^^^^ But let's just pretend we're a sketch artist right? We do all these nice sketches for RA, spend tons of time on them, making sure it's perfect... and then boom, half or more of your beautiful art is shredded and destroyed. If I was one of those artists I would be pretty angry as well.

I think it was Javier Gonzalez who said no to the company when they asked him to sketch more out for the second series. Anyone pulling one of his cards from a series 2 sketch pack is still pulling a sketch that was originally intended for the first release, basically. I also know from at least one other artist who returned to work on series two, it was because they knew there would be a big payday for themselves with the AR cards.

But I was just starting to really think about the artwork itself. It's crazy that none of these sketch artists were even affiliated with the show when it was in production. Another series of sketch cards I can think of is Family Guy where the animators from the series are the ones who drew the sketch cards for Leaf back in 2011. To me, that is almost "worth" more because they are the ones who actually draw for the show... it's as real as it can get. Although obviously those cards are nowhere near as rare as these. I guess basically it's not the actual art that's being priced, it's how rare or common the availability of it is.

quote:

Originally posted by BornToBeAPopstar:
I guess basically it's not the actual art that's being priced, it's how rare or common the availability of it is.

To a certain extent, its hard to make a simple declarative statement when you are talking about licensed sketch art because there are so many different factors coming together.

What is the price point of the product? Who is the artist? How many did the artist do? Who is the subject? How many sketches were done of that subject? Is in B/W or color? What does it look like? Yes that last one should be the first consideration, but quality can be the last consideration to some collectors that are fixed on artists and products above mere visual appeal.

This much is true, an artist with a licensed sketch in a high end product can see it sell for a lot more than they would ask for a normal commission. That's why they do these projects beyond just the fees the card maker might pay. They themselves can sell APs and artist returns for good money because they are approved and carrying the official brand name.

And yes, I'm sure the approval process frustrates many of them, but that has become par for the course if you are going to do it.

quote:

Originally posted by Raven:
I'm sure the approval process frustrates many of them, but that has become par for the course if you are going to do it.

I'm glad everyone knows the process now. I think for series 1 it was a little more complicated and unknown. Or if they knew there was an approval process, they didn't anticipate just how brutal it was going to be.

Mailman was Nice Today.....

Kryten, I always enjoy your enthusiasm for the products you are interested in but if that Charles Hall return of Buffy sold at auction (where everyone interested could have a fair crack at winning it) at release, for not even $300 - what makes you think it is worth an extra $1000?

People always talk about values of trading cards and everyone is always quick to say that an overpriced BIN is not as indicative as real-life auctions. Yes, I know auction results vary greatly depending on who is watching and when, and sketch cards like these are all 1/1 so are more 'special' but recent auction results show that generally collectors are not spending what they did on Series 1.

quote:

Originally posted by X:
Kryten, I always enjoy your enthusiasm for the products you are interested in but if that Charles Hall return of Buffy sold at auction (where everyone interested could have a fair crack at winning it) at release, for not even $300 - what makes you think it is worth an extra $1000?

People always talk about values of trading cards and everyone is always quick to say that an overpriced BIN is not as indicative as real-life auctions. Yes, I know auction results vary greatly depending on who is watching and when, and sketch cards like these are all 1/1 so are more 'special' but recent auction results show that generally collectors are not spending what they did on Series 1.

Weird things sometimes happen with auctions. That's why I try very hard to avoid them- both as a seller and a buyer.
I know I have missed great deals on items because the auction ends at a crazy time (like 3am EST) or is forgotten about by me until after it ends, etc.
Plus, for an auction, you really only get at most a 10 day window for people to see it. I have had stretches longer than that where I am either sick in bed, on vacation, doing shows, etc where I would completely miss it. If you miss that one or two people who would make an auction interesting with competing bids, you might be leaving money on the table. It happens.

For example, I have a customer who needs the DM5 dual wardrobe form Ender's Game. He has been looking for it for years. He doesn't do Ebay so asks me continually to see if I could find it for him. I missed this one...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2014-E...rksid=p2047675.l2557

I guarantee if I had seen it, I would have bid up to $200 for it for him. So this seller lost out because I didn't see it. If it was a buy it now, even at $300, I would have offered at least $200. That not withstanding that he might have even gotten $300 from someone. You never know.

All I am saying is that strange things happen. I have seen it many, many times.

Is the sketch worth $200, $2,000 or something in between. We shall see.

quote:

Originally posted by cubby5454:

All I am saying is that strange things happen. I have seen it many, many times.

Is the sketch worth $200, $2,000 or something in between. We shall see.

Good post from the other side of it. I would only argue with the use of the word "worth".

You can't say a sketch is worth anything, not even after it sells. You can only compare it to similar items, in the same or similar products, and arrive at a general range that is still just a guess-a-mate.

That's what happens with the BINs when something first comes out. All the BINs are within $25 of each other because all the sellers are mirroring each other's listing. As time goes on the BINs start to lower, but it is still more or less uniform shifts, up or down.

BINs with BEST Offers attached are even more frustrating because many sellers put that in and don't even consider the offers or respond to them. Then all of a sudden the item is gone. At least that creates a sold listing, which will give you an idea of the market value, once you can establish an average sale value.

But getting back to that word "worth" on 1/1 cards or sketches, I find that to be a strictly personal inner guideline. Just because a few people have enough money to throw four figures at a card does not make that card worth thousands of dollars. People outside of the hobby may be unwilling to give you $10 for it. People inside the hobby have their own standards for pricing. I myself will only go so high on an autograph card I like and then that's it. If it's out of that range, it may sell for that price, but it is not "worth" it to me. It doesn't matter if I can afford it, it is stupid money to throw away.

The reason why some seller's do post up ridiculously overinflated BINs on cards is just in the hopes of finding someone with stupid money. Sometimes they do. It still doesn't make the item worth it and I wish them well.

quote:

Originally posted by X:
Kryten, I always enjoy your enthusiasm for the products you are interested in but if that Charles Hall return of Buffy sold at auction (where everyone interested could have a fair crack at winning it) at release, for not even $300 - what makes you think it is worth an extra $1000?

People always talk about values of trading cards and everyone is always quick to say that an overpriced BIN is not as indicative as real-life auctions. Yes, I know auction results vary greatly depending on who is watching and when, and sketch cards like these are all 1/1 so are more 'special' but recent auction results show that generally collectors are not spending what they did on Series 1.

I Like Hall...& it's Buffy (SMG). Not that Many Buffy Sketches were approved to the Best of my knowledge... I think it was Undervalued & am Very Happy with the Win!

My Pricing, I didn't expect to Win... I thought it would go much higher. I will use Auction for Clearance Items Only. That Being Said, the Auction may not have gotten the views it deserved... see the Original Title "charles hall Buffy Vampire slayer Sketch Card Return" VS. the standard "Buffy Ultimate Collector's Set series 2 Buffy Summers AR Sketch by Charles Hall". Which One will come up in your search?

I've missed some Great sketches because the Title was Vague...My current search is for Buffy Sketch....as some stuff doesn't show up under Buffy Ultimate Collector's Set series 2 Sketch.

I've gotten criticism over my Pricing...My Buffy sketches, Other ARs & Definitely My Susan Oliver Cut Signature were Over Priced.... They Sold.

I have Tons of Stuff that I don't think will EVER Sell.... Ender's Game & some Star Wars products come to Mind. my Huge Profits balance out the Stinkers...which seem to breed like Tribbles.

I am a dealer & a fan.

I won't jump on a show I don't watch or Like...

quote:

Originally posted by Raven:
But getting back to that word "worth" on 1/1 cards or sketches, I find that to be a strictly personal inner guideline. Just because a few people have enough money to throw four figures at a card does not make that card worth thousands of dollars. People outside of the hobby may be unwilling to give you $10 for it. People inside the hobby have their own standards for pricing. I myself will only go so high on an autograph card I like and then that's it. If it's out of that range, it may sell for that price, but it is not "worth" it to me. It doesn't matter if I can afford it, it is stupid money to throw away.

I guess this is the root of the issue- "worth".
"Worth" is a very personal thing. There are very few things in life that different people would agree on the "worth" of.
To me, no painting is "worth" anything over maybe a few hundred dollars, yet you have art collectors willing to pay millions of dollars on a Picasso or a Van Gogh. Not worth it to me.
I have a friend who just spent $85,000 on a Dodge Challenger Hellcat. To him, it is "worth" every penny. To me, while a sweet car, not "worth" even half that amount. I will stick with my 10 year old Dodge Durango.
I get this is a free society and we all have the ability and right to express ourselves, but I think many tend to take how we personally feel and think about things and expect that is the way others should feel and think about them and then publically complain and chide those people about it when they don't. Sort of like what this particular artist did to Kryten.
While a sketch card might not be "worth" what someone might be asking for it in your eyes, it might very well be a bargain in the eyes of the person who ends up buying it.
I think we all need to understand this before we say things like this artist did.

Kryten, thanks for replying. I hope it didn't come across as too much of a criticism, I just think it is maybe too optimistic a price but all you need is the right buyer who thinks it's the best card ever. Whether it's $300 or $1300, the market is clearly all over the place for these new Buffy cards, hence why I scratch my head. If you can sell it for a lot more, fair play to you. I know I would not want to be a dealer with other stock that is harder to move.

I like Charles Hall too, and am surprised his work can draw very varied prices. I have noticed his Return/Proof card auctions rarely do as well as they could, or I think they should anyway.

Of course the 'worth' of anything is different from person to person but I disagree there is not a 'general worth' based on an average amount the majority would be willing to pay. You may not agree with that amount, but that does not mean that item is NOT worth it.

As for the artists going off on a rant, I agree, totally inappropriate to do so. Heard it before from other artists on these very boards and it is tedious.
I think it's up to the artist to decide if they are happy with the pay offered for the work involved and do a bit of research on how much extra compensation they can get from Artist Proof/Returns. If they are not happy with the deal, walk away. If not entirely happy with the financial remuneration, maybe be glad of the exposure on a licenced product with a large fanbase?

What collectors/dealers do afterward with the end product is nothing to do with the artist.

I'm curious to see what Rittenhouse does now with "Collector Set Series 3". The main draw, as good as it is, is not enough by itself to carry even a $199.99 price tag in my opinion. And especially not now with SMG and Alyson barely selling for $200. SMG and Alyson are still going to be more valuable in my opinion, I don't care if it's their 12th autograph versus the other signer's first. * I'll let someone else spoil the mystery signer if they so choose but I won't. Enough hints have already been dropped.

quote:

Originally posted by X:
Of course the 'worth' of anything is different from person to person but I disagree there is not a 'general worth' based on an average amount the majority would be willing to pay. You may not agree with that amount, but that does not mean that item is NOT worth it.

There is general price, or average price/range, not a general worth. It's just how you define the word.

As someone famous once said, it all depends on what the meaning of is is.

quote:

Originally posted by Kryten67:

I am a dealer & a fan.

You should be honest and say you bought the card for the SOLE purpose of reselling it at a higher price. That is the truth after all. If you were a true fan of the show, you wouldn't let go of such a nice card so quickly. And you relisted the cards back on eBay right away, even when the cards were NOT in your possession, as we can see by your post above that shows you got them in the mail AFTER you listed them back on eBay at 5 times the price you bought it for.

Sure, maybe I'm bitter because I was the second highest bidder on that card, but let's be extremely honest here... if I won, that card would be going into my PC and not back on eBay within 72 hours. Hearing that "I'm a fan" excuse is pretty disheartening, and don't look for sympathy with your "I'm trying to make a living" excuse as well... lol come on now, we're not idiots, it's very clear what your one and only intention was with bidding on those Buffy cards.

Go ahead, call me bitter or angry. But don't lie. The company has screwed the fans and collectors already with this release, the last thing we need are people like you coming in and swooping up all the "affordable" Buffy or Angel cards just because they have been drawn the least, or are the most rare.

It's no wonder that some of these sketch artists have refused to sell their AR's to you.

You wrote an e-mail to me that said: "most of the Monster Characters have Zero Interest to me... generic Monster #5 doesn't do it for me unless the Artist is Crazy Rare in a Set" Those are your EXACT words I copied and pasted here... if you were a true fan of the show, you would be happy with ANY sketch. An Uber Vamp, a Gnarl Demon, D'Hoffryn. Any fan would kill for those. But you are not as big of a fan as you claim to be. Be honest. You only buy sketches of main characters or rare artists not because they are your favorites, but because they will give you the biggest return and make you more money. It's sad enough you beat me on those two cards just so you can make more money, but don't add insult to injury by calling yourself a fan.

Again, sorry for sounding bitter and angry, but put yourself in my shoes. I lost an auction on a card that I've only DREAMED of having in my collection just so you can make some money? Not cool. Buffy is and will always remain my favorite show. I don't buy these cards because they're worth money, I buy these cards because they are worth more to me than you can imagine. Buffy helped me through the death of my parent, as well as other major life issues. Seeing a sketch of certain moments have a huge effect on me emotionally and bring up memories. Your memories are what your biggest pay days were from the cards you resold, not what they mean or even the art itself. Just be honest man.

Again, sorry for coming across harsh, but I feel very very hurt, probably more than you can imagine. I'm not trying to make any enemies here but I just had to get all that off my chest.

Yes, I'm a dealer But I'm Also a fan

Re: Monsters...There are a GLUT of Master, Gentleman and the Like.... they Just Don't Do It for me. Sorry. The Only Monster Sketch I Have Liked was Sweet by Scott Rorie... from the 1st release... Oddly enough as a Trek Guy....NOMAD doesn't do ANYTHING for me.... Look at GOT...How Many castles can you really Need? or the Wolf or the 3 Eyed bird... The Dragons are Cool...oh ...Look another panoramic Vista with No One in It...

we Like sketches that we Like... We Don't Like the Ones that don't do it for Me

As for being a fan......



A Few Personal Tim Proctor Sketches I Commissioned


George, Harlan Ellison & Susan Toth (Mrs. Ellison)


Totally Looks Like Will Ferrell to Me!


Kane Hodder Photo Op... I added the Jason Photo in the background to all of his Photo ops I did for him...



Me During My Rocky Horror days...


Some of My Photo Ops from Shows... I was the Photographer....




My Photo from James Doohan's Farewell Convention



Me & Frog 1992

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Kryten67,

here's the Email Born to Be A Star was Talking About......

I will edit Only Direct Talk of the PRICES some Companies pay the Artists & The Names of the Companies....

Hello,

I am Joseph Moreno...ie KRYTEN67

I have bought several sketches from Charles Hall & other Artists

I make an offer with them knowing my plan is to resale if I can.

Some have no Problem with that.....One or two do...

Charles Hall likes to give everyone a Chance which is why his are Open Auctions.

I've won a few. I wasn't interested in the Willow Hall AP , as the sale Price can attest.
I Didn't Bid on it...She looked Depressed...

After the Last Buffy Set, A Lot of Dealers & Collectors tried to cut their own deal for ARs...

Some Did... The Rest are up for Auctions...

Buffy & Angel are the Rarest Characters, So that's who I went after.

I won one Mike James Buffy AR.

As to Carolyn Edwards, she isn't Listed by RA on their website & to the Best of my Knowledge has had only 3 sketches pop up so far....2 are on eBay & the other is in a Private Collection.

I am More than willing to buy her ARs.... at her price if she has any available.

******** is one of the Better paying sketch card companies...$10.00 per card...
***** is the Bottom at $1.50 for Basic Releases & $3.00 for ***** level premium products. I am Blameless in this......

I may have to set on these sketches for a while but they will sell....

as to the other cards falling in Value, My advice is to buy the ones you like...

most of the Monster Characters have Zero Interest to me... generic Monster #5 doesn't do it for me unless the Artist is Crazy Rare in a Set. like Seth Ismart... in Series One, He had ONLY 2 Sketches approved... & one of those was his AR... It took me Three Months to Convince him to sell It. his Pack Inserted Sketch never hit the public Market as far as I know.

Cards are a Gamble. I try to make my Odds better by getting the best Hand I can.

Even I Lose.........

end of email.......

I predicted all of this MONTHS Ago...Crazy High Sketch Prices ...... The Cheapest AR price I was Offered was $500... , I passed because the Subject didn't interest me.... I have give some of my advice to Artists who I couldn't make a deal with...most took the Advice and did Very Well.

Remember, that's how they make Money as well.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Kryten67,

Back to the Sketch Topic...

almost every artist on Buffy offers Personal Sketch cards ..Much Cheaper than the Prices for this release....& You Get EXACTLY what you want... & Save More than 15% by switching to Artists....

quote:

Originally posted by Kryten67:
Back to the Sketch Topic...

almost every artist on Buffy offers Personal Sketch cards ..Much Cheaper than the Prices for this release....& You Get EXACTLY what you want... & Save More than 15% by switching to Artists....

As long as you giving advice you should note that, while many of the Buffy artists might possibly still be open to accepting sketch commissions, it is not the same as a licensed Buffy incentive card. It's not the same as picking up an approved AP or AR either. A commission may look terrific, better than what's in any product maybe, but it is cheaper and should be a lot cheaper than ultra limited sketches in a high end release for a reason. Just look at all the nice ACEOs out there that are asking less than $25 and will never be valued more than that.

My issue with this very unique Buffy product is not with the dealers. We need dealers and dealers need to make profits. RA set it up this way and knows what is happening and why. Series 3 is expected to follow, although I have no idea where it can go after that. All I have been asking for from the very beginning is a fully realized new Buffy set with autographs from all the favorites and for some reason RA has decided not to do that and created this artificial sketch frenzy.

It is what it is and one of these days I'm going to get an SMG Buffy autograph card at exactly the price I believe it should be. It's not there yet.

If Rittenhouse really wanted to drive sales for these sets, they would make a Sarah Michelle Gellar autograph in the style of the Inkworks sets. People who collected those sets would go nuts.

@Kryten67

I wasn't trying to start a war and honestly I'm not even interested anymore.

You bought a card at auction for $275 and you're trying to sell it for $1275. You listed the card when it wasn't even in your possession yet. That's all I see. Those are the facts, period.

Anyway, moving on.

quote:

Originally posted by Jason00:
If Rittenhouse really wanted to drive sales for these sets, they would make a Sarah Michelle Gellar autograph in the style of the Inkworks sets. People who collected those sets would go nuts.

I thought about that also. And I agree it would be more sought after than these SMG's, especially if it was signed in a similar black pen that Inkworks used. But I wonder, knowing nothing about copyright law, are they legally allowed to use Inkworks old design? I really have no idea.