75% off. There's been many times where I didn't put an offer in thinking there's no way it would be accepted only to see the item sold for a price lower than what I would've offered. So yeah, you can't judge all "Best Offer" sellers the same. But looking at their previous sales through watchount can help a lot in determining what they will or won't accept.

Best Offers are hit and miss ,I only make an offer of %70 om items only because i am an international buyer with a high exchange rate so if i offer a low rate it gets very expensive for me but this being said some sellers do not reply or they get a higher offer .
I have had lots that i have made offers on and no reply then days after the lot has been relisted at my offer then i put in another offer for %70 and the offer has been accepted so i have got the lot at a cheaper price than originally listed .
Another seller who says best offer must know what my collecting interests are because when i make an offer he comes back with only $2 to 3 less but when the item is not within my collecting interests he will accept an offer of %70 unusual
I think that the lowest offer anyone should make is %70 that gives you room to manouver with a counter offer (this is my opinion only ) My %70 offer is comprised of my exchange rate approx %50 on $US Shipping US $10 plus NZ tax %15 on total converted ammount so in NZ $ i normally pay more in NZ $ than the sellers US $ asking price .
We can all give reasons but in the end a Dollar is a Dollar in any ones language.
However if a best offer is offered it is up to the seller to accept or counter as countering will get both of you the result you want dont feel bad about low ball offers that can be worked out between both parties.