quote:

Originally posted by webjon:
Interesting. . . thanks for the summary. . .

I can understand why dealers who break product may not feel as though they have as much to offer with premium packs. I think the market for them is slightly different than a traditional release.

That said I think a premium pack is an attractive option for a comic shop. There isn't anything to cherry pick, and it's a lower price point. I think in order to capture that market they would need to produce a less expensive 'box,' I don't see a hobby shop that normally orders 2-3 boxes picking up a box of premium packs.

What I find interesting lately, though, is that you can release a premium pack product and a bunch of people get upset, but if you release a 'factory set' -- like The Brady Bunch -- no one seems to complain about the format.

I think the difference is that with the factory set like Brygent is doing you can strip off the autos and chase cards and still be able to sell base sets at a fair price for the collector that doesn't want to spend a lot for a base set. With Premium sets if you open and sell off the high end stuff you have nothing left to sell to the average collecter that just wants a base set.

I do miss having a wrapper for the set, but as a person concerned with the environment I like that there is no wrappers going to the trash. I suggested to Inkworks years ago that they sell dealers cases of cards that aren't sealed in packs with just a few wrappers thrown in to put with the sets.
Dave

[QUOTE] The Philly show is a weekend event that includes the show, the Red Robin gathering, casino trips, etc. QUOTE]

You can go to a casino any other day of the year. Philly non-sport is only 4 days a year. A card sawp meeting with pizza would be more appropiate on Saturday night.

Sorry I was there to sell/buy/trade cards, not go to the casino.

Dave

quote:

Originally posted by WandringRebel:
That's why I think there's less complaining about the base set + chase format... it's a better value and caters to both the base card and autograph/sketch card collectors.

Clearly each release is different, but do you really think a factory set release like Brady Bunch at $150 for 5 autos and 1 base set is a better value than. . . say a 5FINITY product where you'd get ~10 sketches for $150? It's sort apples to oranges, but that's the point. . . I don't think you can make a blanket statement to say one is a better value than the other.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Moulder:

I think the difference is that with the factory set like Brygent is doing you can strip off the autos and chase cards and still be able to sell base sets at a fair price for the collector that doesn't want to spend a lot for a base set.

From a manufacturing perspective though that's an issue. . . a big part of your design/manufacture cost is tied up in part of the product that people don't want to spend much money on. . .

What if they made a really small base set. . . like 9-18 cards, and included 1-3 cards per premium pack?

quote:

Originally posted by webjon:

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Moulder:

I think the difference is that with the factory set like Brygent is doing you can strip off the autos and chase cards and still be able to sell base sets at a fair price for the collector that doesn't want to spend a lot for a base set.

From a manufacturing perspective though that's an issue. . . a big part of your design/manufacture cost is tied up in part of the product that people don't want to spend much money on. . .

What if they made a really small base set. . . like 9-18 cards, and included 1-3 cards per premium pack?

Why bother at that point, how many images can you get on 9-18 cards. The set is supposed to represent the property, movie, tv show or artists work. What can you show in 9-18 cards. Not much

Dave

quote:

Originally posted by webjon:

quote:

Originally posted by WandringRebel:
That's why I think there's less complaining about the base set + chase format... it's a better value and caters to both the base card and autograph/sketch card collectors.

Clearly each release is different, but do you really think a factory set release like Brady Bunch at $150 for 5 autos and 1 base set is a better value than. . . say a 5FINITY product where you'd get ~10 sketches for $150? It's sort apples to oranges, but that's the point. . . I don't think you can make a blanket statement to say one is a better value than the other.

I don't think the 5Finity products can be in this discussion as my understanding (I've never bought a pack) is that there ae no base cards, it's only sketches. And yes, I'd rather pay $150 for 5 autographs and a base set because as Dave said, dealers can sell the autos to people that only want them and the base sets to people who only want the base set.

Point of information:
The NSU blog is part of the NSU website. It is accessible from two separate links within the home page and from the top of the main Card Talk page. The home page also features links to individual blog postings so you can quickly get to individual stories. In addition, any notice about a particular blog posting within Card Talk is usually linked directly to it. The blog itself allows for reader comments to be posted for individual articles.
~Alan

Just something to ponder. When the Philly non-sport show was at it greatest was when dealers had singles to help collectors finish their sets and boxes for them to buy so they could start new sets. Somewhere along the line we've lost track of that fact.

I guess we need to rename some things.

1) "Non-Sport trading cards" to "Rare Expensive Entertainment factory sets"

2) The "Philly non-sport show" To the "Non-Philly, non-trading, Casino trip, Drink at Red Robin and socialize show".

Premium packs won't bring new collectors into the hobby. Look aroung the shows and you'll see mostly middle class older white males. We need to bring "FUN" and "TRADING" back to the hobby and more cards that are worth the hunt is the answer. I'm not talking about autos and sketches. I'm talking about nice cards that the average collector can afford, wants to buy and has a reasonable chance at completing over time.

I got into this because I loved the hunt for cards. I still remember as a child getting wacky packs and trying to finish my set. As a dealer I cry when I think about all those stickers I ruined on my notebooks or on my door(Sorry Mom), but I realize that's why they are rare today.

I try to make people have fun at my table and I encourage trading between my customers when I don't have something. I bring massive amounts of cards to a show and I usually take home more than I start with. I give drinks to customers at shows and have a party at my house for my regular customers that live in MA or surrounding area.

Maybe I'm nuts, but I love cards and toys.

Dave

quote:

Originally posted by WandringRebel:

quote:

Originally posted by webjon:

quote:

Originally posted by WandringRebel:
That's why I think there's less complaining about the base set + chase format... it's a better value and caters to both the base card and autograph/sketch card collectors.

Clearly each release is different, but do you really think a factory set release like Brady Bunch at $150 for 5 autos and 1 base set is a better value than. . . say a 5FINITY product where you'd get ~10 sketches for $150? It's sort apples to oranges, but that's the point. . . I don't think you can make a blanket statement to say one is a better value than the other.

I don't think the 5Finity products can be in this discussion as my understanding (I've never bought a pack) is that there ae no base cards, it's only sketches. And yes, I'd rather pay $150 for 5 autographs and a base set because as Dave said, dealers can sell the autos to people that only want them and the base sets to people who only want the base set.

You can't just dismiss an entire realm of premium pack as if it doesn't exist because it doesn't fit in your argument. . .

But you have made my point. For $150 I'd rather have a pack with 10 sketches than a pack with a set and 5 autos. You'd rather have the set. I don't think you can make the argument that one is a better value than the other simply because it's not what you collect.

There is a HUGE variety of premium pack formats. . .

Jon

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Moulder:

Why bother at that point, how many images can you get on 9-18 cards. The set is supposed to represent the property, movie, tv show or artists work. What can you show in 9-18 cards. Not much

Dave

Perhaps. . . what would the minimum base set size need to be to make base set collectors happy? I'm trying to figure out how a manufacturer could still produce a base set product that would make base set collectors happy while minimizing their costs. . .

quote:

Originally posted by webjon:TE]

You can't just dismiss an entire realm of premium pack as if it doesn't exist because it doesn't fit in your argument. . .

But you have made my point. For $150 I'd rather have a pack with 10 sketches than a pack with a set and 5 autos. You'd rather have the set. I don't think you can make the argument that one is a better value than the other simply because it's not what you collect.

There is a HUGE variety of premium pack formats. . .

Jon

Sorry Jon, but one the kind cards should not be compared with trading cards. You are trying to oompare artwork to mass produced cards. Whats the fun of being the only person to own a piece of cardboard. Get your sketch book out and have someting commissioned for you.

Dave

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Moulder:
2) The "Philly non-sport show" To the "Non-Philly, non-trading, Casino trip, Drink at Red Robin and socialize show".

Dave. . .

First. . . you are nuts. . . but you know that. . .

I love your sentiment, and I love what you bring to shows -- and I'm not just talking about inventory. I enjoy hanging out at your table going through boxes of stuff shooting the breeze you, Donna and the kids and just having a good time.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Moulder:
2) The "Philly non-sport show" To the "Non-Philly, non-trading, Casino trip, Drink at Red Robin and socialize show".

This made me laugh. . . I've never been to Philly. . . but is this really what the show is like, or is it just a disconnect between what actually happens at the show and the reports and discussions that happen regarding the show? I ask because almost no one discusses the Chicago Shows, but there are certainly lots of Card Talkers at the shows. . . so I find here, that the discussion on the board generally doesn't accurately reflect the show. (You are coming to Chicago in 2012, right? Or at least Detroit?!?)

I personally think that bringing new people to the hobby is going to be more dependent of license than how the product is released. . . I wish I knew which licenses were the next Twilight, but I don't. . . And I don't think that cards marketed to collectors are the same as those marketed at kids. . . even back in the day. . . there are tons of $1.99 packs of things at Target -- dog tags, stickers, card games, who knows what else. . . I think those are the products that will eventually bring people in to non-sport card collecting. . . or sports card collecting. . . that's where a lot of non-sport collectors start too, and sport cards are alive and well. . . (yeah, different, but still alive and well). . .

Jon

quote:

Originally posted by webjon:

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Moulder:
2) The "Philly non-sport show" To the "Non-Philly, non-trading, Casino trip, Drink at Red Robin and socialize show".

This made me laugh. . . I've never been to Philly. . . but is this really what the show is like, or is it just a disconnect between what actually happens at the show and the reports and discussions that happen regarding the show?

The Casino thing is really starting to bug me. I've had customers chased away from my table because they want to close the room so they can catch the bus to the casino. I'm not talking 1/2 hour after the show close, I'm taking about turning off the lights at 5:00. One artist at the show last week was working on a sketch when the lights were turned off. People are asking for discounts on the $5 autograh box and then talking about getting drinks at Red Robin. Do they ask for discounts at Red Robin???

I always say to people that ask for discounts did you bring anything to trade?? Of course most of the time the answer is no. Of course my favorite is when they have no name autos and want to trade for $300 auto card even up.

No plans on Chicago as of yet. Take up a collection to pay for my hotel and gas and I'll think about it.

Actually had a customer at Philly offer to get a discount on a hotel room if I come back in the spring.

Dave

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Moulder:
You can go to a casino any other day of the year.

But not with so many fellow Card Talkers.

I think the show has morphed beyond the collecting aspect to a "family reunion" of sorts. I was at the show on Sunday from the time the doors opened and didn't spend any money until about 1:00 because I was walking around catching up with everyone.

While I go to the show to feed my collecting habit with things I won't find otherwise, at this point I think the best part is catching up with old friends face to face,

quote:

Originally posted by Ted Dastick Jr.:

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Moulder:
You can go to a casino any other day of the year.

But not with so many fellow Card Talkers.

I think the show has morphed beyond the collecting aspect to a "family reunion" of sorts. I was at the show on Sunday from the time the doors opened and didn't spend any money until about 1:00 because I was walking around catching up with everyone.

While I go to the show to feed my collecting habit with things I won't find otherwise, at this point I think the best part is catching up with old friends face to face,

When I meet up with old friends or family the last thing I think about is sitting in a casino. Do you all play one machine or one hand of cards?? I think the tables only have like 6 places for people to sit. Where do the other card talkers sit? I can see it now everybody taking turns to pull the one armed bandit.

Like I said, maybe a card talk pizza party would make more sense and lead to some trading.

Dave

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Moulder:

Premium packs won't bring new collectors into the hobby. Look around the shows and you'll see mostly middle class older white males. We need to bring "FUN" and "TRADING" back to the hobby and more cards that are worth the hunt is the answer. I'm not talking about autos and sketches. I'm talking about nice cards that the average collector can afford, wants to buy and has a reasonable chance at completing over time.

Dave

This for me is the crux of the hobby right now and i agree with every word of this. People have become so obsessed with autographs and sketches and think that it is fine to have to buy 10 premium packs at $30 each just in order to make a base set. It is my belief that what the vast majority of card collectors and future card collectors want is a fun hobby that allows them to participate and complete their sets without having to take out a loan from the bank equal to the national debt in order to be able to do it and the sooner the hobby realises this and does something to redress this issue the sooner the ever shrinking collector base of this hobby may start to turn in the other direction.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Moulder:

quote:

Originally posted by Ted Dastick Jr.:

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Moulder:
You can go to a casino any other day of the year.

But not with so many fellow Card Talkers.

I think the show has morphed beyond the collecting aspect to a "family reunion" of sorts. I was at the show on Sunday from the time the doors opened and didn't spend any money until about 1:00 because I was walking around catching up with everyone.

While I go to the show to feed my collecting habit with things I won't find otherwise, at this point I think the best part is catching up with old friends face to face,

When I meet up with old friends or family the last thing I think about is sitting in a casino. Do you all play one machine or one hand of cards?? I think the tables only have like 6 places for people to sit. Where do the other card talkers sit? I can see it now everybody taking turns to pull the one armed bandit.

Like I said, maybe a card talk pizza party would make more sense and lead to some trading.

Dave

Last time I went to a casino was for my 30th birthday. My wife invited my parents and a bunch of friends and we had a great time. We all ate dinner together then hit the gaming floor. Naturally the bigger group broke into smaller groups that would intermingle throughout the evening. We all don't play the same machine or same hand of cards at once, but we could all sit at the same table or play consecutive machines, making the experience more fun being able to share it with friends.

Any groups larger than 8 would be tough to have all together anywhere, even at a pizza party. When I went to the Red Robin gathering last May I never even got to converse with the folks at the other end of the line of tables. But I still had fun.

Not saying your reasoning is wrong, but sometimes it's fun to go pretty much anywhere with a group of friends.

quote:

quote:
Originally posted by Dave Moulder:

Premium packs won't bring new collectors into the hobby. Look around the shows and you'll see mostly middle class older white males. We need to bring "FUN" and "TRADING" back to the hobby and more cards that are worth the hunt is the answer. I'm not talking about autos and sketches. I'm talking about nice cards that the average collector can afford, wants to buy and has a reasonable chance at completing over time.

Dave



This for me is the crux of the hobby right now and i agree with every word of this. People have become so obsessed with autographs and sketches and think that it is fine to have to buy 10 premium packs at $30 each just in order to make a base set. It is my belief that what the vast majority of card collectors and future card collectors want is a fun hobby that allows them to participate and complete their sets without having to take out a loan from the bank equal to the national debt in order to be able to do it and the sooner the hobby realises this and does something to redress this issue the sooner the ever shrinking collector base of this hobby may start to turn in the other direction.

So says me.

I think it's great to see all the new blood from the creative end, but I wish more emphasis would be placed on making more kick-*** base sets and interesting chase.
I think art cards are and should be a different branch of the hobby.

quote:

Originally posted by Ted Dastick Jr.:

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Moulder:

quote:

Originally posted by Ted Dastick Jr.:

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Moulder:
You can go to a casino any other day of the year.

But not with so many fellow Card Talkers.

I think the show has morphed beyond the collecting aspect to a "family reunion" of sorts. I was at the show on Sunday from the time the doors opened and didn't spend any money until about 1:00 because I was walking around catching up with everyone.

While I go to the show to feed my collecting habit with things I won't find otherwise, at this point I think the best part is catching up with old friends face to face,

When I meet up with old friends or family the last thing I think about is sitting in a casino. Do you all play one machine or one hand of cards?? I think the tables only have like 6 places for people to sit. Where do the other card talkers sit? I can see it now everybody taking turns to pull the one armed bandit.

Like I said, maybe a card talk pizza party would make more sense and lead to some trading.

Dave

Last time I went to a casino was for my 30th birthday. My wife invited my parents and a bunch of friends and we had a great time. We all ate dinner together then hit the gaming floor. Naturally the bigger group broke into smaller groups that would intermingle throughout the evening. We all don't play the same machine or same hand of cards at once, but we could all sit at the same table or play consecutive machines, making the experience more fun being able to share it with friends.

Any groups larger than 8 would be tough to have all together anywhere, even at a pizza party. When I went to the Red Robin gathering last May I never even got to converse with the folks at the other end of the line of tables. But I still had fun.

Not saying your reasoning is wrong, but sometimes it's fun to go pretty much anywhere with a group of friends.

So you've proved my point. You can't be a group at Red Robin or the Casino. There's just too much noise and not enough room for the group.

Seems like we get a lot of people into that room Sunday morning for cardtalk, maybe if everyone chipped in a little and we used it Saturday night it might be fun. I'd love to see people bring boxes of their extra autos/costumes/sketches to trade.

Unfortunately the card talk meeting is not so much about us talking about cards as it is the magazine and the manufactures telling us what is coming out new.

Dave

quote:

Originally posted by wolfie:

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Moulder:

Premium packs won't bring new collectors into the hobby. Look around the shows and you'll see mostly middle class older white males. We need to bring "FUN" and "TRADING" back to the hobby and more cards that are worth the hunt is the answer. I'm not talking about autos and sketches. I'm talking about nice cards that the average collector can afford, wants to buy and has a reasonable chance at completing over time.

Dave

This for me is the crux of the hobby right now and i agree with every word of this. People have become so obsessed with autographs and sketches and think that it is fine to have to buy 10 premium packs at $30 each just in order to make a base set. It is my belief that what the vast majority of card collectors and future card collectors want is a fun hobby that allows them to participate and complete their sets without having to take out a loan from the bank equal to the national debt in order to be able to do it and the sooner the hobby realises this and does something to redress this issue the sooner the ever shrinking collector base of this hobby may start to turn in the other direction.

This is the contradiction I don't understand. . . No one says you have to buy any premium packs to create the set, you can buy/trade for the individual cards at a reasonable price over time and build the set. . .

They have a saying in my industry. . . there are three options: Cheap, Fast and Good. . . you can pick any 2 of the options. . .

It applies here, except people against premium packs seem to be folks who want all three options -- to buy an awesome set of cards on the day of release for peanuts. Wait a few months. . . Sketchlords: $75 a pack. . . complete set of cards now: $15-20. Spartacus: $55 a pack. . . complete set of cards now $30-35. That is a far healthier price point than than stacks of base sets I have here that I can barely give away.

As for sketch cards. . . well they've been around for what 15-20 years now. They aren't going anywhere, and outside of individual licenses are the strongest segment of the hobby. . . Dealers should *love* sketch cards. . . it is potentially a never ending collection.