TZ1 and TZ2 by Twilight Zone

Hi Ed,

I have just been unsure what to make of these unusually rare "dealer promos," and have been left wondering if dealers were having to pay to get cards with their name on them especially with the tiny print runs. Thanks for letting me know.

I wasn't questioning your ethics because I've already seen you give away the art cards you produce and give away. I've seen you do extra work with cards for charity. I do question the practice of another dealer charging a customer, who is buying a product from that dealer (ie. a box), for a promo for that product, but I get it, some of those cards are unusually rare. Each dealer is going to decide the best use of them for his business. It is reasonable for something like that to be reserved as a freebie/thank you for a customer buying a box or making some other significant purchase.

It does create a gray area when some dealers outright sell a card that others give away. It does seem like an odd extra expense for Unstoppable to print just 25 or fewer of a card for multiple sets for particular dealers, but if those dealers move enough product, it must be worth it to them. I help compile a list of promos that weren't listed in PCE2008 for this forum and I also help with the updating of listings provided in Beckett's Non-Sport Almanac so it's good for me to know the story on those cards outside of my personal interest as a collector.

Jess

quote:

Originally posted by Scifi Cards:

quote:

Originally posted by catskilleagle:
I still don't know the situation with these "dealer promos" from Unstoppable. Did the dealer pay the company to have cards specially printed for them or were these cards specially printed by the company and then given to them for being good customers? I might at least see why a dealer would charge for a "promo" if they paid extra for their supply, but at that point, it's really an extra chase card.

To me a dealer would buy 10 pounds worth of goodwill with a customer if the customer is informed that the dealer paid extra for the card (assuming that did happen) and then gave one with a purchase rather than make it an additional charge. I can see not just handing those out to the crowd especially with the small print run but it doesn't smell right to try to squeeze that much out of a customer a dealer should want to keep happy. 10 pounds ($12-13 USD) is real money at a card show.

Dealers get these for ordering certain amounts of product from Unstoppable. I cannot say whether you could get more by offering to pay for them.

But, they are really pretty rare, usually less than 25 and in some cases less than 10 get sent.

Now, my customers who preorder these products get them for free, as it should be.

However, if someone is not a customer they don't get them for free. If someone just wants the promo, then it costs money as it cost me to invest in product to get them. I don't squeeze it out of anyone, you're free not to have one with no hard feelings.

This is how I approach all promos. Customers get them for free, as a Thank You for deciding to spend your money with me. But, if you just want promos then it will cost you for the card.

If that makes me a bad dealer, so be it. I give a LOT of free promos for my company away every year, but the ones from manufacturers come at a price.

Ed

I don't see any of this as being any different from what has been going on for a long time now. These Unstoppable promos handed out to or for certain dealers are incentives. Because there doesn't seem to be any specific requirement on a public level, the dealer can do what he/she likes with them.

By that I mean, if RA has a case incentive or a 3 case incentive and you buy that much product from your dealer, he had better give you that incentive for free. But if you buy less and you want the incentive too, you are going to have to pay for it. With these promos no one has a base number, so what makes one regular customer eligible for a free promo and another regular customer not eligible? I get it if its a new customer, but for a returning customer where is the line drawn, especially if we are talking about a small supply? And if the dealer wants to charge everyone equally, does that really mean he's bad? No not really, he may be foolish and lose business if other dealers are more customer friendly, but it would not violate any rules of fair practice if he/she wants the cash.

To me the thing that makes less sense than dealers who want cash, is promo collectors who are well aware of all the tricks and still go along with it. I guess you could say the same thing about all card collectors in a way, but the abuse of the promo card has been going on since the 90s and it has only gotten worse. Promo cards were designed to be advertising and they were supposed to be free. They were not made to be single dealer exclusives, or dealer incentives, or that new one "Adjective Promo Card" that I really don't even understand. If promo collectors didn't give them anymore value than the shipping and handling, no one would be talking about any of them.

Now there are 1/1 promo cards. It's not supposed to be like printing money. At least put an autograph on it or something.

DT1 and DT2 by Derek's Cards

Personally I always include promos with box/case purchases and always give promos and proof versions to master set buyers as a thank you, and to other buyers if they purchase a lot of cards.

And if someone’s a genuine promo card collector and emails me direct he’ll get them for little more than the cost of shipping to the US as someone who regularly posts on here well knows!!

Well if anyone is watching auctions, the most expensive 1/1 Avengers dealer promo has just sold!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Jason Wright:
Well if anyone is watching auctions, the most expensive 1/1 Avengers dealer promo has just sold!!!

Imagine if it were a color photo.

So does it mean that the particular dealer was too small to earn more than one, or did he ask for only one, or did he get others that were not 1/1s?

You know this really has nothing to do with promos. Manufacturers can make singular cards like that all the time if they will sell for hundreds and you don't even need an autograph.

Here it is. PH2 from the 2019 set

https://www.ebay.com/itm/THE-A...rksid=p2047675.l2557

It begs the question, if I received 25 promos and put 24 of them on the fire, would my last remaining promo be worth the same??

quote:

Originally posted by Tommy C:
Here it is. PH2 from the 2019 set

https://www.ebay.com/itm/THE-A...rksid=p2047675.l2557

And the seller is a NSU Card Talk member who probably won't forgive me so apologies in advance.

regards

John

I would say that it was given to him because of his connection to the Gum Guide book
I have seen somewere else that in the distribution of some cards that says ( and one was given to (.... ....) for his Gum Guide ,
it might of been in J Allenders listings not sure .All I know if one was made for me it would not be sold until I was 6 feet under.

quote:

Originally posted by Jason Wright:
It begs the question, if I received 25 promos and put 24 of them on the fire, would my last remaining promo be worth the same??

Only if you get a Notary as a witness, film the bonfire and put it all on youtube.

quote:

Originally posted by Jason Wright:
It begs the question, if I received 25 promos and put 24 of them on the fire, would my last remaining promo be worth the same??

That was my first thought too when I read "only 1 exists!" Perhaps more were printed but almost all were damaged. The scans in the auction don't show any flaws, though.

This bring up the issue of distinguishing "regular" Unstoppable promo cards from printer proofs, when you mix images from episodes that were filmed in black-and-white with episodes filmed in color. Auction sellers don't always say "proof" so I generally assign them as regulars unless I see the card backs. This one has a 100%-B&W back, so I assigned it to the printer proof section.

quote:

Originally posted by Raven:
I don't see any of this as being any different from what has been going on for a long time now. These Unstoppable promos handed out to or for certain dealers are incentives. Because there doesn't seem to be any specific requirement on a public level, the dealer can do what he/she likes with them.

Dealer incentives started to get more common when internet competition for box sales got more intense, and case buyers found that they had to reduce their markups on boxes below 30%, often making it difficult to make a profit. Incentives started with box-toppers to distinguish from retail pack sales, then case-toppers, then exclusives that provided cards that could be sold separately, without being driven only by "case price divided by boxes/case". Then we got incentives for 6 cases, 9 cases, 18 cases etc., or dealer specials where it varies from set to set and might even be influenced by allocations.

Cardmakers have to pay attention to their highest-volume customers or they won't have as many high-volume customers. I remember when there were separate prices for "wholesale" dealers who had a registered storefront.

Regarding the Unstoppable "regular" promos vs. proofs, sometimes it is hard to distinguish the two when the photo is black and white.

However, I believe that the regular ones always have a tiny bit of color on them, usually the title (Ex: The Avengers) but sometimes it is very easy to miss !

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Tommy C,

As an only accidental promo card owner, many of the finer nuances discussed in promo threads are lost on me. There has always been a problem with transparency in the promo world because its so easy for anybody to slap the word on, but something is wrong when people who have been collecting promo cards for decades have to debate on what to call promo cards issued from a licensed card maker. If they don't know, who does?

Just looking at the scan of the PH2 I would not know that it is a proof card, if it is a proof, because a black and white photo of Steed is normal for early years. I didn't even know that proof cards of promos were a thing. I have not heard of proof cards for RA incentives as an example, but maybe I missed it. Printing plates, yes.

The PH2 doesn't say it's a proof, or even 1/1, just Dealer Promo. It's numbered as if it were in sequence. I would presume there are PH1s, don't know how many. There could be PH3s. The description doesn't say anything about other promos for PH beyond "only 1 exists". I wouldn't know that from the card and I don't even know who is saying "only 1 exists". Does that information come from Unstoppable, the dealer, the seller, any third party researcher? Why would "only 1 exist" if it bears a sequence number and no other markings and why would the dealer get rid of a singular special card made only for him so quickly?

Seems to be a lot of "whys" and "whos" in there. Maybe if someone comes up with some of the answers people could figure out what to call it. That would be a good idea since a high priced sale will undoubtedly spawn more of these types of cards, whatever you eventually call them.

Personally I don't believe card makers want transparency because it holds them to it, which is why its up to collectors to establish the parameters for what makes a card one thing or another and what to call it when it starts to change. Unfortunately there is barely any universal agreement on anything among card collectors, so it just falls to demand and if it sells, it sells. Whatever it is.

Raven,

The "proof" thing is something which Unstoppable started 3-4 years ago.

It appears that 99 % of the promos, preview cards, and those little mini-sets which the company produces, come in proof versions, which are totally grey or black & White, and are simply much more limited than the regular promos. Some are limited to only 5 or 10.

They've done this with their Avengers, Saint, Space 1999, UFO, Terminator, and many other sets. Think they started this in 2017 or 2018

At the end of the day a card is a card and you either collect it or you don't.

regards

John
A card collector since at least 1958

For those of you keeping track of all of this, there are 12 folks (so far) who have 2 dealer promos each on this. They are, in alphabetical order:


Acme 3000
AMS-78
Cyber Cellar
Derek's Cards
JDW Cards
Premier
Roman Krause
Taekwando 88
Telly Mania
Top Cards
Twilight Zone
Umbrella (1 so far, but he will have 2)

I suspect that there will be 3 more dealers who will have promos, including Gazza Games.

Scifi Cards

SF1 and SF2 Each with a proof version.

Ed