quote:

Originally posted by webjon:
RA should take note of what exactly?

That people are flooding the market with autograph cards as they open a brand new product?

I think the point was that the market is being flooded with cheap autographs from an expensive product. They may not be so keen to splash out on a series 2 for more of the same.

quote:

Originally posted by wolfie:

quote:

Originally posted by webjon:
RA should take note of what exactly?

That people are flooding the market with autograph cards as they open a brand new product?

I think the point was that the market is being flooded with cheap autographs from an expensive product. They may not be so keen to splash out on a series 2 for more of the same.

I'm still not sure what the message for Rittenhouse should be. . .

Boxes of Inflexions are $129 for 3 autographs including a bridge crew member.

What changes are being suggested?

From where I am sitting it seems like a really good value.

The biggest problem I see is people pricing autographs too cheap in some instances, which is entirely outside of Rittenhouse's control.

The message is that non-sport boxes at these prices will not sell to a majority of card collectors as sealed product. The value gap is too wide when you pull average hits that are being sold on eBay for under $10 or even when your best pull manages to get up to $40. After that what do you have? One or two more $10 cards and a couple of base cards and a parallel that you can't do a thing with. You're not completing anything with even multiple boxes.

Star Trek Inflexions is still available on the RA website now. I guess I was wrong. they haven't sold out. The price is $160 a box, $3,200 a case. If you can find boxes of Star Trek Inflexions for $129 that alone proves my point. They are being discounted close to wholesale price a week away from release. Card collectors have wised up.

Average cards from ultra premium products will not sell for any more than they would in any other product. The higher you make the boxes, the more money the breaker loses when they don't pull those very limited big autographs or terrific name artist sketches. Once the card collector stops buying sealed product, all risk falls to the breaker, whether that's a full time dealer or a part time flipper.

What changes are being suggested? Reduce the price and/or add enough value to the box to make it worth opening. Instead of case construction, think about box construction. Don't tell non-sport card collectors to their faces that we don't need you because its dealers and case buying flippers who need our attention and incentives. But who buys the cards from dealers and flippers?

Just watched some box breaks on youtube, just my opinion if these don't have enough value in a box at $129 then maybe RA should just give up.

Looks like an awesome set, I haven't bought Trek before, but I'm going to be buying some of these.

quote:

Originally posted by webjon:

just my opinion if these don't have enough value in a box at $129 then maybe RA should just give up.

is this a case of value to the box buyer who likes the card vs resale value to the person who is only buying to re-sell.

quote:

Originally posted by wolfie:

quote:

Originally posted by webjon:

just my opinion if these don't have enough value in a box at $129 then maybe RA should just give up.

is this a case of value to the box buyer who likes the card vs resale value to the person who is only buying to re-sell.

I dunno, seems like decent resale too, there are lot of cards that you can pull that will pay for the whole box or multiple boxes. The sketches seem to mostly be VERY nice and not too common, the costume cards also look very cool and are not overproduced. I like the Phaser cut and stamp cards too, plus every box has at least one well known character's autograph.

In todays market you can't compare ebay sales prices to value of a product. There are too many flippers who race to the bottom and kill a product because they bought it all on credit and now have to pay for it.

I look at it as when I open a product am I happy with what I opened. I can say that I don't usually feel that way when I open any Star Wars product. With this I was very happy.
- Base cards are ok, pictures could be a little clearer.
- parallels are very nice.
- inserts are all very well done.
- sketches have been really nice.
- Autographs, I am a casual Trek fan and I knew almost every name I pulled. Could have been a couple less doubles but some of the doubles have been better names. Getting doubles of Koenig, McFadden, Frakes, Plummer, Spiner, as well as the bottom names like Snyder and Sheperd.

The one thing that would have put this over the top would have been one or two Roddenberry cuts and a couple more multi-signed cards. The chase for a Roddenberry cut for a smaller production run like this would have been nuts.

I wish I had the money to buy a couple cases and sit on them. This product will eventually dry up and the prices will increase.

quote:

Originally posted by ifish73:
In todays market you can't compare ebay sales prices to value of a product.

In theory I agree with you, but in reality we both know that isn't how it goes when a card collector opens a sealed box.

There aren't too many moving parts to these ultra premium products because you are not completing anything in the box and multiple boxes or cases are too expensive to even attempt. Lesser common cards are not being elevated by being part of a checklist that few are thinking of completing. Inserts and harder parallels of 1/50 and 1/100 are going largely ignored when you are getting only a couple a box. What do you do with them besides put them in a plastic case?

So you look to the hits to see if you have value. And when the eBay total of those hits is $60 and you paid $140 for the box and maybe you wouldn't even have chosen those particular cards to buy in the first place, well you kick yourself. That's what's happening too often.

Yes it is the fault of the dumpers who never cared about the cards, only the re-sale. But its also the fault of the card makers who prop up the products with bulk purchase incentives and guaranteed specific construction for cases only.

These flippers, many non-professionals in the card business, didn't just spring up overnight. They were groomed with dollar signs in their heads and what can work with sports cards does not work with non-sport titles. Once card collectors stop opening the boxes and go to the SECONDARY market as their FIRST option the whole structure of card distribution changes and the real card dealers, who are absolutely necessary, are going to be stuck with inventory they can't sell or risk breaking. Card collectors can wait it out and will be fine, but future products will be severely effected. At least that's my view of this self made mess.

If the floor on a box of this is around $60 -- a little less than half the box price then how is this different or worse than most products where the floor of a product is say $20 out of a $80 which is a quarter of the cost of the box.

I don't believe I ever got only $20 worth of cards out of an $80 box because that was already a premium product. Perhaps you did, but that would be very unlucky. I never thought a base set was worth only $5 either because if I bought the title I probably wanted the base set. ifish is right about a fan seeing more value in even common cards and I don't think box buyers really ever expect to get all their monies worth. After all the chance of pulling something big is also factored into the fun of breaking boxes. We all know we are paying something for the gamble.

But the value gap can not be so great that you are not prepared to lose it and that's what we are looking at now with boxes at SRP $160 and over. The big hits are as limited as they always were, but the foolish dumping of the common cards in these ultra expensive products and the inability to complete a base set just makes the problem worse for a genuine collector/fan. You can only be willing to lose so much on a box before you stop breaking altogether.

quote:

Originally posted by Raven:
I don't believe I ever got only $20 worth of cards out of an $80 box because that was already a premium product. Perhaps you did, but that would be very unlucky.

Very unlucky? Really? Pick any set with sub $10 hits and this happens.

All this talk of the maths is rather dry and ignores the merits of the set.

I get the concern for resale value if you are a dealer breaking large volume, but as has already been pointed out: boxes of any type are always a gamble, 99c start auction listings and 'racing to the bottom' by big dealers to quickly generate a return on their spend, is not indicative of real value. Be it value to the collector or higher resale prices on eBay once the initial glut dries up.
Some sellers keep relisting the same cards one after another, people have the holidays to pay for. Lots of factors affect prices.

Also, in most sets dealers usually have to try and make their money back on one or two really good cards but when the spread of names is so much better across the board, as it is here, prices are more reasonable on the majority when they first hit the market. Loads of main cast can be had for sub $25 and collectors should lap them up now while the getting is good.

I think this is one of the best Trek sets RA have put out in a long time. The auto list is absolutely solid with the majority being main characters on multiple auto designs to cater to differing tastes. The Bridge crew design is great and offers nearly all the main characters across all Trek series, in one uniform style for the first time.
Some 'highlights' in Cumberbatch, the duals are neat for those who appreciate them, some more Montalbhan's on the market is never a bad thing (even if few), the sketches are so much better on average than in most card sets. Variety is there in the chase cards, although undoubtedly hard to put together. Still, the retro sticker cards are cool... even if the design has been lifted from Topps' Star Wars sets

I only pick up singles so don't share in the completest frustration, but there are some great cards in this set.

quote:

Originally posted by X:
Also, in most sets dealers usually have to try and make their money back on one or two really good cards but when the spread of names is so much better across the board, as it is here, prices are more reasonable on the majority when they first hit the market. Loads of main cast can be had for sub $25 and collectors should lap them up now while the getting is good.

That's sort of like saying the better the signers you have, the more they are regarded as lower priced commons. That's not it. The better signers should all be mid-range to upper range prices if there is true demand and desperate sellers should not be looking to dump them for offers or auctions that are going for too little.

Look I agree with you about the cards, they are well made and have a good checklist of signers. Star Trek fans should be very interested in picking them up and now is the time to do it. At these prices the cards will at the very least hold their value and some should actually rise as supply dries up.

But this set is also suffering from the negatives that having ultra premium high priced non-sport product has produced and I don't know why some folks seem so reluctant to admit it. When collectors who want to buy and break sealed boxes can't because of that math, which is money by the way, then something is very wrong. When the only people who can risk breaking sealed product are the ones looking for re-sale, then something is wrong. When that re-sale comes up short and impatient sellers decide to dump good cards, then something is wrong. When collectors who used to buy sealed boxes quit to go strictly to the secondary market for individual cards and lots, then something is wrong.

This isn't about this one set. If this is the template that card makers expect to follow for premium non-sport cards, inventory will linger and sellers, both pro dealers and amateur flippers, will take on more risk and lose more money. You have to be able to sell sealed product to real collectors and maybe even have those boxes go for more than SRP. You can't ignore box buyers and expect to keep the trading card hobby and new sets healthy. That's my message to all card manufacturers.

quote:

Originally posted by Raven:

quote:

Originally posted by X:
Also, in most sets dealers usually have to try and make their money back on one or two really good cards but when the spread of names is so much better across the board, as it is here, prices are more reasonable on the majority when they first hit the market. Loads of main cast can be had for sub $25 and collectors should lap them up now while the getting is good.

That's sort of like saying the better the signers you have, the more they are regarded as lower priced commons. That's not it. The better signers should all be mid-range to upper range prices if there is true demand and desperate sellers should not be looking to dump them for offers or auctions that are going for too little.

If Patrick Stewart was the only 'decent' name in the set do you think he would be selling for more or less than he is now?
The weaker/scarcer the best stuff, the more reliant sellers are upon the 'cream of the crop' to recoup their costs. It happens all the time.

Sellers shouldn't race eachother to the bottom, but they do. And the resultant lower prices can make a good hit list look worse.
Demand is both short and long term also.

quote:

Originally posted by Raven:
But this set is also suffering from the negatives that having ultra premium high priced non-sport product has produced and I don't know why some folks seem so reluctant to admit it. When collectors who want to buy and break sealed boxes can't because of that math, which is money by the way, then something is very wrong. When the only people who can risk breaking sealed product are the ones looking for re-sale, then something is wrong. When that re-sale comes up short and impatient sellers decide to dump good cards, then something is wrong. When collectors who used to buy sealed boxes quit to go strictly to the secondary market for individual cards and lots, then something is wrong.

This isn't about this one set. If this is the template that card makers expect to follow for premium non-sport cards, inventory will linger and sellers, both pro dealers and amateur flippers, will take on more risk and lose more money. You have to be able to sell sealed product to real collectors and maybe even have those boxes go for more than SRP. You can't ignore box buyers and expect to keep the trading card hobby and new sets healthy. That's my message to all card manufacturers.

I don't mean to sound unsympathetic to alienated box-buyers but in the past and the present, haven't dealers always been the primary customer for sealed product? The customers who, buying in bulk, are better placed to take the rough with the smooth in terms of breaks?

quote:

Originally posted by X:
If Patrick Stewart was the only 'decent' name in the set do you think he would be selling for more or less than he is now?

The weaker/scarcer the best stuff, the more reliant sellers are upon the 'cream of the crop' to recoup their costs. It happens all the time.

Sellers shouldn't race eachother to the bottom, but they do. And the resultant lower prices can make a good hit list look worse.

Demand is both short and long term also.


I don't mean to sound unsympathetic to alienated box-buyers but in the past and the present, haven't dealers always been the primary customer for sealed product? The customers who, buying in bulk, are better placed to take the rough with the smooth in terms of breaks?

Have to disagree with the first part. A plethora of good autograph cards in high demand in a set shouldn't deduct value from the "cream of the crop". They would all just fall in a solid mid to upper price range.

If it was only Stewart, as your example suggests, the sellers may try to hike it for more, but it will still sell for the approximate same price in my opinion. Remember that one of the issues with Star Trek Inflexions is that nearly every signer was a repeat and I think that has a lot to do with the tepid demand of known actors. Stewart has many autograph cards available. Do you really think any new one, in any priced product, would hit $500? Or $400? Or $300? Or even $200? Demand is not there to make his card that valuable. So no, I don't think a good hit list results in lower pricing by association. It would result in more value all around.

As for the second part, yes absolutely. Card makers have made third party sellers their primary customer. Whether that's their distributors, independent dealers, part-time sellers, or pure flippers, products are aimed at bulk buyers who will turn around and sell it. That is the whole point of case construction and dealer/case buyer incentives. But where does that leave the actual collector?

It's not that anyone has to be sympathetic to the box buyer. The box buyers aren't some poor guys with their noses pressed to the glass window pane. Box buyers bought a ton of product. Often random product from various titles. The lowly box buyer actually spent a lot of money annually and took up a fair percentage of sales because there was a lot of them. Box buying is a segment of the market. Discourage those sales, as high priced product with poor value does, and those bulk sellers don't have customers to offload their sealed boxes. They have to hold unsold inventory or break it themselves and risk selling more on the secondary market. The more expensive the box, the more the breaker loses when the "cream of the crop" isn't found, or it is but light demand won't make up the cost of what must be discounted to sell.

We're talking simple economics now. When the bulk buyers have more rough than smooth, they start dumping and it brings down the prices for the cards for everyone, including those other bulk buyers who don't want to sell at those prices and the collectors also, who won't touch the boxes and will only pick up the discounted cards.

The hobby needs to make it sensible for collectors to break boxes again. That includes boxes of premium products. If your entire food chain consists of sellers looking for alienated collectors, how long before you start to lose money? It's not a sustainable model.

How many cases do you think have been opened so far? Trying to figure out how rare the dual autographs are. Only seen one Khan dual and around 16 combined of the others. We have opened three cases so far and pulled one dual.

Appears that the Kevin Graham original portrait sketches are more common than the Khan dual.

quote:

Originally posted by ifish73:
How many cases do you think have been opened so far? Trying to figure out how rare the dual autographs are. Only seen one Khan dual and around 16 combined of the others. We have opened three cases so far and pulled one dual.

Appears that the Kevin Graham original portrait sketches are more common than the Khan dual.

Ricardo Montalban died in 2009, so I'm amazed that RA had anything to use. Is the autograph on a sticker or cut or something that was on-card? Difficult to tell from the photo.

To my mind that Cumberbatch/Montalban dual is the best one in the set and I wouldn't be surprised if someone said there are less than 5 made.

quote:

Originally posted by Raven:
Ricardo Montalban died in 2009, so I'm amazed that RA had anything to use. Is the autograph on a sticker or cut or something that was on-card? Difficult to tell from the photo.

To my mind that Cumberbatch/Montalban dual is the best one in the set and I wouldn't be surprised if someone said there are less than 5 made.

Steve posted on the RA Board that they used cards from The Animated Series release, which would have technically been Art and Images I believe. So it's likely they had some in the vault, but not likely a huge amount.

Ed

quote:

Originally posted by Scifi Cards:

quote:

Originally posted by Raven:
Ricardo Montalban died in 2009, so I'm amazed that RA had anything to use. Is the autograph on a sticker or cut or something that was on-card? Difficult to tell from the photo.

To my mind that Cumberbatch/Montalban dual is the best one in the set and I wouldn't be surprised if someone said there are less than 5 made.

Steve posted on the RA Board that they used cards from The Animated Series release, which would have technically been Art and Images I believe. So it's likely they had some in the vault, but not likely a huge amount.

Ed

So that would mean that the Momtalban portion of the dual is actually a cut signature. It's cut from RA's own card, but still a cut. And Cumberbatch probably did his on-card.

So then that would qualify as another example of an older certified card being destroyed to create a higher priced certified card in a new product.

quote:

Originally posted by X:
The Bridge crew design is great and offers nearly all the main characters across all Trek series, in one uniform style for the first time.

I agree, I also like the Bridge crew design or is it the 50th Anniversary design? So if I am not mistaken there are now 31 autographs with the crew/50th anniversary design right? 5 captain autograph cards (in set the 50th anniversary) and 26 crew design autographs (in set inflexions). Is it likely there will be more autos released in this format?

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