There was a thread on here about card trimming that I was looking for, but can't find. It isn't very old -- anyone know what happened? Am I just missing it?

I can't recall a thread devoted to trimming. There's not a whole lot to say about it beyond trimming destroys the card value and if you bought one without knowing it you've been robbed.

It has been mentioned just in passing under other subjects. I know I talked about it briefly in threads in this section for Cutting Up Historical Documents and another one on creating a Standardized Grading System. Maybe that's what you're thinking of or maybe there is one about card repair or restoration I don't remember. Trimming can come up in those subjects too, although it is never allowed, which is why its something to watch out for.

Hmm. . . maybe I am thinking about a thread on another forum. They were talking about Look N See cards that were trimmed and regraded. . . I thought it was cross posted on Card Talk, but maybe not.

quote:

Originally posted by webjon:
Hmm. . . maybe I am thinking about a thread on another forum. They were talking about Look N See cards that were trimmed and regraded. . . I thought it was cross posted on Card Talk, but maybe not.

Can't recall reading that, would be interested in the story though. Unless grading services have changed their rules I thought a trimmed card would be returned as ungradeable with the explanation. It they missed trimmed cards that would be very bad.

It was in a facebook group. I saw it yesterday but did not have time to look at it. It was on a sports card link to a podcast where someone who is a trimmer has sent 527 cards to get graded and the podcasters were trying to warn people about it.

There is a thread on blowout about it.

The jist of the situation is that there are people who are buying graded cards, trimming them, resubmitting them for a higher grade and selling them for way more money.

I don't know much about this except what I read.

Here is one of the many images posted on Blowout.

Wow, that's awful and, if it's true, PSA is in big trouble.

From the scans, and again only going by if accurate, that was a moderately off centered 1952 vintage card. Off centering, or off cut as it may be called, was a very common problem in the printing process of vintage cards. The borders are not even, either from side to side, or top to bottom, sometimes both. Even though certain products are known for off centered cards, grading services still deduct points for it, regardless if it is systemic in that issue. That's why the grading of some card sets may have 6 or 7 as an average score and there is no such thing as a 9 or 10.

The only real reason to get a valuable card graded, especially if it's an old one, is to confirm that it isn't counterfeit and has not been trimmed or repaired. It must be in its original condition. By trimming borders to match you are making the card smaller.

It may be marginal, but it's still very easy to pick up with a professional or even amateur measurement. In this case, they took a vintage 7, which might be a very good grade for this issue, and made it into a possibly exceptional 9. That would mean a huge jump in price when, by rights, the card has really been destroyed from it's original condition and should be nullified. This is the reason why collectors get cards graded, to ensure that this hasn't been done.

Again if true, says a lot about grading doesn't it?

There are a bunch of threads about card trimming all the sudden on Blowout -- including serial numbered cards so there is no doubt those cards were trimmed. . .

This thread is quite disconcerting. For me the issue is not as much about the sad fact that people trim cards, cheaters exist everywhere in the world, thus the reason for the motto "caveat emptor".
But rather, it's for the remote possibility that companies whose reputation and very existence depend on their integrity in accurately measuring and grading trading cards, may either be incompetent in doing so or outright defrauding the public.
certainly, if clear and convincing evidence of a grading company's business practices reveals that they have engaged in a pattern of gross negligence or deceit, this could engender a substantial class action lawsuit.
for every collector's sake that has ever had a card graded, I hope these are false rumors that will be quickly quelled and relegated to the false news category!

quote:

Originally posted by promoking:
This thread is quite disconcerting. For me the issue is not as much about the sad fact that people trim cards, cheaters exist everywhere in the world, thus the reason for the motto "caveat emptor".
But rather, it's for the remote possibility that companies whose reputation and very existence depend on their integrity in accurately measuring and grading trading cards, may either be incompetent in doing so or outright defrauding the public.
certainly, if clear and convincing evidence of a grading company's business practices reveals that they have engaged in a pattern of gross negligence or deceit, this could engender a substantial class action lawsuit.
for every collector's sake that has ever had a card graded, I hope these are false rumors that will be quickly quelled and relegated to the false news category!

I very much doubt this is false news. The blowout forums thread looks very well researched with compelling evidence .

After looking through the threads and research on Blowout I have no doubt at all this is happening. As Triple-Frog says this is well researched and very compelling.

If you search "card trimming" there seems to be many links coming up on a bunch of articles or posts reporting problems with graded cards, both recent and going back several years. Most of it talks about sports cards or vintage cards that may be both sports and non-sport.

I think what has happened here is that the stories finally got noticed by the mainstream because someone put out a bunch of them for sale and it caught the eye of someone else who used a forum to get the word out. Now it's piling on with people naming particular sellers and sites. This is how MeToo got started , so yeah there seems to be a problem. A lot of it is specifically on trimmed cards and a lot of that seems to involve cards that are not of the standard trading card size.

As to whether or not anything is formally proven or anybody is officially accused, that is a whole a different matter as we all know from the abundance of fake autographs that plague the hobby. The standard of legal proof is very difficult to meet because in the end incompetence and poor judgment is always the fallback to avoid prosecution.

That is not the case in the court of public opinion. Graded cards are big in the sports card market. They are big in the vintage card market. Much less so for non-sports cards, but still desired by some collectors. If this story picks up traction with more examples, graded card collectors will start looking at their slabs with suspicion for all sorts of reasons and that will be the end of that.

Promoking, as you and I are both attorneys, how about we start a class action lawsuit together ?

Maybe then we can both retire.

This Thread about Card Trimming appeared on blowout about a week ago.
The thread was about a certain individual or web Site was selling a certain sets cards as graded.
They were buying them cheap and regrading them then putting them back up for auction at vastly inflated prices and getting them
The person who started the thread had really gone into these cards and could prove that certain cards had been trimmed or altered
And was trying to alert the public and auction houses of this,also trying to get the grading companies to take a more proactive attitude towards their grading system, wich in this case is actually pathetic.
There was even one member hinting that the person actually had an accomplice within the grading company
It seems to be a quiet involved process and really needs to be investigater by polise or something as if it is right and seems to have been prooved there needs to be a fraud investigation started in this matter.
If we cannot trust the grading companies to give us authentic grading, the whole grading system should be closed down, until they can be trusted .
If this is true and not addressed all graded cards can be classed as fake and thusly be valuless
And we should go back to just having raw cards

I don't get that people are actually trimming stuff with high end industrial and laser trimmers that had horrible trimming to begin with. Donruss was one of the worst offenders. If I saw any Donruss with a clean trim line i'd assume it was tampered with. But even the card pictured above is only identifiable by its horrible trim line.

If you're gonna fake it, at least do it on older industrial equipment or a grade school art class papercutter.

This is sad for the hobby. PSA posted a weak response, they cater to dealers and collectors who submit large amounts of cards, no different than CGC with comics, it’s all about the money. PSA graded the Gretzky Wagner knowing it was trimmed, how are they to be trusted at all?

PWCC, which auctioned many of the cards currently in question, has made a statement and has barred a certain person from buying and selling through them. They said they are working with PSA and law enforcement.

I haven't seen any acknowledgement from PSA yet, but there is an investigation, so no doubt something happened and it's now a matter of identifying how many buyers may have bought doctored, graded cards.

PWCC has to show that they were not aware of the scheme as the transactions occurred, but PSA has the harder task of explaining why they just didn't spot the trimming in the first place. After all that's one of the primary reasons to get a card graded. It's their whole purpose for being in business.

Such a strange hobby. . .

I've never understood why a slight change in a grade from a grading company can have a huge impact on price, especially when the difference in the quality may not be noticeable . . . Of course I understand rarity, and authenticity. . . But the fact that I am now reading about new to me 'labels' like "Black Label" . . . it just all seems so gimmicky. Now these trimmers are sort of exposing that. . .

Also, I hate to say this for fear of being flogged, but it is also odd to me that this hobby seems to tolerate no form of restoration at all, which is just odd to me. Trimming may be a bad example if you can tell a card was trimmed compared to other cards in the set, but I see they are now going after people who have cleaned spots off cards, pressed creases out of cards, etc. . .

Of course maybe that is the difference between being a collector and not an investor. . . maybe the investors are hanging their hats on the extremely rare grades and this disrupts that. . .

I'm glad I'm not worried about these sorts of things. . .

[QUOTE]Originally posted by webjon:
Such a strange hobby. . .

I've never understood why a slight change in a grade from a grading company can have a huge impact on price, especially when the difference in the quality may not be noticeable . . . Of course I understand rarity, and authenticity. . . Also, I hate to say this for fear of being flogged, but it is also odd to me that this hobby seems to tolerate no form of restoration at all, which is just odd to me. Trimming may be a bad example if you can tell a card was trimmed compared to other cards in the set, but I see they are now going after people who have cleaned spots off cards, pressed creases out of cards, etc. . .


Webjon,
I am a stamp as well as a card collector and there are also 2 types of stamp collectors with nuances in between. Those who collect for the pure joy of holding a little piece of paper art in their hands regardless of its condition, whether the stamp is cancelled or mint or if it is even missing perforations.

On the other hand, there are collectors and investors that will ONLY look for and purchase stamps that are well centered with original gum and Mint Never Hinged, sometimes spending hundreds of thousands of dollars for such impeccable examples.
Stamp collecting is a hobby that goes back to 1840 and since that time, there have been countless reported cases of regummed backs; repaired tears; chemically treated stamps to remove stains to make them appear fresher and other innumerable examples of masterfully reproduced fakes of rare stamps to trick people out their money. The stamp hobby also has its professional grading societies and individual experts in various fields. Throughout the years, there have also been scandals, investigations and prosecutions in that venerable hobby.

The Scott Catalog which is basically the bible on stamp values explains in its preamble, without getting into too much detail,that its price quotes are for stamps that are in excellent condition. It also warns in descriptions if fakes of a particular stamp exist.

Stamp collecting is substantially older as a hobby, I believe, than sports and non-sports cards collecting. Thus, The card collecting hobby seems to be going through its own growing pains if the trimming allegation against some grading companies avers to be true.

On a personal note, you bet condition is important! As a buyer of cards I want to know what I am paying for. I may not personally care whether a card is graded, perhaps because I do not buy high end cards that often but if I were one of those buyers I would certainly want to rely on the expertise of the people in the know to accurately grade cards based upon the "standards used in the industry".

On a similar note but with less at stake for the average collector, assume you are buying a card on Ebay which the seller is describing as Near Mint and shows a couple of scans of that card which appear to meet the criterion. However, what that seller doesn't say is that there are scratches on the surface of the card which he has hidden from view with the lighting selection from the scanner and perhaps there exists a small dog ear which is not visible from the scan due to the weight of the lid pressing on the card during the scanning process.

I would bet that you would not be happy with the condition of that card after you received it!
You would have wanted to be aware of those defects before you made the decision to spend your hard earned money. Well, the argument for collectors/investors of graded cards is similar except that the monetary loss could be substantial. They too though have the right to know what they are buying except that they require the assistance of experts to assist them in their purchase decisions.


By the way, people rely on experts every day as they have the right to do, whether it's through a consultation with a physician; a lawyer an accountant a financial adviser or a myriad of other professionals or para professionals who guide them in areas they may not be so familiar with but whose opinions will have an impact on their health, pocketbook or even their freedom.

Certainly, if it is proven that one of those people has been hurt either intentionally or negligently in a pecuniary or physical way, they have a right of redress against those rendering the opinions. The extent of the claims that exist will be dependent on how aggrieved the individual is by the mistake or volitional acts.

So, the real question in the trimming issue discussed in this thread is how deep does the rabbit hole go? If there is a hare involved at all.
If it turns out that malfeasance occurred, its dark cloud will reverberate throughout the hobby and the impact will percolate into the mindset of every collector of cards, graded or not.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: promoking,