quote:

Originally posted by webjon:
Dealers should *love* sketch cards. . . it is potentially a never ending collection.

You right Jon I love paying $50-60 or more per box and getting sketches, autos and costume cards that I sell in my $5 box. Its so much fun to spend $660 per case and get 24 hits worth $5 each. Yes there is that occasional $200-$500 card, but the law of averages is against you when you only buy 1 or 2 cases. Then you get to add in the cost of doing shows, ebay, paypal, gas, sorting time etc. You're right Jon, people can skip the premium packs, but that just gets them mad that a title they want is only premium. I had stargate collectors that were upset with the stargate premium packs. Why, because they collected all the other common sets for $5-$8 and now their collection is incomplete. Part of the reason people collect is to complete something. There should be nothing that rare in cards that it causes people to dump their collections. People don't need cards, they want them. Let them have it at a fair price and decent availabilty.


Dave

"Seems like we get a lot of people into that room Sunday morning for cardtalk, maybe if everyone chipped in a little and we used it Saturday night it might be fun. I'd love to see people bring boxes of their extra autos/costumes/sketches to trade."

Actually Dave we have box breaks, do trades, and talk a lot about cards at the Red Robin gathering. We had over 30 people last spring and over 25 last weekend. You should come by next time and give it a try. However, if you want to organize a trading session on Saturday night, I think that's a great idea, the more choices people have, the better.

I understand your main focus is cards during the show as is mine, but after 4 or 5 hours at the show on Saturday, I've had my fill and as Ted stated, I enjoy relaxing with my hobby friends and having a good time and not necessarily talking cards all the time, although that always is a big topic of conversation no matter where we go. I think there's plenty of time at the show to do a little of everything.

I think the gathering on Sunday is meant to be informative, people can swap/buy/sell cards during the show or after show hours as they please. To make Sunday morning into another swap meet seems a bit too much, we need to address other areas of the hobby also.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Moulder:

You right Jon I love paying $50-60 or more per box and getting sketches, autos and costume cards that I sell in my $5 box.

I can definitely see how the law of averages works out better for large volume buyers (so sell more, Dave!), but I really don't think box prices would drop $50-60 if they pulled out the hits. I'm sure there are examples of recent sets with few if any high end cards that are the same box price as everything else, but I don't collect those so I couldn't tell you what they are. . . And not all sketch products are expensive -- see 5FINITY or some of Topps sets (Indy Jones, LOTR Evolution) . . . I'm not saying there aren't expensive products with dud hits. . . I'm just saying the box prices wouldn't drop much if they pulled out the high end cards. . . ohh -- True Blood Legends. . . $50 MSRP for 27 cards and no chase. . .

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Moulder:

Why, because they collected all the other common sets for $5-$8 and now their collection is incomplete. Part of the reason people collect is to complete something. There should be nothing that rare in cards that it causes people to dump their collections. People don't need cards, they want them. Let them have it at a fair price and decent availabilty.

So at $5 for a 90 card set you are less than a nickel a card after buying a plastic box to sell 'em in. . . I get that collectors love it, but doesn't it seem like a complete set should be worth more than that? Especially after everything that you mentioned -- sorting time, paypal fees, gas, etc. . . Out of a regular box of cards there are what? 200 cards? At $5 a set 180 out of those 200 cards worth $9-10 total. . . it's a problem of economics. . .

Jon

quote:

Originally posted by webjon:

quote:

Originally posted by wolfie:

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Moulder:

Premium packs won't bring new collectors into the hobby. Look around the shows and you'll see mostly middle class older white males. We need to bring "FUN" and "TRADING" back to the hobby and more cards that are worth the hunt is the answer. I'm not talking about autos and sketches. I'm talking about nice cards that the average collector can afford, wants to buy and has a reasonable chance at completing over time.

Dave

This for me is the crux of the hobby right now and i agree with every word of this. People have become so obsessed with autographs and sketches and think that it is fine to have to buy 10 premium packs at $30 each just in order to make a base set. It is my belief that what the vast majority of card collectors and future card collectors want is a fun hobby that allows them to participate and complete their sets without having to take out a loan from the bank equal to the national debt in order to be able to do it and the sooner the hobby realises this and does something to redress this issue the sooner the ever shrinking collector base of this hobby may start to turn in the other direction.

This is the contradiction I don't understand. . . No one says you have to buy any premium packs to create the set, you can buy/trade for the individual cards at a reasonable price over time and build the set. . .

They have a saying in my industry. . . there are three options: Cheap, Fast and Good. . . you can pick any 2 of the options. . .

It applies here, except people against premium packs seem to be folks who want all three options -- to buy an awesome set of cards on the day of release for peanuts. Wait a few months. . . Sketchlords: $75 a pack. . . complete set of cards now: $15-20. Spartacus: $55 a pack. . . complete set of cards now $30-35. That is a far healthier price point than than stacks of base sets I have here that I can barely give away.

As for sketch cards. . . well they've been around for what 15-20 years now. They aren't going anywhere, and outside of individual licenses are the strongest segment of the hobby. . . Dealers should *love* sketch cards. . . it is potentially a never ending collection.

I have to say I totally disagree with you on the premium packs debate. ..but that's ok, everyone is entitled to their opinion. I don't feel the need to get/open a box of cards when they're released and I'm perfectly willing to pay a fair price. Do I think $30 is a fair price for a set of 25 cards? Not really. Do I care there are only 250 sets made? No, that just means there are collectors getting shut out. As for finding base cards... I didn't get a chance to check K&J's table but I didn't see anyone at the show who had singles for Warehouse 13 Season 2 and there is a very slim selection of those base card singles on Ebay. So exactly who would I be trading with? For that matter I didn't even see anyone with the WH13 premium packs for sale. The same could be said for Eureka (although Rittenhouse was giving away packs during the weekend).
I agree with Dave when he says the tv/movie properties can't be compared with the art card market. Back in the day I would set up at science fiction conventions and sell base sets all day to people who were Buffy or Star Trek fans and so forth. They had no interest in art related cards because they weren't necessarily card collectors. They were fans of a particular show and they collected/bought items related to that show.

Think how boring Open that Box day would be if there were only premium packs to open. 1 pack and you're done... how is that fun?

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Moulder:
I had stargate collectors that were upset with the stargate premium packs. Why, because they collected all the other common sets for $5-$8 and now their collection is incomplete. Part of the reason people collect is to complete something. There should be nothing that rare in cards that it causes people to dump their collections.

Unless you're incredibly rich, to have the expectation of being able to collect EVERYTHING in this hobby nowadays is unrealistic (and I'm talking before the Premium Pack debate).

If the high price in putting a set together is an issue, they can just chip away at it a piece at a time for a few bucks here and there, instead of having to shell out a ton of cash all at once. Plus it'll extend the experience (and in my opinion, fun) of putting the set together and perhaps enjoying it more. I just over the weekend finished a Master Set that I've been putting together over the past 2 years. Yeah, I could have just emptied my wallet and got it over with a while ago, but I persevered and ultimately finished it, and made some great connections along the way.

The thrill of the chase is always there. I hate to see someone give up because they think they've been priced out.

Sounds like we are beating a dead horse here.

I'm just glad that the show isn't this weekend when they're predicting 5+ inches of snow for the Allentown area.

quote:

Originally posted by Ted Dastick Jr.:

If the high price in putting a set together is an issue, they can just chip away at it a piece at a time for a few bucks here and there,

I think the argument against premium packs is that there is nothing in them that allows you to buy it for a few bucks at a time. Even one base card will cost more from a dealer than the current cost of a complete base set.

When people from outside the hobby ( or potential new customers as we call them ) pass by the stall and casually ask how much are the cards, they are not intrested in you explaining that it takes quite a few exspensive packs to make up this base set and so it is £20. Once you have mentioned the £20 your potential new customer has left the table and gone to look for a cheaper hobby.

quote:

Originally posted by WandringRebel:
I'm just glad that the show isn't this weekend when they're predicting 5+ inches of snow for the Allentown area.

Yes, the weather seems to be usually cold for this time of year. If this weather pattern continues, they might need to schedule the Philly Show earlier in October 2012. LOL

quote:

Originally posted by Barbara C:

quote:

Originally posted by WandringRebel:
I'm just glad that the show isn't this weekend when they're predicting 5+ inches of snow for the Allentown area.

Yes, the weather seems to be usually cold for this time of year. If this weather pattern continues, they might need to schedule the Philly Show earlier in October 2012. LOL

Had 3 inches of snow in the yard this morning. Lost a Birch tree with all the freezing rain last night before it changed over.

I miss Summer!!!!!

Dave

quote:

Originally posted by wolfie:


When people from outside the hobby ( or potential new customers as we call them ) pass by the stall and casually ask how much are the cards, they are not intrested in you explaining that it takes quite a few exspensive packs to make up this base set and so it is £20. Once you have mentioned the £20 your potential new customer has left the table and gone to look for a cheaper hobby.

Then a saavy dealer would say, though that set might be a bit intimidating, let me show you these less expensive but equally cool card sets for only, say $3!

I love the passion in this thread, we have some very strong feelings expressed along with valid arguments, but there are two separate discussions going on here. One is about show reports and the other is about premium packs.

In the first case, with all due respect to change, I have no spare time to check multiple locations for news on the same topics. I read Card Talk. I'm not on Facebook and, even though the Blog is a click away, I forget about it. Call it old fashioned if you like, but the more you spread out information the less people are going to find it.

As for premium packs/boxes, this debate should be in its own thread. We have discussed it a lot already on Card Talk, but it is usually in reference to a particular product rather than the formats (there are at least 3 that are being used right now) and the comments are all over the place. Put it in one spot and understand that the viewpoints depend very much on who you are. The opinions of dealers, case buyers, box buyers and pack buyers are not going to be the same. And the argument that collectors have to change their buying habits to accomodate the best interests of card manufacturers and dealers will not satisfy anyone.

after all raven thats why cardtalks here isn't it
I dont go to 4 supermarkets when I can get the same stuff at one , CARDTALK my one stop shop

The video of the manufacturers' panel at the Fall Philly Non-Sports Card Show is now online. I had some audio issues and it took me a bit to get online but hopefully it's a bit better now (you may have to turn up your speakers in certain places). You can see a bit more about it on the blog (link immediately below) or watch it directly through the box below.

Non-Sport Update Blog: Manufacturerer's Panel at the 55th Philly Non-Sports Card Show

Things get interesting around the 47 minute mark.
I love good Q & A sessions.

Thanks for posting.

Thanks Harris for posting.

The last question was right on target.

With the dust finally settling around here I finally found time to offer a FIRST TIMER review...
Could only attend Saturday because of difficulties arranging flights. Arrived at Philadelphia International Airport late Friday morning, picked up a rental car, then about an hour drive to Allentown. Arrived at the Holiday Inn downtown around mid-afternoon and settled-in. The staff and rooms were great, and restaurants were within walking distance. Visually, PA, Allentown, and the show location were not what I expected.
Saturday off to the show. Just about a 5 minute drive. Arrived about 9:40am. The line may have had 75 waiting. There was a chill in the air, and some guy dressed as Frankenstein was lurking. The door opened around 9:55am, and I followed the line down the hallway, past at least three card shops, to the registration table.
The Toser’s were distributing the promo packs, and I recall Harris commenting when he saw me, “You made it.” The line moved at a decent pace. Paid the entry fee, and toward the entry ramp.
My first impression was “WOW”, the room seemed so large. I was concerned whether I would be able to get around the room in one day. Noticed Ron to my left so I started at his table, and so went the day…table to table. Kevin from K&J was there, Dave Moulder, & Paul from Chicago.
Since luggage space was limited I focused on chase cards and packs. Found at least three-four dealers with bargain bins/binders and really good prices. There did appear to be as many vintage sellers as modern. Around 4:00pm I had pretty much reached my space limit, and by then the room seemed less formidable.
Just about every seller was welcoming and would work with you.
The promo hunt really did not work for me because I was too focused and rushed. Thanks to the lady at RA, she was kind enough to find me a Brady Bunch promo. My only real disappointment was the lack of modern commons. I did find two sellers with singles, and was able to finish off a few sets. Besides moving to a Friday-Saturday schedule I hope the show can find a way to have a lot more singles on hand next time.
Overall, my first experience leans positive….2.85 out 4 thumbs up, and I hope to return next fall and attend both days. Time and circumstances will tell. Thanks Harris and company for hosting.

PS, It would be great to see more of you Philly folks at the next Chicago show in March 2012.

Thanks for the report X-Time. Seems like there were quite a few first timers at the October show. Hopefully this is the start of a new trend.

I just realized I never posted the sketch card I picked up from Chris "Cabbie" Bradberry.

Thanks Harris. I will do my best to attempt one of those shows in a near future!

Thanks for posting the video, it's interesting as always.

Good review xtime!

Jon