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Picture of clearblue
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I just don't think you can compare commission art with pack pulled cards.

It's like saying an in-person autograph is as valuable as a pack pulled one.

With high-end cards, the value of the inserts/hits should, in theory, be more valuable because they are harder to obtain and because fewer people can afford to open the product and because the risk is much higher. It's like sports cards; a rookie card #/99 from a $500 pack is probably 10x more valuable than a rookie card also #/99 from a $100 box.

The return is much greater. Sure, the cost of a pack is insane, but the value of the hits from it are typically adjusted to reflect the price of the overall product.

The argument that i'm hearing from a lot of people is that the sketch from Marvel Premier is the same value as the one pulled from some other cheaper product. That really isn't the case because to obtain the card has a higher risk and cost to it. I certainly wouldn't value a sketch from a $200 pack the same as a $30-50 product even if the artist was the same, assuming that the odds were similar.

Not that I expect him to be contributing any art in Marvel Premier, but for the sake of an example, imagine pulling a Stan Lee sketch. I don't think you would value it at $500 like the Avengers sketches floating around. The price tag on it would be much higher (I hope). But hey, if one wants to give it away for less, than I'm all for it. Save me some $ on that auction site.
 
Posts: 366 | Location: Richmond | Registered: May 05, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of Tattoox
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What I'm saying is that I'd rather get more for my buck and get what I want than take this risk.

I'd rather my hard earn money goes into the hands of the artist and not into a dealer or manufacturer, just because less are produced for said series.

I don't collect for an investment. I collect for fun and for what I like.

IMO, it's ridiculous to pay more for an autograph or sketch just because it has a logo on it and/or came from a rarer release.

I prefer to meet the artists and the actors. So what if it's not attached to a brand or have some fancy COA. The experience and story is worth a lot more than reselling it.

Like sharing ferret litter box training with Yvonne Craig and her sister while Herb Jefferson Jr laughed about not believing that he's hearing such a discussion. Or sharing Henry Fonda stories with Robert Englund. An most recently, actually grossing out Lauri Holden. She REALLY doesn't like maggots (not me, the ones glued to my guts).


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Posts: 1619 | Location: Oregon | Registered: August 25, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of clearblue
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Fair enough. That's great. I think that is probably the better route to go if all you want is a piece of the actor/show/movie/artist. At the end of the day, it's really about intrinsic value and everyone has a different way of measuring that.

But I'm all about collecting cards and by that, I mean ones created by trading card companies-stuff that has some kind of record in time as being produced by a trading card company. 10, 20, 30, 40 years from now, I want to look through my collection and be able to trace back the history of the card. Sure, I might not have a feel-good story about how I obtained it, but maybe I'll be able to say that I own one of only 10 sketch cards from a very famous and respected artist. If I can say I pulled it out of a pack myself, even better.

If this release can be anything like Marvel Masterpieces Series 1 (2007), I think this would justify the cost. It's highly unlikely, but I'm a glass half-full type of guy most of the time and I'll reserve final judgement on the product until it's released.
 
Posts: 366 | Location: Richmond | Registered: May 05, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of Tattoox
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See, I can do one better. Or at least in this point in time.

I have a unique one of one.....of many items, plus a story to pass on to my family. I'm not the only one to have this card or bust autographed, but I doubt there's very many picture discs and collector plates autographed by Stan Lee. Nor have the opportunity to be with friends and family to meet with Stan. In 10, 20, or what years from now I can look back at my collection and recall fond memories of my adventures with friends and family while meeting celebrities and increasing my collection. Every one has what they like to collect and how they like to go about it.





You can't pull a Robert Kirkman first kill from a pack.


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Posts: 1619 | Location: Oregon | Registered: August 25, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Um....getting back on track. I totally agree with planet from page two, and his statement:

"I honestly see this as Upper Deck attempting to cash in on the secondary market prices cards can reach. "

U.D. obviously keeps a close eye as to what sketches can fetch for. So, they cut out the multi-box base sets, save money for themselves, and ask the consumer to bite down and plump $200 on a 5 card pack. I believe the ONLY way for this to work is if they bring out the big guns, Jim Lee, etc etc doing some sketches. As for me, I'll pass and look for the box breaks. If I like what I see, maybe I'll buy.
 
Posts: 90 | Location: New Mexico | Registered: March 25, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of Tattoox
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quote:
Originally posted by Cujobyte:
Um....getting back on track. I totally agree with planet from page two, and his statement:

"I honestly see this as Upper Deck attempting to cash in on the secondary market prices cards can reach. "

U.D. obviously keeps a close eye as to what sketches can fetch for. So, they cut out the multi-box base sets, save money for themselves, and ask the consumer to bite down and plump $200 on a 5 card pack. I believe the ONLY way for this to work is if they bring out the big guns, Jim Lee, etc etc doing some sketches. As for me, I'll pass and look for the box breaks. If I like what I see, maybe I'll buy.


I agree, but don't foresee many big names and many cards from big names. Will also have to wait and see.

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Posts: 1619 | Location: Oregon | Registered: August 25, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by clearblue:
The argument that i'm hearing from a lot of people is that the sketch from Marvel Premier is the same value as the one pulled from some other cheaper product. That really isn't the case because to obtain the card has a higher risk and cost to it. I certainly wouldn't value a sketch from a $200 pack the same as a $30-50 product even if the artist was the same, assuming that the odds were similar.


You are correct for traditional cards but sketches distort this somewhat, for example we've had some sets where an artist doing less than 50 can't push their prices higher just because they're rarer and artist who have done a good job are worth a lot of money despite there being a lot of sketches done (e.g. Nar in Marvel Masterpieces, Hetrick in MU etc). No one is going to pay a premium for a normal sketch card which is more or the less the same as the thousands of sketches we've had access to over the last releases (e.g. a Cooney is a $20 sketch regardless of the set).

There will be exceptions of course, if you pull a Nar, Jusko, Acar or any of the most desirable/expensive artists you're going to be able to demand even higher prices than normal and there are collectors prepared to pay them (Acar in MU was a pretty good example of this).

Another example to reinforce this point, sketches were 1:1.5 cases for KSW and it didn't improve the prices of the few sketches that did surface (or at least people weren't prepared to pay them).

quote:
Originally posted by Tattoox:
IMO, it's ridiculous to pay more for an autograph or sketch just because it has a logo on it and/or came from a rarer release.


Aren't you just ruling yourself out from most sets by saying this? More power to you but you must understand the bulk of people collecting don't agree.
 
Posts: 121 | Location: London | Registered: July 12, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of Elaine Perna
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quote:
Originally posted by Tattoox:
This is the way I look at it.

I'm only interested in one inexpensive sketch card from every series that I collect. Other than that, I collect for the art.

So typically I can get a sketch card from Artist X for a third of what I'd pay for an AP, and about half what I'd find on Ebay. And usually I can get an 8X10 or larger for $10-20 more.

And this is how I broke down an average pack by what I last heard from UD.

2 base cards
1 sketch card
1 of 3 premium chase cards
1, 2, or 3 hinged, double sided sketch

That tells me, on average, you'd get the equivalent of 6 sketch cards worth of sketching.

Based on that, I came up with what I would be willing to pay for this pack.

$5 for two base
$20+ for a sketch
$20 for a chase
$120 for a 3 hinge

$165+ and I'm cheap. I see most sketches going in the $40+ region, so I don't think $200 is far fetch.

I'm not going to buy a creased piece of artwork. So buying a pack is way too much of a gamble that I'll pull a top named artist and/or a quality sketch that justifies this price tag. A hinged sketch might surprise me, but again, it's not worth the risk.

This is like two days worth of over-time above and beyond the OT I already work for cards and busts/statues. I can't keep up as it is.

I think I'll go to a convention soon and get a "jam" piece for about $100 and two or three 8X10 for another $100 and get what I want and be way ahead of the game.

I think this one I got my wife was either $70 or $140.



Artists Proofs usually cost more than a "regular" sketch that you can get from an artist because artists usually charge more for them to try to break even for their time & low pay they get for doing sketch cards for these companies. So, if you are just trying to get art and don't care if the back of the art stock is from an actual company, then just go ahead and commission from the artist directly. Some people don't mind paying for Artist Proofs (but not everyone). Different tastes for different people.

Hopefully the prices of the Marvel Premium packs will go down in the aftermarket. You can always wait until someone busts opens the packs and sell the regular sized sketch cards in the aftermarket as well. I'm sure you will be able to get a nice sketch card that you like for a fraction of the cost of the packs.

My only concern is being a completist of a certain character. Everyone knows that I love the character Rogue and I try to collect every printed trading card with her on it. Making base sets & chase sets (E-Motion cards) this rare will be very costly for me. Making being a completist that much harder (and way more expensive than I can afford). I thought it was bad trying to get one of the Marvel Beginnings 2 Rogue hologram cards (that are selling for around $80.00). It looks like my collection will have some gaps after all.
 
Posts: 2361 | Location: Ontario, Canada | Registered: September 20, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of Tattoox
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by DeathStorm:


quote:
Originally posted by Tattoox:
IMO, it's ridiculous to pay more for an autograph or sketch just because it has a logo on it and/or came from a rarer release.


Aren't you just ruling yourself out from most sets by saying this? More power to you but you must understand the bulk of people collecting don't agree.


Nope.

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Posts: 1619 | Location: Oregon | Registered: August 25, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Tattoox:
Nope.


You've just made several posts where you say it's crazy to pay more for an official autograph/sketch and when most sets revolve around those sketches/autographs, don't you see the contradiction?
 
Posts: 121 | Location: London | Registered: July 12, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of igman7
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by clearblue:
I just don't think you can compare commission art with pack pulled cards.

It's like saying an in-person autograph is as valuable as a pack pulled one.


100% Correct

quote:

With high-end cards, the value of the inserts/hits should, in theory, be more valuable because they are harder to obtain and because fewer people can afford to open the product and because the risk is much higher.


Yes, that is the theory, but it does not mean that the results will bear that out.

quote:
It's like sports cards; a rookie card #/99 from a $500 pack is probably 10x more valuable than a rookie card also #/99 from a $100 box.


Not comparable as the only RC's that would get you close to that kind of multiplier are UD Exquisite which has a long heritage of being THE high end product. Other expensive packs (National Treasures) simply fail to bring in large premiums.

quote:

The argument that i'm hearing from a lot of people is that the sketch from Marvel Premier is the same value as the one pulled from some other cheaper product. That really isn't the case because to obtain the card has a higher risk and cost to it.

There will certainly be a higher return on the contents but not necessarily enough to cover the cost.

quote:

I certainly wouldn't value a sketch from a $200 pack the same as a $30-50 product even if the artist was the same, assuming that the odds were similar.

Not that I expect him to be contributing any art in Marvel Premier, but for the sake of an example, imagine pulling a Stan Lee sketch. I don't think you would value it at $500 like the Avengers sketches floating around. The price tag on it would be much higher (I hope).


Do you really think that someone will pay more for the same quality of art just because the pack/box costs more? How did that work out for the folks who invested heavily in Sketchlords? Again, that is not comparable as this is Marvel that we are talking about and not original charachters.

Additionally, who is to say that people are going to like these multi-panel pieces with art on the back? How are they going to store/show off these?

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Feeling happy? Then rip open a box. Feeling blue...then rip 2!
 
Posts: 1492 | Location: Tinley Park, Illinois, USA | Registered: May 31, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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Picture of igman7
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Tattoox:
This is the way I look at it.

2 base cards
1 sketch card
1 of 3 premium chase cards
1, 2, or 3 hinged, double sided sketch

That tells me, on average, you'd get the equivalent of 6 sketch cards worth of sketching.

Based on that, I came up with what I would be willing to pay for this pack.

$5 for two base
$20+ for a sketch
$20 for a chase
$120 for a 3 hinge

$165+ and I'm cheap. I see most sketches going in the $40+ region, so I don't think $200 is far fetch.


IMO you are way off on theese prices. I would take a conservative guess as such:

Base cards $20-$50ea (popular charachters will sell way over commons)
Sketch average $40
Insert average $25
Hinge sketch $70

Of course, the sketches could be $20 or $700 depending on luck of the draw.

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Feeling happy? Then rip open a box. Feeling blue...then rip 2!
 
Posts: 1492 | Location: Tinley Park, Illinois, USA | Registered: May 31, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of Tattoox
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by igman7:
quote:
Originally posted by Tattoox:
This is the way I look at it.

2 base cards
1 sketch card
1 of 3 premium chase cards
1, 2, or 3 hinged, double sided sketch

That tells me, on average, you'd get the equivalent of 6 sketch cards worth of sketching.

Based on that, I came up with what I would be willing to pay for this pack.

$5 for two base
$20+ for a sketch
$20 for a chase
$120 for a 3 hinge

$165+ and I'm cheap. I see most sketches going in the $40+ region, so I don't think $200 is far fetch.


IMO you are way off on theese prices. I would take a conservative guess as such:

Base cards $20-$50ea (popular charachters will sell way over commons)
Sketch average $40
Insert average $25
Hinge sketch $70

Of course, the sketches could be $20 or $700 depending on luck of the draw.



You missed my point Iggy. I don't pay high end prices. These are what I would pay. What I think the minimum price would be.

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Posts: 1619 | Location: Oregon | Registered: August 25, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of Tattoox
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by DeathStorm:
quote:
Originally posted by Tattoox:
Nope.


You've just made several posts where you say it's crazy to pay more for an official autograph/sketch and when most sets revolve around those sketches/autographs, don't you see the contradiction?


I guess I don't understand the point you're trying to make.

I don't care that autographs and sketches are what set revolve around.

I take that back. I do. The frenzy to get these cards have allowed me to collect the other chase cards and base sets for a fraction of what they were going for in the 90's.

It's not all about the cards for me. It's about the experience. Not going into that any deeper, again.

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Posts: 1619 | Location: Oregon | Registered: August 25, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of Raven
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by igman7:

Do you really think that someone will pay more for the same quality of art just because the pack/box costs more? How did that work out for the folks who invested heavily in Sketchlords?

Additionally, who is to say that people are going to like these multi-panel pieces with art on the back? How are they going to store/show off these?


I absolutely agree with you. I judge a sketch by its quality first, the characters second, and the artist name third. As long as its from an official product, my own inner assessment of the worth of a sketch guides me. If I think its a $50 sketch and it came out of a $4 pack, its a $50 sketch. If I think its a $50 sketch and it came out of a $200 pack, its still a $50 sketch. Big Grin
 
Posts: 10515 | Location: New York | Registered: November 20, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Tattoox:
I take that back. I do. The frenzy to get these cards have allowed me to collect the other chase cards and base sets for a fraction of what they were going for in the 90's.

It's not all about the cards for me. It's about the experience. Not going into that any deeper, again.


The point I'm trying to get across is because you have no interest in the official sketches/autographs (the big hits of any modern set) there's no real way for any company to cater to your tastes.

There's nothing wrong with that but there's also no way to please you when making these sets, your concern should probably be geared towards what will make those sets desirable to the other collectors paying for it otherwise you won't get your throwaway sets but clearly this isn't a set for you.
 
Posts: 121 | Location: London | Registered: July 12, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of EriktheArchitect
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$200 for 2 cards. Not with my money!

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Posts: 1162 | Location: Just NW of Hazzard County Georgia USA | Registered: December 08, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of Tattoox
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by DeathStorm:
quote:
Originally posted by Tattoox:
I take that back. I do. The frenzy to get these cards have allowed me to collect the other chase cards and base sets for a fraction of what they were going for in the 90's.

It's not all about the cards for me. It's about the experience. Not going into that any deeper, again.


The point I'm trying to get across is because you have no interest in the official sketches/autographs (the big hits of any modern set) there's no real way for any company to cater to your tastes.

There's nothing wrong with that but there's also no way to please you when making these sets, your concern should probably be geared towards what will make those sets desirable to the other collectors paying for it otherwise you won't get your throwaway sets but clearly this isn't a set for you.


I've never said I have no interest. I think I've offended you, and now you're focusing on what's negative to your views. I said I collect at least one for every series that I'm interested in. You must not have seen my thread of my "official sketch cards." You totally missed alot of my points, so it's pointless for me to continue in this thread.

Since card companies do make me happy. I wouldn't be collecting if they didn't. I still collect, even though I don't like recycled art, but can see a positive aspect of it. Same with sketches.

What I'm growing weary of is you making statements to me saying "YOU" must and such.

Time we both let this just drop.

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Posts: 1619 | Location: Oregon | Registered: August 25, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of Tattoox
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Raven:
quote:
Originally posted by igman7:

Do you really think that someone will pay more for the same quality of art just because the pack/box costs more? How did that work out for the folks who invested heavily in Sketchlords?

Additionally, who is to say that people are going to like these multi-panel pieces with art on the back? How are they going to store/show off these?


I absolutely agree with you. I judge a sketch by its quality first, the characters second, and the artist name third. As long as its from an official product, my own inner assessment of the worth of a sketch guides me. If I think its a $50 sketch and it came out of a $4 pack, its a $50 sketch. If I think its a $50 sketch and it came out of a $200 pack, its still a $50 sketch. Big Grin


I totally agree about the price thing.

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Posts: 1619 | Location: Oregon | Registered: August 25, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of Tattoox
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by igman7:
quote:
Originally posted by Tattoox:
This is the way I look at it.

2 base cards
1 sketch card
1 of 3 premium chase cards
1, 2, or 3 hinged, double sided sketch

That tells me, on average, you'd get the equivalent of 6 sketch cards worth of sketching.

Based on that, I came up with what I would be willing to pay for this pack.

$5 for two base
$20+ for a sketch
$20 for a chase
$120 for a 3 hinge

$165+ and I'm cheap. I see most sketches going in the $40+ region, so I don't think $200 is far fetch.


IMO you are way off on theese prices. I would take a conservative guess as such:

Base cards $20-$50ea (popular charachters will sell way over commons)
Sketch average $40
Insert average $25
Hinge sketch $70

Of course, the sketches could be $20 or $700 depending on luck of the draw.


I've thought about this for awhile now, and I don't see how a base card that is 2 per pack is approximately equal value as an Insert card that's only one per pack.

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Posts: 1619 | Location: Oregon | Registered: August 25, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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