Well what you are seeing is the obvious conclusion to all this. The higher you price the boxes the higher the contents will have to be sold for to cover it but the contents of the boxes are not worth that much ( when were they ? ).

The dealers probably know they will not sell the cards at the prices they are having to put on them but have no choice to cover the box cost.

If they wind up taking a loss or ending up with binders full of cards that nobody wants or at least not at those prices then they will not order the next product and so on and so on until the hobby vanishes or has to have a total re-think.

The Topps Doctor Who products seemed like they struggled and they were loaded with good signers across the whole history of the program. They did sell and sold OK, as long as they were cheap. You can say but these are on-card autographs and that's great, but it's also from one of the least popular eras of the show with only one significant draw (in Jodie). And four autographs per box is great too, but what if the majority of them are four $10 cards? I think the future sets, when you get into the most popular series' of this new era (i.e. Eccleston, Tennant, and Matt Smith), will be far more telling as far as if Doctor Who can sustain these box/case prices. You charge these prices and offer a 4-autograph box with the chance of pulling on-card Tennant, Rose, or Donna autographs? or even Matt Smith and Amy Pond? and dual autographs? plus some of the fine supporting characters/actors from those shows? Then I'll be in.

Instead of making a product with 4 autographs per box at approximately $125 each, make a box with 1 autograph at $40 each. Put your whole 60 card set in it with no other duplicates that no one wants anyway. Throw in an insert card and a parallel card and that's it. Sounds a lot like the premium packs/sets that Breygent made for Dexter and Vampirella.

And wants wrong with it. More collectors will try it and they will also buy more boxes because they aren't forced into a big output of money all at once. At $40 or $45 a pop, it's a fun break because you can get a common hit and still be satisfied losing a few bucks. Not like this where you have to lay out $250 on a couple of boxes at one time and then hold your breathe to see if you get something worth your money.

For me at least, that's the problem more than the total spent. It's how you have to spend it. I really think this is what's making actual card collectors pass on products that they may have at least tried in a different time. Putting in more value but upping the price of the box just puts the value right back where it started from, but shuts out more buyers unwilling to even go in at so high a cost.

Card makers keep doubling down on the very things that card collectors don't want because they are catering to the current card market, rather than the card collector. The non-sport card market and the non-sport collector are no longer the same thing in my opinion.

4 on card autographs per box for $125 a box is a great price point for the contents.

Zerocool sold Jack@ss boxes for $101 with a 50/50 chance at an autograph.

Spider-Man Metal is up to $540 on pre-sale with hits that are basically either numbered cards or a sketch.

If this isn't selling well it's not due to the price point -- it's due to the collectors not really being interested in the license. If most of the autographs are $10 that's because the collectors aren't interested in the autographs.

If that is the case -- and I have no idea if it is the case -- you need to find new collectors as you are fighting a losing battle.

The Jodie autograph looks fantastic -- she has an awesome signature, and the inscriptions are great -- easily read. I see 6 sales from $400-$535. Seems pretty healthy to me.

quote:

Originally posted by Logan:
The Topps Doctor Who products seemed like they struggled and they were loaded with good signers across the whole history of the program. They did sell and sold OK, as long as they were cheap. You can say but these are on-card autographs and that's great, but it's also from one of the least popular eras of the show with only one significant draw (in Jodie). And four autographs per box is great too, but what if the majority of them are four $10 cards? I think the future sets, when you get into the most popular series' of this new era (i.e. Eccleston, Tennant, and Matt Smith), will be far more telling as far as if Doctor Who can sustain these box/case prices. You charge these prices and offer a 4-autograph box with the chance of pulling on-card Tennant, Rose, or Donna autographs? or even Matt Smith and Amy Pond? and dual autographs? plus some of the fine supporting characters/actors from those shows? Then I'll be in.

Great points here -- it'll be curious to see what happens when other Who series are created. . .

Personally I wish RA would pick up a license like Harry Potter.

Another thing RA should consider is revisiting some of their old card designs and making some retro inserts -- that seems to be doing wonders for Upper Deck and Leaf.

Hell if they have the funds -- RA should be trying to buy IP from old brands like Inkworks and bring out retro Inkworks designs.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: webjon,

quote:

Originally posted by webjon:

4 on card autographs per box for $125 a box is a great price point for the contents.

It sounds good but you would have to sell them for at least $40 each to make a profit on the box and they are more like $10 each with the odd exception. If you were not intrested in selling them and wanted them for your own collection it is a pricey way of going about it.

quote:

Originally posted by wolfie:
. . . they are more like $10 each with the odd exception. If you were not intrested in selling them and wanted them for your own collection it is a pricey way of going about it.

Yup, on the nose. It's hard to argue there's value here when you take a look at the first wave eBay sold listings so far. Many of the auctions are winning for lower than or close to the shipping fees. Gill is about the second or third best signer and her regular card is moving in the $50 range. Inscriptions will generally go for more than Bordered and FB. I like the Bordered look more in this design and I really like those few metal cards.

If these auction prices continue, existing Doctor Who fans should pick up the autographs before sellers slap a BIN on all of them or just stop busting boxes. You can stack up a lot of signers for the cost on one box if this holds for long.

I really don't like the number of extra base cards with a 60 card set - 39 extra surely just put 4 packs less per box and charge $10 less

quote:

Originally posted by hammer:
I really don't like the number of extra base cards with a 60 card set - 39 extra surely just put 4 packs less per box and charge $10 less

Yeah, I hate that too. RA seem to do this all the time now. There are so many chase sets, would it hurt to have a few more of those cards dropped in? In a set like this I'm not sure why there are cards with a 1:144 packs or 1:288 packs, why not have more of the common ones at least? Or like CZE do, even have a couple of chase set levels included in the box, it's not like they'd have to squeeze them in.

I'm just not sure there is much holding this release up into the "hype" zone. Admittedly I am not much of a Dr Who fan but I think most of this is going to settle quickly.

quote:

Originally posted by mykdude:
I'm just not sure there is much holding this release up into the "hype" zone. Admittedly I am not much of a Dr Who fan but I think most of this is going to settle quickly.

I have come across boxes now for under $100, both online and on shelf, and in both editions.

I am surprized there is not more interest in this set as all the auto's are new signers for dr who. There seams more interest in the topps sets auto's even though many have signed on multiple sets.

quote:

Originally posted by sittin9duck:
I am surprized there is not more interest in this set as all the auto's are new signers for dr who. There seams more interest in the topps sets auto's even though many have signed on multiple sets.

I suspect 'interest' might be the key word here. Although they are all new signers, there might not be a great deal of interest as there aren't many collectors who are interested in the characters so have even less interest in getting/paying for their autographs. I know I fall into that camp and wont be buying any boxes or cards from this release.

quote:

Originally posted by Kevin F:

quote:

Originally posted by sittin9duck:
I am surprized there is not more interest in this set as all the auto's are new signers for dr who. There seams more interest in the topps sets auto's even though many have signed on multiple sets.

I suspect 'interest' might be the key word here. Although they are all new signers, there might not be a great deal of interest as there aren't many collectors who are interested in the characters so have even less interest in getting/paying for their autographs. I know I fall into that camp and wont be buying any boxes or cards from this release.

I agree with Kevin's comments entirely. I bought the base set and binder direct from Rittenhouse as I could not guarantee finding a UK seller for each and I have since added two autograph cards bought from UK dealers, one because I liked the image and the other because I knew of the actor.

regards

John

Demand means everything and I think posters in this thread have repeatedly voiced several reasons why Series 11 & 12 was not going to be that well received by Doctor Who card collectors because of issues with content, price and general dissatisfaction with the show's storyline itself.

However this isn't bad news for Doctor Who card collectors because almost all of these autograph cards are affordable as they stand now. Even the boxes are approaching prices where you can make the argument that four common autograph cards may still get you $60 worth of content and you always have a shot at something a little bigger. The cards look very nice. At some point I think an avid Doctor Who follower will be tempted to add them to their collection, even if its just to feel complete.

Now for dealers or bulk sellers who just bought expecting to make money on this one, I think you are going to have to be lucky to get back cost.

quote:

Now for dealers or bulk sellers who just bought expecting to make money on this one, I think you are going to have to be lucky to get back cost.

This was the case with GOT Anniversary series 1. Many UK based dealers didn't take series 2 as they were burned by the first release. As much as I have loved RI releases over the years, their product is getting increasingly expensive and the autographs that people want people want most cost stupid money to help the dealer break even.

quote:

Originally posted by gmmk1964:
This was the case with GOT Anniversary series 1. Many UK based dealers didn't take series 2 as they were burned by the first release. As much as I have loved RI releases over the years, their product is getting increasingly expensive and the autographs that people want people want most cost stupid money to help the dealer break even.

So here's the problems with RA. These are only my impressions as a consumer and, if I'm wrong or overstating it, it's just how I feel.

For many years now RA has been propping up its product sellouts to distributors, dealers and bulk buyers via its Incentive cards. Buy more and you get a limited card or cards for free that you can sell to minimize any shortfalls in sales. This is why products always sell out from RA. What happens to card values after that or how well they hold up on the secondary market isn't their problem, but if the bulk sellers lose money they won't buy so much the next time around. That does become RA's problem and is why they keep trying to prop up their reliable customers. Remember that this is their whole distribution model and I have to say here that there is nothing wrong with this as a business strategy. Other card makers do it too, but maybe not so openly or so well or for so long.

Where RA is getting into trouble now is because the value of it's Incentive cards and Archive boxes are not making up for slow sales on well worn franchise titles like "Game of Thrones" and "Star Trek". Niche titles like "The Orville" and "The Umbrella Academy" and "Doctor Who" that are newer licenses don't carry enough demand for 10,000 box production runs.

They also don't have many $1,000 autograph card signers, which would be fine if RA hadn't decided to up every new box to $169.99 SRP. Now the wholesale price for bulk buyers is much lower than that, but they expect to have to do only minimal discounting to their own customer base and there is a built in profit margin. However when sales are slow that profit margin gets squeezed and, if it gets too low, dealers start selling at cost just to get rid of it and raise money. The last thing they want is cash in inventory that won't move off the shelf.

So when the boxes don't move sellers could break them, but if no big cards are found they lose just as much money as we regular collectors do when we break. Few breakers found those Clarke cuts and there were no other hugely expensive cards in the GoT Irons, but there were thousands of common hit cards and common signers for little money. People who stockpiled the boxes couldn't sell them without severe discounting and couldn't afford to risk breaking them themselves because they could lose even more.

Getting back to Doctor Who the diminished demand for the title, or perhaps just for this particular part of the title, simply added to the other issues that have been brewing. To me RA can't continue to go down this path without finally having an impact on the bottom line.

Cut production, cut cost and start making products for the card collectors of that title. Put the free Incentives in the boxes as surprises and stop making Archive boxes that are incomplete anyway. Stop putting duplicate base cards in a box, one base set per box is enough. Don't add an extra common hit, add that limited card. Awhile back I can remember reading Steve saying in reply to a forum post complaint that RA wasn't making product for the single box buyer or common card collector and hadn't been for a long time. Well that's fine as long as you can keep producing those big dollar cards for flippers who take everything you make, but when you can't you need card collectors who actually want cards to keep. Me thinks its time to revise the strategy before its too late.

quote:

Originally posted by Raven:

So here's the problems with RA.

Also, it is starting to look like their archived release information is not coming back. Given how many autograph cards are crossed into different sets I have to admit this lowers my favorability towards them as a company.

I always attributed this posted information as evidence they were on the side of the collector. I did find it odd that total box numbers were rarely posted though. I would have to find a clear picture of a sealed box to get this information for my database.

We can now find checklists for our past products via the "Product Checklists" link under "Products" on the website navigation menu. We will continue to add images to the newer checklists as time permits, so thank you for your patience.

Thanks for posting Robert.

quote:

Originally posted by Robert Kohlbus:
We can now find checklists for our past products via the "Product Checklists" link under "Products" on the website navigation menu. We will continue to add images to the newer checklists as time permits, so thank you for your patience.

Thanks Robert. That’s very helpful!