quote:

Originally posted by wolfie:

quote:

Originally posted by X:

I don't get why collectors slam manufacturers for making more cards of great signers.

well I guess if I had paid £500 for an autograph card and then the manufacturer released another 5 versions and the market price of mine dropped to £100 because of it I might complain a bit.

Only if you're buying as an investment.


I'm excited about all these new Star Wars sets! I won't buy them all, but I still appreciate that they will exist and I'll pick up specific cards from them that I like.

I hear what you are saying Ted but I can't see how you can spend £500 on a card and not view it as some sort of investment even if that is not your primary reason for wanting it.

quote:

Originally posted by Ted Dastick Jr.:

quote:

Originally posted by wolfie:

quote:

Originally posted by X:

I don't get why collectors slam manufacturers for making more cards of great signers.

well I guess if I had paid £500 for an autograph card and then the manufacturer released another 5 versions and the market price of mine dropped to £100 because of it I might complain a bit.

Only if you're buying as an investment.


I'm excited about all these new Star Wars sets! I won't buy them all, but I still appreciate that they will exist and I'll pick up specific cards from them that I like.

Well I think it's a bit more then just the investing aspect, which I honestly don't see all that much talk about anymore. Maybe people have gotten wiser.

Anyway, it does hurt to see card values drop on expensive stuff you have already bought. Even if you have no intention of selling and even if investment never entered into it, you can't say that it's not human nature to be upset when you think "I could get the same thing for a lot cheaper now". But even beyond that, because I personally never buy any $500 cards myself, there is the matter of box prices.

Allow me to explain. X talks about the Craig autograph card in Bond, so I'll use that as my example. When the first signature appeared in product 4 years ago he says it went for around 300 pounds. Now that Craig has signed repeatedly, his new autograph card can be had for just over a third of that, again according to X. So if you pull what is, arguably one of the best autographs in the product, you are getting an autograph that is worth about 1/3 of its previous value, but the box price has not gone down in a similar fashion. Box prices for RA, and every other card manufacturer only go up, while the increasing supply of repeated autographs is driving those individual values downward on both big and small names alike.

I'm not at all against increasing the supply, maybe some day I'll be able afford a Brosnan, but it is a cause and effect thing. If individual card prices on good cards are dropping, box and case prices should drop also, and they are not. They are being kept high, and even raising for high end product, due to artifically limiting production on a variety of different titles that are often essentially the same thing, such as in the Star Wars and Bond universes where autographs are being repeated.

It's a slippery slope. Box prices present too much of a risk for the value inside. If the smart collector turns only to the secondary market for cards, will dealers make enough on the breaks to continue bulk buying the cases? Just thoughts to ponder.

quote:

Originally posted by wolfie:
I hear what you are saying Ted but I can't see how you can spend £500 on a card and not view it as some sort of investment even if that is not your primary reason for wanting it.

If I'm investing in my personal satisfaction, I still don't see a problem. If I'm going to spend $500 on a card (which I never have and never will), I'm going to be beyond-sure that I want it. A lot of times people say that things are worth "whatever someone is willing to pay," and I think it works the same way for the buyer. At some point that card was worth $500 to you, if down the road you feel that wasn't a wise spend, well, I don't know what to say. It's tough to have buyer's remorse on something you wanted so dearly in the first place.

It's like paying top dollar for that hot new electronic item that you know will be selling for half once the next version comes out. In the realm of cards, there may never be another card from the same signer, but at the end of the day if a new one comes out, it's still not the same exact card.

I think the jury's still out on a lot of this since a single non-sports card worth $500 (and certainly any modern non-sports card worth that much straight from the pack) is still a relatively new phenomenon.

quote:

Originally posted by chesspieceface:
I think the jury's still out on a lot of this since a single non-sports card worth $500 (and certainly any modern non-sports card worth that much straight from the pack) is still a relatively new phenomenon.

I would agree that it is a fairly new phenomenon for non-sport cards, but it does seem to me that 95% (my own guess) of the most expensive cards released in the last few years arrived at their peak prices straight out of the pack. If they remained in demand they have held those peak prices, but most have just leveled off in value or took steep drops. That's because they were overvalued and had no room to grow once the initial demand was met and/or the supply may have increased with similar cards in following products.

The individual cards and sets that did increase above their first offerings were the sleepers that were either underestimated at release or had something happen that made the demand jump at a later date, like an unknown actor becoming suddenly popular or a title taking off.

Absolutely, the vast majority of the "money" cards from new releases are at their peak when they are newly issued. The Games of Thrones Series 1 autographs are something of an exception for modern issues, in that way. A lot of those have accrued over the pack price, especially the cards of Dany (Emilia Clarke) and Drogo (Jason Momoa). There's definitely a premium on those that wasn't there when they were new. I think the Iron Man 1 autographs from Rittenhouse have also become more "important" as the Marvel cinematic universe has expanded, which has reflected positively on the value of the cards, the Robert Downey certainly, but also the Agent Coulson (Clark Gregg) card in that set. At the time of that film, the character was a bit part in a movie whose success was no means assured in the lead up to its release.

By the "Avengers" movie however, the character had popped up in many of the films leading up to it, and played an important role in it. Beyond that, Coulson is now, of course, the star of "Agents of SHIELD" on TV. The result is the card was $10 or less for the first few years of its existence, but lately sells in the $40 to $60 range. This would be a rarity I would think. A common autograph becoming a "semistar" or even a "star" autograph due to an increase of the popularity of the same character over the years.

Going back some, some of the standout cards of the 1990's are worth significantly more now than around the time of issue, but I'd still say that's not the norm. Perhaps Raven's seemingly astute 95% estimate of peak value on initial release drops to about 80% on older cards.

These include the Art D'Bart sketch from Skybox Simpsons 1, the Sketch cards from Marvel Silver Age and 1997 Spider-Man Ultra, the Mirage cards from Marvel Masterpieces 1995, to name a few. None of those were necessarily "cheap" when newly issued, but they all would've been terrific investments in terms of what they cost back then against what they could be sold for now.

quote:

Originally posted by wolfie:

quote:

Originally posted by X:

I don't get why collectors slam manufacturers for making more cards of great signers.

well I guess if I had paid £500 for an autograph card and then the manufacturer released another 5 versions and the market price of mine dropped to £100 because of it I might complain a bit.

That's a good point, and not one I had thought of. I suppose I am that expectant of repeats for the titles I'm familiar with that it pays to be a savvy collector and that someone new to the hobby might get caught out.

That said, I agree with Ted's comments, particularly the idea of "investing in your own personal satisfaction". Whether a card is $50 or $500, the buyer would hopefully be parting with the money because it was worth it to them, especially with really expensive cards, so how upset can you be if prices went down if you REALLY wanted the card in the first place?

Let's face it, things like collectible cards are prone to massive price fluctuations and I doubt any collector complains when they're card goes up in value.

Whether I pay £10 or £100 for an autograph card, I only spend what I feel is appropriate for that signer/particular card, assuming I can afford it of course! If a card can't be found for the price I think its worth (to me), I sit it out and wait. I have very few purchasing regrets based on price, and those slight regrets I have came from maybe jumping in too early and overpaying a few quid. But that's my fault and my impatience, and I have missed some bargains by waiting for cards to go cheaper only to find supply dries up and they end up being more expensive.

quote:

Originally posted by Raven:
Well I think it's a bit more then just the investing aspect, which I honestly don't see all that much talk about anymore. Maybe people have gotten wiser.

Anyway, it does hurt to see card values drop on expensive stuff you have already bought. Even if you have no intention of selling and even if investment never entered into it, you can't say that it's not human nature to be upset when you think "I could get the same thing for a lot cheaper now". But even beyond that, because I personally never buy any $500 cards myself, there is the matter of box prices.

Allow me to explain. X talks about the Craig autograph card in Bond, so I'll use that as my example. When the first signature appeared in product 4 years ago he says it went for around 300 pounds. Now that Craig has signed repeatedly, his new autograph card can be had for just over a third of that, again according to X. So if you pull what is, arguably one of the best autographs in the product, you are getting an autograph that is worth about 1/3 of its previous value, but the box price has not gone down in a similar fashion. Box prices for RA, and every other card manufacturer only go up, while the increasing supply of repeated autographs is driving those individual values downward on both big and small names alike.

I'm not at all against increasing the supply, maybe some day I'll be able afford a Brosnan, but it is a cause and effect thing. If individual card prices on good cards are dropping, box and case prices should drop also, and they are not. They are being kept high, and even raising for high end product, due to artifically limiting production on a variety of different titles that are often essentially the same thing, such as in the Star Wars and Bond universes where autographs are being repeated.

It's a slippery slope. Box prices present too much of a risk for the value inside. If the smart collector turns only to the secondary market for cards, will dealers make enough on the breaks to continue bulk buying the cases? Just thoughts to ponder.

But are we oversimplifying the whole idea of repeats? What I mean by that is that each card is a unique collectible in itself (as any completest will tell you) and whilst I know collector's such as yourself Raven see the true value in the signature, to many collectors a SKYBOX Shatner or Nimoy auto, for example, is infinitely more desirable than latest version from RA.

Many cards from particular signers all seem to be as rare as each other but the first card(s) issued for them always seem to hold a premium. So even if a new auto card from a repeat signer can be had for much less than the original/first cards they did, these newer cards don't take anything away from the older and often scarcer cards.

I don't agree that box prices should go down just because repeat signers fetch less on the secondary market than their cards did previously, because no manufacturer guarantees the value of their cards - that is for the public to decide. So long as the manufacturer offers a good spread of hits and overall value across a product, the box prices can be literally whatever. Much like paying for single cards, a sealed product needs to be 'worth it' to the buyer.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: X,

Are there updates on this ?

SW Episode II 3D is August ?

SW Chrome is now Sept ?


What is after that ?

I think the Jedi vs Sith Chrome release is out in August.
Journey to the Force Awakens will be out on September 4th as part of "Force Friday".

Journey to the Force Awakens is a Heritage set featuring the first six movies, select images from the new movie and more.

Look for a proper Force Unleashed set to hit after the movie comes out.

I see that SW The Force Awakens is coming Sept 4

So when are the SW Chrome set and the Episode II 3-D coming ? I thought they were supposed to be out in August

Are either out yet ?

I am confused

Is the Journey to the Force Awakens coming on Sept 4 the Chrome set, or something else ?

The "regular" Episode 7 set seems to be
coming in December

Chrome Perspectives is next week.
3D Widevision set is next week.
Journey to Force Awakens in September.
Force Awakens Series 1 in December.

At least that's how the plans currently stand.

Thanks. And which are the ones with the Target exclusive cards ?

quote:

Originally posted by Tommy C:
Thanks. And which are the ones with the Target exclusive cards ?

Journey to the Force Awakens should have the Target Exclusive set.

Theres 9 autos in the Topps.com 3D set. Images are on the Topps facebook page.

ROTS 3D WV is up for sale at the Topps site. I just placed my order! $99.99 + shipping.

i bought 6 boxes. 10 max per household but i would think that can be easily sidestepped away by savy buyers

Ordered 2 looks like a nice set!