quote:

Originally posted by X:
But are the prices for the retro sets really that expensive when you are essentially getting 70-100 card chase sets?

And are there "too many" sets when no-one has to buy everything?
I didn't buy the Live And Let Die throwback set from last year's release because it is my least favourite Bond film, but it is a fan favourite. I actually think these retro film sets will have a wider appeal to more casual Bond fans because you don't have to be a Bond "fanatic" to love a particular Bond film.

Good points, but certainly something has gone wrong if, according to your post in the other thread, dealers are practically giving away the QoS base set. Is that because it can be completed in every box and too many boxes were released for the demand? Or is it because only the retro sets and the gold sets are regarded as having value? Or is it because only the autographs are the draw and all the sets are an afterthought?

About the retros, they are in B/W when the three films used here were made in color. Nothing dictates that a retro has to be in B/W, the original Mars Attacks cards were in color. These retro cards should have B/W pictures only if the film was in B/W. I think they lack appeal in B/W.

About the number of sets, quite right, no one has to buy everything, but it is at best a lazy idea and at worst it gives box buyers nothing that adds to value.

Here's the lazy idea, if one set is good, two must be better. If two sets is better, three sets must be even better. Wait, if three sets are even better, four sets must be great. That is not an idea, it is overkill.

Now I have bought a box and I get the eight retro cards and I get the two gold cards and I get whatever chase cards I'm supposed to get. Now what? I'm not trying to complete the retros or golds, if I wanted them I would have to buy the sets whole. These extra cards (hits?) are of no value to me as a collector. I could try to trade them or sell them, but I really don't do that and I have so few anyway, it's hardly worth the effort. I would rather have another $8 autograph card than cards I have no use for at all.

It is of course a matter of opinion and as I said, there are some very nice autograph cards in this release. However, the AVERAGE box that does not have one of those short printed autos in it (as most won't have), does not have good value. A handful of cards from sets you will never complete does not add value and that is the reason why I tried one box only. I understood that going in, I'm not complaining about it, only explaining it. I just won't be buying any more boxes because this is not a product for me. I will pick up individual cards as I can.

quote:

Originally posted by Raven:
Or is it because only the autographs are the draw and all the sets are an afterthought?

The base sets are surprisingly expensive to produce, so I would not call them an afterthought. (Most dealers sell base sets for far less than they cost to make.)

Bond will always be a 'bread-and-butter' set for RA so there will always be a decent sized box count, but cheap base sets are nothing new so I wouldn't say indicative of problems with this set.

So what is the right answer Raven?
People complain the base sets are not worth enough and other people complain the chase-base retro sets (introduced no doubt to party combat 'worthless' base sets) are worth too much!

Like womble says, I don't think you could call the sets an afterthought. Too much work goes into combing through the archives to select images not often seen or used on cards (or anywhere) and in writing the text backs. Steve at RA is a Bond fan himself, and I don't feel anything is half-assed with these sets.

I would rather all the throwback sets were in colour but as I've said elsewhere in this thread, Steve shared a long time ago that a lot of the decent quality and rarer images from the older films are only available in b&w (I'm sure he stated they don't really use screengrabs).
Up until 1969 for Anglo's OHMSS set, all the original Bond bubblegum card sets were b&w so I think given the retro concept of these RA sets, it makes perfect sense to have all the films up until You Only Live Twice in b&w. As for Live And Let Die and Spy Who Loved Me, I'd rather they were colour.
With Mars Attacks... they were artwork cards made from high quality colour images created specifically for reproduction so is not a fair comparison.

Not buying boxes anymore I'll admit I didn't really grasp how disappointing it may be to some to only have a handful of throwback chase cards to show for your box purchases. But then again, collectors were complaining that making card sets was not like the old days, where you'd have to put the work in to complete sets and chase down singles making them more worthwhile and valuable. There is a very buoyant market of collectors happily chasing down singles for vintage sets, so why wouldn't they for modern sets if the quality is there?
As for RA catering for the case-buyer... I don't have much on an opinion on that, other than, isn't that what most manufacturers do: manufacture sets for their immediate customer who breaks the majority of the product i.e. dealers who do bust loads of cases?

quote:

Originally posted by X:
With Mars Attacks... they were artwork cards made from high quality colour images created specifically for reproduction so is not a fair comparison.

Not buying boxes anymore I'll admit I didn't really grasp how disappointing it may be to some to only have a handful of throwback chase cards to show for your box purchases. But then again, collectors were complaining that making card sets was not like the old days, where you'd have to put the work in to complete sets and chase down singles making them more worthwhile and valuable. There is a very buoyant market of collectors happily chasing down singles for vintage sets, so why wouldn't they for modern sets if the quality is there?
As for RA catering for the case-buyer... I don't have much on an opinion on that, other than, isn't that what most manufacturers do: manufacture sets for their immediate customer who breaks the majority of the product i.e. dealers who do bust loads of cases?

We don't disagree at all, we just don't buy cards the same way. I am the one who is supposed to adjust my ways, but I prefer not to.

I only used Mars Attacks as an easy example of an old set that was in color. You explained why the throwback sets are in B/W, and it is apparently easier for production purposes, rather than just to create a retro look.

As for the whole set value issue, it falls back on the swinging pendulum and the old "be careful what you ask for, you might just get it". Collectors wanted base sets that held value and now they have base sets they can't complete. Many don't like that idea either and it is not like the old days when you wandered into shows with your want lists and found dealers with boxes of .50 cent singles or had other collectors that you traded with in person. I would still do that if I could, but I'm not going on eBay to find card #77 of any set or try to build one of these retros one card at a time. In that way I have changed.

As for that swinging pendulum, it has gone too far even for the case breakers who are now complaining about the number of multiple cases involved. Truly only dealers can afford to break SOME of this stuff now and it has to be stuff that they know they have buyers for, or else they will be stuck.

It was a couple of years ago that I read a very truthful comment by Steve on the RA board in response to a complaint from a collector. I forget which premium product it was about, but Steve told the guy that RA is not making product for the small collector anymore and has been not doing it for a long time already. By small collector he was referring to a single box buyer that can't complete anymore, forget about pack buyers. So yes, these products are designed for case buyers now, that's no secret, but once you go into multiple cases it has hit a level where only the dealers and a very few affluent collectors can go. Now you are designing for the secondary market, not the front line collector.

Thankfully all product is not done this way and there are still smaller sets on lesser titles that I have no trouble buying in the manner that I want to collect.