quote:

Originally posted by Graham:

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Originally posted by <<<<ALDO_NOVA>>>>:
Was looking at getting a box, but it's a bit pricey, plus the added cost for shipping makes it a bit too much!

Not so much pricey, but sadly, the standard

Cryptozoic is actually running a few bucks less than RA and Upper Deck and premium TOPPS right now. Even with discounts off SRP, big title products are going over $100 a box where I am. I saw Black Panther at $120 yesterday. It stayed there. UD doesn't even guarantee an autograph card and that is my main interest.

Simple fact is the price of a box of cards is getting expensive especially when you have an exchange rate and shipping to factor in as well, that $85 becomes $100 when translated into £'S

Boxes from all manufacturers have been too expensive versus the average contents for a long time. Never mind the chance of pulling the top hits, the chance of even pulling the box price in card value is too low.

I haven't bought a box of anything since the first Sons of Anarchy set (with the exception of Breygent's 8-hit mini boxes for Bates Motel season 1). That set is now, almost to the day, 4 years old.

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Originally posted by ravenheart:
Boxes from all manufacturers have been too expensive versus the average contents for a long time.

I agree and this has been said over and over by many members here. What has been the response from manufacturers?

Box contents have been reduced to create lower production and hopefully greater demand. Oh, but the box prices have been increased. So now you are getting less, but still paying more. And there is a decrease in demand because many potential buyers don't even see the point in starting products that require multiple boxes to make just the base set. So the whole thing is just going in the wrong direction, yet each premium set is digging a deeper hole than the last one.

I'm not trying to be overly alarmist, I'm just following the thing to its logical conclusion. Who is going to open these boxes when the content value averages such a deficit? Somebody has to open them to put individual cards on the secondary markets. Collectors don't want to, they are getting burned too much. Dealers won't want to once the case incentives don't cover the short falls. Trading cards for the masses are going to all be retail soon and hobby will be reserved for that so-called "advanced collector". I just love that term.

There's no way that I'm really willing to invest in a release when boxes are priced above $100. Especially, since I live in Europe and the increased shipping costs with the realistic chance of having to add import costs add quite a bit.
I'll stick to buying single autographs of this Supergirl set once it's out on the market.

From the manufacturer's POV, I guess they're having a hard time figuring out a response to a declining market. Less buyers means that the average production cost per box increases. With the arrival of autographs and sketches and propcards and whatnot, we've all grown to want every new set to be up to par with the previous one. I can understand that this is a difficult balance for the manufacturer to keep. So, the price goes up to cater to the collectors left.
Or would we be content with an "old-school" set that has no premium content besides some rarer subsets along the base cards? Surely, that could make prices drop. Or have we all grown to accustomed to the non-sports market turning into an autograph market? (I'm guilty too)

quote:

Originally posted by monkeyafterdark:
Or would we be content with an "old-school" set that has no premium content besides some rarer subsets along the base cards? Surely, that could make prices drop. Or have we all grown to accustomed to the non-sports market turning into an autograph market? (I'm guilty too)

Definitely not. I don't think anyone would buy a set with no premium content anymore.

I know some people still like them, but personally I wouldn't care at all if base sets just disappeared. Have a few subsets by all means - although not the ridiculous huge ones Rittenhouse seem to favour at the moment - for a bit of variation, but card after card of boring stills just isn't interesting.

I haven't binned all of my base sets from over the years, but I have removed them all from my binders and put them in boxes. I just don't look at them. Ever.

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Originally posted by ravenheart:
I don't think anyone would buy a set with no premium content anymore.

They have and they still do. If they like the title/subject and if the title/subject has not been thoroughly covered and especially if the box/set cost reflects the value of the contents. There are quite a few smaller publishers now that are putting out very targeted sets and they have card collectors willing to buy them simply for the cards and maybe some sketch that gets thrown in.

You know what I can't buy? I can't buy an Upper Deck box for $120 and better that doesn't even guarantee the type of premium hit I will pull. An autograph, a sketch, a manufactured relic, maybe all costumes, who knows? I can't buy a box from anybody that has so many insert and parallel cards that I am left holding 60% of a base set.

Its not about premium hits, its about getting value for what you paid. If you buy cheap cards that you like for a cheap price, that's value. Expensive cards need to provide compensating value, and for all the bells and whistles, the price vs. value gap keeps getting wider for the average box. Not the exceptional box, but the average box, which is what you are most likely to be getting.

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Originally posted by ravenheart:
I haven't binned all of my base sets from over the years, but I have removed them all from my binders and put them in boxes. I just don't look at them. Ever.

This quote struck me, I'm not sure why, but it immediately dawned on me -- There really isn't much incentive to look at a base set anymore. . . In the pre-internet days you could look at a set to bring you back to a moment in the show/movie that you liked. . . but now all of that content is online. . .

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Originally posted by webjon:

quote:

Originally posted by ravenheart:
I haven't binned all of my base sets from over the years, but I have removed them all from my binders and put them in boxes. I just don't look at them. Ever.

This quote struck me, I'm not sure why, but it immediately dawned on me -- There really isn't much incentive to look at a base set anymore. . . In the pre-internet days you could look at a set to bring you back to a moment in the show/movie that you liked. . . but now all of that content is online. . .

This is exactly the modern problem.

In 1977 you didn't know if you would ever see Star Wars again, and if so it was cut up on television with poor resolution and commercials.

In the modern world if someone wants to relive a favorite movie or episode, they can get the disc or stream it in most cases. No need for cards as a memory device.

And this is what stumps me sometimes at shows when people ask "What do you do with them?". I don't have a good answer anymore. If you don't already collect (and thus KNOW what to do with them) there isn't a lot of motivation to have cards. People think games or even playing cards are more purposeful than trading cards now days.

Ed

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Originally posted by Scifi Cards:

And this is what stumps me sometimes at shows when people ask "What do you do with them?". I don't have a good answer anymore. If you don't already collect (and thus KNOW what to do with them) there isn't a lot of motivation to have cards. People think games or even playing cards are more purposeful than trading cards now days.

It seems like this is the problem that manufacturers need to address if they want to rekindle interest in base sets. . .

The current design seems to be a straight up recap of a show/movie with stills -- maybe that's all that is allowed with the licensing -- but that is also what I go to Wikipedia or IMDB for . . . if they could make the cards different than the show -- either with new content -- perhaps like pop up video, or a humorous take -- like MST3K, but with GPKs commenting on the show or something like that it could make a difference. . .

I think you guys are starting to over think this.

Its fine to question the need for base sets, but I would rather question the need for parallel sets. If you can make the same set, with the same photos, look better with foil or numbering or shiny effects, why can't that be the one and only version? Why have a plain looking base set at all?

As for collecting anything in the digital age, that falls back to the collector mentality that anybody bothering to read this forum has at least a little of, some way too much.

I like to own things. I like things in my hand. Trying to think of a rational reason to collect trading cards is no different that trying to explain why people collect stamps, or coins, or comics, or rocks, or DVDs, or books, or bottle caps, or beer bottles, or ceramic green frogs, or a hundred other things you could name, priceless and/or worthless. While I think that some people are nuts for collecting certain things, I can still understand why they do it. They find enjoyment in the pursuit and in the idea of having something they appreciate building. As long as they don't cross the hoarder line, they are good.

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Originally posted by Raven:

Its fine to question the need for base sets, but I would rather question the need for parallel sets. If you can make the same set, with the same photos, look better with foil or numbering or shiny effects, why can't that be the one and only version? Why have a plain looking base set at all?

There are plenty of sets where the cards are shiny or foil or otherwise fancy and there is still very little demand for collectors for these sets.

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Originally posted by webjon:

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Originally posted by Raven:

Its fine to question the need for base sets, but I would rather question the need for parallel sets. If you can make the same set, with the same photos, look better with foil or numbering or shiny effects, why can't that be the one and only version? Why have a plain looking base set at all?

There are plenty of sets where the cards are shiny or foil or otherwise fancy and there is still very little demand for collectors for these sets.

So this conversation belongs in another thread, but since it started here, I have to ask you here. If you believe base sets shouldn't be made because no one wants them and you believe that parallel cards of base sets shouldn't be made because there is still little collector demand, what do you think should be in packs and boxes?

Are you advocating that 1 pack of 3 - 5 premium hits make up a $100 box? Are you saying that it should be 2 autographs and a 9 card insert set sold as a $400 "set" like RA's Buffy? Should we forego boxes and cases altogether and just have publishers produce and sell single hits directly to customers? Or should we give up anything real and just collect photos of cards on our PCs and in the cloud and consider that a card collection?

I know you were really interested in autographed cards at one time. I still regard certified autograph cards as my main interest, but there are titles I collect also. You can't have digital autograph cards. Facsimile signatures are not real signatures. Lots of people don't see the sense in collecting autographs at all, so pictures of autographs seem fine. I collect authentic autographs, pictures are worthless.

For those card titles I do follow, I do want a complete product that has a base set. My general feeling is that most title driven card collectors want them too. However that doesn't mean they will spend stupid money on them and that is the problem with parallel base cards and why they are not wanted when you can get a cheap base set.

So getting back to my question, what are you proposing that a hobby box of cards should contain to spark the kind of collector demand you want?

I was responding directly to your comment about making cards foil or shinier and indicated that there were many sets that are foil and shiny and still are not collected -- i.e. shininess does not a collectible make. I didn't have any further intention to my comment, I didn't imply any other conclusions.

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Originally posted by Raven:
So getting back to my question, what are you proposing that a hobby box of cards should contain to spark the kind of collector demand you want?

I think unique content could make base cards more relevant, see 2 posts previous:

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Originally posted by webjon:
The current design seems to be a straight up recap of a show/movie with stills -- maybe that's all that is allowed with the licensing -- but that is also what I go to Wikipedia or IMDB for . . . if they could make the cards different than the show -- either with new content -- perhaps like pop up video, or a humorous take -- like MST3K, but with GPKs commenting on the show or something like that it could make a difference. . .

quote:

Originally posted by webjon:
I think unique content could make base cards more relevant, see 2 posts previous:

quote:

Originally posted by webjon:
The current design seems to be a straight up recap of a show/movie with stills -- maybe that's all that is allowed with the licensing -- but that is also what I go to Wikipedia or IMDB for . . . if they could make the cards different than the show -- either with new content -- perhaps like pop up video, or a humorous take -- like MST3K, but with GPKs commenting on the show or something like that it could make a difference. . .

Yes I read that post, and there is nothing wrong with thinking outside the box, but with such restrictive licensing you know some things will never happen. To me it all comes down to a matter of cost now. Decreasing the supply does nothing unless it increases the demand and just about every substantial card collector has cut back on what they buy and is taking short cuts on what they still buy. Personally I think it all started going off for non-sport when card manufacturers openly distained the "average" collector and began designing product for the "advanced" collector. Box buyers vs. case buyers. There were a lot of average buyers who were purchasing a lot of mixed product and now they have retreated due to the cost and the value received.

If you want to know where all the demand went, I really think its as simple as that.

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Originally posted by Raven:

Yes I read that post, and there is nothing wrong with thinking outside the box, but with such restrictive licensing you know some things will never happen. To me it all comes down to a matter of cost now. Decreasing the supply does nothing unless it increases the demand and just about every substantial card collector has cut back on what they buy and is taking short cuts on what they still buy. Personally I think it all started going off for non-sport when card manufacturers openly distained the "average" collector and began designing product for the "advanced" collector. Box buyers vs. case buyers. There were a lot of average buyers who were purchasing a lot of mixed product and now they have retreated due to the cost and the value received.

If you want to know where all the demand went, I really think its as simple as that.

That's a perfectly valid opinion on why things have changed.

But what would you suggest needs to happen in order to bring more demand to base sets?

Oh if only we ran a card company. But then again when it comes to cost there are many things we are not privy to, so the devil is always in the details.

I would get rid of parallel cards and enhance the regular base cards as a starter. I would add on that foil or that gold number. I would look for at least a 90 card base that adequately covers the subject in a single box. If you go to a larger base set or you are running a large concurrent insert set or sets, no more than 2 boxes to complete them all. Yes you can have other insert cards that are only a couple in a box to pursue, but a collector has to be able to complete something in a 2 box maximum.

Base sets are common cards. You can entice collectors to bust more boxes if the boxes are cheaper and there are a few decent hits. You can make it more urgent to buy if the supply is lowered. Are you ever going to get a common card base card, out of a set you can make in a single box, worth more than .15 cents? We haven't so far.

I agree with everyone who has realized that there is little demand for even the premium base sets coming from the $120 boxes. But its not so much that demand itself is lacking. Collectors want them, they are just unwilling to pay a few bucks for a common card from any set. They are not working on a sliding scale, most will not bite on $150 base sets and that's that. Neither will I for that matter.

It's price of product. You can't get full value out of every box, but you will take the chance on getting the better hits, as long as what you risk won't break you. When I spent $65 on a box and got an average of $35 it was OK. When I spend $120 on a box and get $50 in cards and don't even have a base set, that's too much to risk with no satisfaction.

Maybe that's not a great answer, but getting more collectors to break boxes again is more than just base card demand. That price vs. value gap has got to narrow and that means limited production and better hits.

How about targeting hits? Card manufacturers are well aware of secondary market value, but choose to regard all hits as the same. They make number guarantees, but not value guarantees. I would be OK with getting only 1 better autograph hit in a box or 3 common autograph hits in a box, as an example. Probably not happening either, but it would make things fairer. One really poor box or case will generally sourer a buyer for a long time and that is what has happened also.

I feel like boxes with at least one base set, foil stamped cards and no parallels have been done before -- a lot, and still there never is, and never has been demand for base sets in this format.

Your discussion about having that in a box to entice box buyers doesn't address how to get people interested in base cards/sets. . . or further, how does a dealer answer a question to a person at a convention who says "What do you do with them?"

What sort of convention are you talking about and who is asking the question? Why do any type of collectors collect anything? If you don't have the feeling for it, you don't, and no one is going to convince you that you should.

I would say, you collect non-sport trading cards if you have an interest in the subject, to read the text, to learn more about the subject, to look at the pictures and have something in your hand that you can keep and personalize into something that reflects your interest. If that's too pretentious, you could just say they look cool lined up all together in binders.

If you don't know what to do with cards, you have not found the right hobby for you.

quote:

Originally posted by Raven:
What sort of convention are you talking about and who is asking the question? Why do any type of collectors collect anything? If you don't have the feeling for it, you don't, and no one is going to convince you that you should.

I think my perspective is different -- not card collectors should want cards because card collectors collect cards, but fans of a show/movie/theme/whatever should want to buy cards of that topic because they love the topic -- if you can't sell to those fans then there is a product problem.

The base set, really should be the gateway for fans to get introduced to card collecting. . . but if the base set isn't compelling because it's a rehash of a show they already know with content they can easily find a thousand places on the internet then ...

Think of Funko pops -- certainly there are Pop collectors, but there are also huge numbers of people who don't collect Pops, but have Pops of their favorite show/movie/character.