quote:

Originally posted by webjon:
COMC seems the most insulated of these three, but I personally have the most exposure through COMC -- should I get all my COMC and ePack cards shipped out of there?

The COMC model was started with the basic idea that collectors are trusting that the cards they bank will be there when they want them. I don't think that's changed yet. There is always the possibility that any company can have business problems down the line, so that was always there, but it doesn't mean a preemptive "run on the bank" is going to happen or should happen when no blame has even been assigned to them or anyone yet.

If you have something physical there that you can't afford to lose, I would say you should have it shipped out. But I would say that regardless. Otherwise I would just watch the situation if it were me and talk to other customers I knew to keep updated. Your level of comfort is the main thing of course.

Well to update the situation at COMC, there is a new statement in their blog today which says that COMC will fully refund on any item that is discovered to have been altered and is cancelling this month's Premiere Event to concentrate on the investigation. You should find the complete blog on COMC.com.

So I'm not exactly sure how they intend to make good on all refunds requested, when there seems to be a lot of cards now reported and they have already closed down accounts on at least a couple of their biggest sellers who have been implicated. They could get hit with a lot of buy backs and then what exactly are they going to do with all those items confirmed to be altered? They can't re-sell them without full disclosure and the value of a trimmed or altered card drops to a fraction of the price, if anyone wants it at all. Even then they would have to make sure that identified cards, if not destroyed, can't get circulated back as unaltered and have the whole thing start over.

But I guess those are the details they are working out and why they are not going ahead with a planned event. COMC is trying to form a plan and the fallout could only be a temporary financial hit, as long as they can retain the good faith of their customers and the official investigation doesn't find anything major against them.

Interesting, thanks for posting.

It is good they are addressing the issue.

There are posts on blowout to threads on another site from more than a decade ago calling out trimmed PSA cards. This has been going on a long time, I can't imagine how many cards have been altered.

It will be interesting to see how the hobby reacts. . .

If I could get an awesome looking trimmed Mars Attacks set for pennies on the dollar I'd jump at the chance.

They could do what card companies do when before they send back redemption cards with the card redeemed for. They hole-punched them and a trimmed card could be hole-punched maybe more than once and/or stamped them on the back "trimmed." They could trim the card even more (e.g. take off both side borders) to leave no doubt that it was trimmed.

Some companies have given out samples of chase cards (or passed them around within the company) but cut off one corner to distinguish it from an officially-released card.

There is a promo sample of a card from Marvel Premium QFX (Fleer/Skybox, 1997) that has the word "sample" die-cut out of the card. You could die-cut the word "trimmed" out of the card.

If there are customers for trimmed cards marked as such, maybe they could try selling them, but yeah, it might be easier just to burn them all than to take steps to mark them.

Jess

quote:

Originally posted by Raven:
They could get hit with a lot of buy backs and then what exactly are they going to do with all those items confirmed to be altered? They can't re-sell them without full disclosure and the value of a trimmed or altered card drops to a fraction of the price, if anyone wants it at all. Even then they would have to make sure that identified cards, if not destroyed, can't get circulated back as unaltered and have the whole thing start over.

But I guess those are the details they are working out and why they are not going ahead with a planned event. COMC is trying to form a plan and the fallout could only be a temporary financial hit, as long as they can retain the good faith of their customers and the official investigation doesn't find anything major against them.

quote:

Originally posted by catskilleagle:
They hole-punched them and a trimmed card could be hole-punched maybe more than once and/or stamped them on the back "trimmed." They could trim the card even more (e.g. take off both side borders) to leave no doubt that it was trimmed.

Jess

[/QUOTE]

The really horrible part about any solution for these trimmed or altered cards that were fraudulently submitted to graders and made it past to be sold in higher grades, is that some of these cards are truly rare. They would have been fine in their original, slightly imperfect condition.

A graded 7, especially a graded 7 on an older card, is very acceptable, even if it might have a rough edge or be a bit off-centered on the sides or top to bottom. Now because someone decided to "improve" it and managed to squeeze a graded 8 or 8.5 out of it and pocket the profit, the whole card has to be earmarked or destroyed? As someone who loves cards, how does that seem fair? Not even talking about the financial loss on those cards, just think how if effects the untainted supply numbers when as many tainted cards as possible are identified and removed from circulation in some manner. Yet what other choice is there once you know you've been had.

It's an almost impossible situation to be in without starting over from scratch. These prohibited practices have been going on for years and years, but it was only with the assistance of recent scanning and comparing techniques that collectors have come up with the evidence to prove it. But what exactly happens next is still going to hinge on the results of the official investigation and that could still be a long time off.

Destroying trimmed cards would be horrible. As I said above -- I'd love a set of original Mars Attacks cards trimmed or not.

Perhaps the solution will be similar to other hobbies like comics and coins where cards will be designated 'trimmed', 'cleaned', 'restored', etc.

The big downside to that, in my opinion, is that is leans on grading companies -- the companies that caused this issue to begin with -- to continue to be involved. . .

I was thinking just that: a lot of 7's were ruined to look like 8's. I don't know the market for 1960's cards that are 6's, 7's, and 8's (the price jumps in between) but imagine that's the trim zone. Someone might not risk messing up an 8 to get to 9 but that has probably happened too. There's always a guy with little or no experience who thinks he's an expert.

Right, a 7 is Near Mint which is pretty much the level the average modern non-sport collector would like to be at with a card. Sports card people are holding out for Gem Mint. If we need magnification to see the ding, who cares. With pre-70's cards a lot of collectors would just like to complete the set and would be content with dings and creases. It's tough enough waiting to get a shot at a short-print or some variation. Some might not even keep an eye open for upgrades. They're moving on to the next set.

Jess

quote:

Originally posted by Raven:

quote:

Originally posted by catskilleagle:
They hole-punched them and a trimmed card could be hole-punched maybe more than once and/or stamped them on the back "trimmed." They could trim the card even more (e.g. take off both side borders) to leave no doubt that it was trimmed.

Jess

The really horrible part about any solution for these trimmed or altered cards that were fraudulently submitted to graders and made it past to be sold in higher grades, is that some of these cards are truly rare. They would have been fine in their original, slightly imperfect condition.

A graded 7, especially a graded 7 on an older card, is very acceptable, even if it might have a rough edge or be a bit off-centered on the sides or top to bottom. Now because someone decided to "improve" it and managed to squeeze a graded 8 or 8.5 out of it and pocket the profit, the whole card has to be earmarked or destroyed? As someone who loves cards, how does that seem fair? Not even talking about the financial loss on those cards, just think how if effects the untainted supply numbers when as many tainted cards as possible are identified and removed from circulation in some manner. Yet what other choice is there once you know you've been had.

It's an almost impossible situation to be in without starting over from scratch. These prohibited practices have been going on for years and years, but it was only with the assistance of recent scanning and comparing techniques that collectors have come up with the evidence to prove it. But what exactly happens next is still going to hinge on the results of the official investigation and that could still be a long time off.[/QUOTE]

Yes, it would be sad to hear that the trimmed cards are going to be destroyed but what do you do to keep them from being recirculated as unaltered, high-grade cards? You can indelibly mark or cut them as I suggested or you can experiment with forms of encasement that guarantee difficulty in clean extraction of the inclusion - something like those insects in lucite that you see at flea markets.

Jess

quote:

Originally posted by webjon:
Destroying trimmed cards would be horrible. As I said above -- I'd love a set of original Mars Attacks cards trimmed or not.

Perhaps the solution will be similar to other hobbies like comics and coins where cards will be designated 'trimmed', 'cleaned', 'restored', etc.

The big downside to that, in my opinion, is that is leans on grading companies -- the companies that caused this issue to begin with -- to continue to be involved. . .

quote:

Originally posted by catskilleagle:
Yes, it would be sad to hear that the trimmed cards are going to be destroyed but what do you do to keep them from being recirculated as unaltered, high-grade cards?

What do I want to do to the cards? -- nothing. And that's what I suspect will happen.

What should happen -- in my opnion -- the grading companies should be held accountable for not doing the job they were paid to do -- sometimes egregiously. If the grading companies were adept at denoting cards that have been altered the incentive to alter cards would largely disappear.

In the future people collecting high grade cards are going to have to educate themselves and make informed buying decisions -- just like they do in other hobbies with items that are cleaned, altered, restored, etc.

The problem with card grading going forward - particularly with vintage - is how do they tell if a card was miscut "naturally" or by some crook. I remember reading about a guy who opened a pack of 1955 Bowman baseball (the set that looked like a brown color TV) and every card in the pack was cut differently. Some were right on, some were too big, and some were cut far too short. And this was fresh out of a pack. The card-cutting process back then was far from precise. So are card grading companies able to differentiate between a card that was miscut right from the factory to one that was just trimmed last week by some joker in his basement. That's the question I'd like to know the answer to. Are the grading companies even able to do it with some sense of certainty. If they can't, then grading is done IMO.

The other thing that I think should happen -- that should have happened a long time ago -- manufacturers should scan all of the hits.

That would help eliminate fake autographs, altered sketch cards, altered relic/patch cards and trimming.

And -- perhaps all hits should be serial numbered.

quote:

Originally posted by Logan:
Are the grading companies even able to do it with some sense of certainty. If they can't, then grading is done IMO.

Whatever happens, for that segment of the hobby that has become obsessed with card grading for all the wrong reasons, I don't believe grading with ever be done. It will get re-set and just start all over again.

If card collectors already know because of the evidence on forums, or will find out when an official investigation is concluded, that previously graded cards have not been examined properly, they will suspect everything they have in slabs. They will break them out, reevaluate, submit claims if necessary, but look to get their untainted cards re-graded. And someone new will be there to do it too and they will promise certainty, or at least a better method of detection.

Whether its a new grading company or an old one using a different color label and a date stamp, it will be a before and after thing. Like you can trust it now because we did it after the thing blew up. And card collectors who have embraced the slabbed cards only notion will trust it because they want to. Because graded cards has become its own market and flippers make more money and collectors think they have superior collections. So grading will not stop. It might even pick up if the investigation reveals wide spread abuse by any big sellers or even graders, causing already graded cards to be questioned and resubmitted to prove they are not trimmed or altered. Just in my view of course.

Paul Lesko is reporting on a lawsuit filed in regard to altered cards. . . should be interesting:

https://twitter.com/Paul_Lesko.../1228031260402036743

There is an article on Sports Collectors Daily that also notes the filing of the first class action law suit by the same collector. I think its an effort to revive interest in the official investigation, which has been pretty silent since a lot of sports card collectors started to examine their graded cards. Perhaps many collectors will sign up, or not so many. But if the FBI doesn't come back with any findings that result in penalties or charges to any of the companies named, it is going to be hard to prove wrong doing by more than a few select and probably minor individuals.

And then the same thing will be back some other time.