I think it became a bigger risk maybe 15-20 years ago. Licensors saw things selling well so prices went up. I've seen others talk about "The Boys" being a great subject for a card set but maybe the asking price is too high for a smaller manufacturer to even think about and too risky for a larger one.

I don't think box prices are going down either. Costs go up for manufacturers too. What's it cost to get some autographs out celebrities that are the stars/co-stars of shows and movies? Is that now the difference between a $60 box and a $120 box? A couple of years ago, Monsterwax made a great-looking artwork set with "Lost in Space The Art of Ron Gross." It doesn't have celebrity autographs besides the artist's and there are no sketches but each box has a metal card and either a printing plate or an artist bio card with a shot at a signed one. A box goes for about $55. That seems to be what you can expect of a box from any card maker at that general price level.

It seemed to me that the premium pack was the answer for some card makers and collectors but some sold out only because there were some great deals offered later.

I agree - no easy answers. I think one thing manufacturers could do is make sure at least some multi-case incentives also get inserted in packs. Give everyone buying even one pack at least a tiny chance at the rarest cards. They could still give them to the multi-case buyers who could then have an extra one to sell. How's the company going to look when even just a few collectors brag about how they pulled a 6-case or 9-case incentive in the one box they bought that was otherwise a relative dud. That collector might forget about what it cost then.

And also, don't call it an archive box if it doesn't have everything in the set in it. Boxes missing the best cards are just sample boxes at that point and should not cost many hundreds of dollars.

quote:

Originally posted by webjon:

quote:

Originally posted by ravenheart:
I don't see any (good) change coming unless they sort out the ever-growing disparity between box prices and content value. The non-sport market is slowly dying and will continue to die while the cost of collecting anything besides the autographs of background extras carries on rising.

I think this is significantly dependent on what segment of the hobby you are chasing. For Marvel and the new CXZ the most popular sets have been the most expensive boxes -- and it's not even close.

GPK and Star Wars also seem to be doing very well at their current prices.

The biggest issue I see is that there aren't many new titles coming out. It has become very risky to try a new license.

I don't think we'll see box prices drop. I keep seeing companies try to improve the value of the contents of a box by reducing the number base cards/sets per box, trying premium packs, or boxes with tons of chase and hits at a higher price, but all the changes the manufactures tried seem to be met with backlash.

The people who talk about box price tend want at least one base set per box, and they also want to be able to buy base sets for little or nothing. Unfortunately that isn't sustainable.

There don't seem to be any easy answers. The options tend to be a low volume release at high dollar, or a high volume release at low dollar, but there currently don't seem to be enough buyers to drive many high volume releases.

quote:

Originally posted by ravenheart:

quote:

Originally posted by webjon:
I'm not sure what license would be attractive to Topps / Fanatics that they don't already have -- the only thing I can think of is Marvel.

Harry Potter.

I think Harry Potter would be a great license for any company for sure -- I was only considering licenses that were already being held by a manufacturer.

Unless Fanatics comes in with its own style ideas, i think they will still lean on formerly TOPPS card division personnel for production designs.

I agree with the part about incentives being made available in boxes and either getting rid of archive boxes or putting everything in them, or making sure everything is seeded without archive exclusives. But all that is RA's construction. Same way ePacks belongs to UD.

Fanatics may just stick with TOPPS Now type custom ordered models until it comes up with something of its own.

So as mentioned in the other thread, we have a new trading company called "zerocall" that is somehow associated with " a Fanatics Experience".

I can't make heads or tails out of this corporate structure or its website. I don't know who owns what, or who is hosting what, or what they get for doing it. All I know is, I've changed my mind from a month ago.

I thought Fanatics would try to have some continuity with TOPPS card products, since they bought them up and have all that history. Now based on whatever this Fanatics Experience is supposed to mean, I have no idea what they intend to do with anything.

I figure they will eventually design packs that will destroy your card when you open it.

We'll call it "Damage Authenticated"

quote:

Originally posted by mykdude:
I figure they will eventually design packs that will destroy your card when you open it.

We'll call it "Damage Authenticated"

I already get some of those through the post.

quote:

Originally posted by Raven:
So as mentioned in the other thread, we have a new trading company called "zerocall" that is somehow associated with " a Fanatics Experience".

I can't make heads or tails out of this corporate structure or its website. I don't know who owns what, or who is hosting what, or what they get for doing it. All I know is, I've changed my mind from a month ago.

I thought Fanatics would try to have some continuity with TOPPS card products, since they bought them up and have all that history. Now based on whatever this Fanatics Experience is supposed to mean, I have no idea what they intend to do with anything.

zerocool is a brand owned by Fanatics.

Topps is a brand owned by Fanatics.

Both will make trading cards, however, how they make them and what they offer will be different.

It's like the same company owning KFC and Taco Bell. Both are fast food restaurants but each makes their own product.

quote:

Originally posted by Ryan Cracknell:
zerocool is a brand owned by Fanatics.

Topps is a brand owned by Fanatics.

Both will make trading cards, however, how they make them and what they offer will be different.

It's like the same company owning KFC and Taco Bell. Both are fast food restaurants but each makes their own product.

I understand this but my concern is where are we going in methods of production and marketing?

I like to think I do OK in life but if the idea is to push $2K boxes than I am out of the hobby. The past 3 or 4 years have already pushed me in this direction. Seems like we are heading to where 3 to 500 dollars (the cheap stuff) for a box will be the norm.

quote:

Originally posted by Ryan Cracknell:

quote:

Originally posted by Raven:
So as mentioned in the other thread, we have a new trading company called "zerocall" that is somehow associated with " a Fanatics Experience".

I can't make heads or tails out of this corporate structure or its website. I don't know who owns what, or who is hosting what, or what they get for doing it. All I know is, I've changed my mind from a month ago.

I thought Fanatics would try to have some continuity with TOPPS card products, since they bought them up and have all that history. Now based on whatever this Fanatics Experience is supposed to mean, I have no idea what they intend to do with anything.

zerocool is a brand owned by Fanatics.

Topps is a brand owned by Fanatics.

Both will make trading cards, however, how they make them and what they offer will be different.

It's like the same company owning KFC and Taco Bell. Both are fast food restaurants but each makes their own product.

Yeah, but I like both KFC and Taco Bell, and if they had Wendy's, I'd like that too. Fast food is fast food all over and nobody eats just one, unless you avoid all.

I misspoke and mistyped with "zerocool". It is a brand line apparently, rather than a separate company. But what does Gary Vaynerchuk have to do with it exactly? Based on his NFT Project, it says. Is he the designer? Does he hold a position with Fanatics? Is he just pumping it up for them or is he selling it himself? As one of Fanatics first ventures into the market, how does "zerocool" even look like a non-sport card product?

I don't know what Fanatics was involved in before the TOPPS card acquisition. I thought they sold sports apparel, but I guess it went deeper that. They sure had a lot of connections.

Anyway, I've been buying and collecting cards for a long time and I thought I knew at least all of the basics. I don't know what's going on now. It has nothing to do with resisting change. Change used to be good, but I honestly think we are leaving the realm of being a hobby for just fans. The money is too much, the manipulation is too much, and the utter nonsense is too much.

I will continue to follow my own rules of card collecting on my terms and have fun with it. If that means having a cutoff date from newer products that I can't understand or disagree with, then that's what it will be.

quote:

Originally posted by Raven:

Yeah, but I like both KFC and Taco Bell, and if they had Wendy's, I'd like that too. Fast food is fast food all over and nobody eats just one, unless you avoid all.

I misspoke and mistyped with "zerocool". It is a brand line apparently, rather than a separate company. But what does Gary Vaynerchuk have to do with it exactly? Based on his NFT Project, it says. Is he the designer? Does he hold a position with Fanatics? Is he just pumping it up for them or is he selling it himself? As one of Fanatics first ventures into the market, how does "zerocool" even look like a non-sport card product?

I don't know what Fanatics was involved in before the TOPPS card acquisition. I thought they sold sports apparel, but I guess it went deeper that. They sure had a lot of connections.

Anyway, I've been buying and collecting cards for a long time and I thought I knew at least all of the basics. I don't know what's going on now. It has nothing to do with resisting change. Change used to be good, but I honestly think we are leaving the realm of being a hobby for just fans. The money is too much, the manipulation is too much, and the utter nonsense is too much.

I will continue to follow my own rules of card collecting on my terms and have fun with it. If that means having a cutoff date from newer products that I can't understand or disagree with, then that's what it will be.

Topps makes Star Wars cards.

Rittenhouse makes Game of Thrones cards.

Upper Deck does Marvel cards.

zerocool did a set of VeeFriends cards. I'm sure the zerocool website has information on their products. And if you're wondering what VeeFriends are, Gary V. is a pretty tech-savvy person so there's a probably a website that explains that too.

quote:

Originally posted by Ryan Cracknell:
zerocool did a set of VeeFriends cards. I'm sure the zerocool website has information on their products. And if you're wondering what VeeFriends are, Gary V. is a pretty tech-savvy person so there's a probably a website that explains that too.

Or you could just look at the box breaks on Instagram and decide. It's kind of hard to argue that this is the future of non-sport cards on its merits. It's pretty embarrassing really, and I say that knowing full well the price tag and that it will probably go up. So what?

This has nothing to do with the hobby. That Fanatics might think it does, is a different story.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Raven,

Believe it or not, I'm actually getting optimistic about the reception of this product coming not just from non-sport collectors, but also from those high rolling sports card collectors. Take a look at the link below, which was lifted from a helpful Blowout poster. Read the hundreds of comments to the video and see what you think.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pzkyh-N5y3A

Hey Raven,

Thanks for the link. It was heartening to read the comments of those who see "The Emperor's New Clothes" for what they really are. I didn't read them all. I thought it was funny when the guy wondered how the cards would do on the secondary market. He was checking for dings because he planned to send a couple of them to get graded. Great.

Selling cards in a thin flip-top pack like that isn't good for cards. They can get damaged at the corners that way. Comic Images used to sell factory sets like that with a promo slipped in.

Jess

quote:

Originally posted by Raven:
Believe it or not, I'm actually getting optimistic about the reception of this product coming not just from non-sport collectors, but also from those high rolling sports card collectors. Take a look at the link below, which was lifted from a helpful Blowout poster. Read the hundreds of comments to the video and see what you think.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pzkyh-N5y3A

After watching this unboxing video what is this going to do for the hobby
Fanatics are going to make sure that the Dutch auction system gives them max profit for min layout .
Packaging probably cost more to produce than the cards
A pack of GI Joe cards wow A hat and shirt
The video says that there is a base set of 268 with the auction price per box this will cost approx if lucky 55.000 who in our hobby can afford that although this pack had 11 cards in it
In my opinion it is a rip off and if future issues are based on the same format this will spell the end of our hobby and only the big investors will have cornered the market
And with the market in such a small circle I would predict a collapse in it It takes more than deep pockets to keep a hobby floating the small collector keeps the hobby going
Invest in gold it is cheaper than Fanatics cards and at least you will be able to sell it on
MYO

It is interesting to see how few people in the hobby are supportive of this. It does seem like most of the buyers must be influencers, speculators or flippers.

It is odd to me that with much money as they spent on the packaging they didn't bother to put the cards in any sort of protection -- not even penny sleeves.

quote:

Originally posted by piko:
Fanatics are going to make sure that the Dutch auction system gives them max profit for min layout.

Yes, next to the cards themselves, this was the most surprising thing to me. I had never heard of a Dutch Auction being used to set the price of a new card product. That is a strategy used to find the optimum price for a new investment I believe. For cards, it's always been a simple SRP set by the maker for retail as far as I know. But maybe it has happened before and I don't know.

So I really can't say what, if any precautions there are to using this to fix prices, but the worst case is that unknown bidders, buying in blocks, are used as the basis for the floor price. As an example, with 800 boxes and a stated 40 box maximum purchase, it would be within the rules of this product for as few as 20 people to buy up every box and set the floor price for all 800 boxes. Would anyone besides the maker get to know who those buyers were?

No, I don't think so. You are simply accepting when you bid that the offers from true bidders are being tabulated accurately and the lowest offer still within the production run becomes the price paid by all. That is quite radical for non-sport cards and that Fanatics has embraced that pricing system for its first notable release is pretty amazing.

I'm pretty sure they won't do it for everything, but certain Topps ultra-premium lines like Stellar might fall into the price range where it could be considered. Very interesting!

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Raven,

Not sure what to make of all the info in the interview found below, but I liked the part about "Zerocool is the culture side of the Fanatics Topps trading card organization". It also mentions GPK and what I take to be their next "experiment" in Jacka$$ cards. I imagine Jacka$$ fits in with their idea of culture.

Culture would also seem to be their word for non-sport.

Somewhere it was said that Jacka$$ will be 9500 boxes and it will also have a "Dutch Auction". Don't know how accurate that will be, but if its close, these "experiments" are looking like a format for Fanatics. See if you can figure out all this talk of partnerships and such.

I want to see what they do when they hit Star Wars.

https://www.complex.com/sneake...lectibles-interview/

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Raven,

"While trading cards were thought of as little more than a hobby only a few years ago, the market is now valued at $13 billion with a projection to reach $98 billion by 2027."

You can't tell me 98 billion isn't going to change the game.

https://variety.com/shop/jacka...zerocool-1235220249/

quote:

Originally posted by mykdude:
"While trading cards were thought of as little more than a hobby only a few years ago, the market is now valued at $13 billion with a projection to reach $98 billion by 2027."

You can't tell me 98 billion isn't going to change the game.

https://variety.com/shop/jacka...zerocool-1235220249/

I wonder what they are basing that projection on. . .

I'm also curious what they mean when they say 'the market is valued at' -- is 'the market' sales for the current year?

I liked the part about "introduced trading cards (as a hobby and financial asset)".

I think we have to be very careful about what is really going on here and where it might be headed based on these snippets of interviews coming out. This direction is not about non-sport card collecting. It belongs more on a financial forum than on Card Talk. This is making new cards as a financial instrument to build wealth on a monetary market.

Years and years ago, when premium hits became valuable, there was talk that new card boxes were getting to be a lottery. There was immediate push back on that idea, because you can't run a lottery or look like it's a lottery. Not unless you are the State government, or a charity, or got authorization to run your lottery for some reason. So no, no card box lotteries.

Now these new card ideas are not lotteries either but are more apt to be compared to cryptocurrency or NFT's or even the fine arts market, which the maker's themselves are doing with the language they are using as part of the sales pitch.

The thing is that this is entering an area where the only support for your financial investment is the support itself. It's a pyramid structure that makes money as long as people believe and are willing to keep buying and elevating the price. It's a sustainable bubble, until it isn't. Then what is left once more people want to cash out, than buy in? Nothing, because the instrument has no function or inherit value itself.

There is no love in this. There is no hobby in this. And if you are planning your wealth on this, there are real risks here. It's about the money and nothing else.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Raven,

It is very clear to me that a significant number of the new people buying cards -- a lot of them buying Marvel PMGs are mainly interested in buying cards as an investment.

They don't care about the hobby -- they only care about long term value.

Ultimately that is why I think this is a bubble. The 'investment' can only be sustained if you are able to sell to other 'investors.' Traditional non-sport card collectors aren't spending $100,000 on a PMG.

Can Zerocool make this hobby in to an investment? I have no idea -- can you really convince people with money that Jacka$$ is an investable brand?!?!

I would have said no way until I saw the sales on the VeeFriends garbage.