quote:

Originally posted by Hedgehog Witch:
There's some different signers amongst the Inscription cards too, which probably means they signed ordinary cards too that are sure to show up in a later set.

Iain Glen has inscriptions without regular design cards. That's the only other signer I'd be interested in.

I'm sure RA is planning many other Doctor Who sets. We need "Series 8 - 10" to connect the run. "Series 13" will go with the current "Series 14". There is certain to be more "Expansion" cards from all the years. There will have to be "Complete" and "Arts & Images" products, possibly in Part 1 and Part 2 each. Maybe something just on "Inscriptions" or "Quotes" too. Ideally RA will try to milk this title into "Game of Doctor Who".

quote:

I'm sure RA is planning many other Doctor Who sets. We need "Series 8 - 10" to connect the run. "Series 13" will go with the current "Series 14". There is certain to be more "Expansion" cards from all the years. There will have to be "Complete" and "Arts & Images" products, possibly in Part 1 and Part 2 each. Maybe something just on "Inscriptions" or "Quotes" too. Ideally RA will try to milk this title into "Game of Doctor Who".

Really?

Isn't the point of licensing a franchise like Doctor Who is the ability to make multiple sets from the available source material?

And isn't having legacy themes like "The Qotable" and "Art and Images" part of a company's branding?

There's years of product in the whole of Doctor Who. I'm curious how they will handle the earlier series that Steve has said they would explore. Not many signers left, so maybe something like the did with Bond and make a set within a set for earlier series that cannot supply any number of autos.

Ed

quote:

Originally posted by Scifi Cards:

quote:

I'm sure RA is planning many other Doctor Who sets. We need "Series 8 - 10" to connect the run. "Series 13" will go with the current "Series 14". There is certain to be more "Expansion" cards from all the years. There will have to be "Complete" and "Arts & Images" products, possibly in Part 1 and Part 2 each. Maybe something just on "Inscriptions" or "Quotes" too. Ideally RA will try to milk this title into "Game of Doctor Who".

Really?

Isn't the point of licensing a franchise like Doctor Who is the ability to make multiple sets from the available source material?

And isn't having legacy themes like "The Qotable" and "Art and Images" part of a company's branding?

There's years of product in the whole of Doctor Who. I'm curious how they will handle the earlier series that Steve has said they would explore. Not many signers left, so maybe something like the did with Bond and make a set within a set for earlier series that cannot supply any number of autos.

Ed

So since you asked me. Yes, really Ed. That's my opinion. Doctor Who is a franchise, but it's not Game of Thrones or Star Trek or even Bond to me. GoT had an international cast and drew in an international audience. To a lesser extent, so did Bond movies. Star Trek is much more a domestic product, but still with a decent international appeal thanks to the films. Doctor Who is well known to scifi fans, but very much a UK show. I myself never saw more than a handful of early episodes and I didn't connect to it at all. I don't personally know any Doctor Who fans, which is not to say that they don't turn up at NYCC.

My point is, the show is not really huge in the US. For the UK it's a different story. Doctor Who is an icon there and fans watch all the episodes and know even the minor actors. I know only those actors who I have seen in other work.

When Topps had the license for the earlier series, they did a few sets of pretty nice cards. But they did a lot of those signature cards and they didn't sell well, even though the box would seem cheap now. Topps Doctor Who got discounted and they dropped the license before it got to the more current episodes. I don't know how well it sold in the UK, but obviously not well enough to keep. Then came RA to pick it up and they have done a nice job as always, but is it a title to support all that branding? Is there enough demand for the cards in the major market to sustain prices as supply increases? Just how much does RA think a box/case is worth when each set will increase the supply and dilute the value of repeat star autographs, while the real card collectors of the title have been priced out?

But the great thing is that everyone can do what they want, and no one has to argue over opinions. Time will tell if the RA Doctor Who franchise does well or if it gets slashed in half like Series 11 - 12 boxes did, which I know happened.

Do you think it's fans of the show that purchase these boxes, cases etc anymore or have they all been priced out years ago and now it's just dealers and flippers who buy it and they don't really care what the show is.

quote:

Originally posted by wolfie:
Do you think it's fans of the show that purchase these boxes, cases etc anymore or have they all been priced out years ago and now it's just dealers and flippers who buy it and they don't really care what the show is.

At this point, I think most Doctor Who card collectors have either given up on boxes entirely or maybe, if they can, they break 1 or 2 boxes out of obsession and nostalgia more than anything else. I feel the same way about Game of Thrones, whose boxes I followed throughout the run until the last couple of sets.

It's not even that they couldn't spend the money, it's that they know they can get way more for the same money if they buy from breakers. When those breakers, who are flippers and dealers, don't cover their costs, that's when the product title will implode regardless of the branding.

The card collecting fans will still survive with many more opportunities to chase.

quote:

Originally posted by Scifi Cards:
....There's years of product in the whole of Doctor Who. I'm curious how they will handle the earlier series that Steve has said they would explore. ....

They are more likely to do the new Disney Doctor Who sooner rather than later, as they will have easier access to actors and possible costume cards, and it is the current show Disney/BBC want to push.

quote:

Originally posted by Raven:

quote:

Originally posted by Hedgehog Witch:
I can see several on the lists I'll be having a look at which are not in the "scarce and likely to be silly price bracket".

I think you'll have to point them out please. I'm looking at Tennant, Smith, Gillan, Tate and Kingston, and they're all SCARCE or EL. Most of the other names I don't recognize from anything I've seen.

Yes, we get it Raven, you don't have a clue about actors in shows outside of the USA, as you complain on about it every single time a set like this is released. Not everyone is as clueless. But to Brits, and a lot of other people, there are always some little actor gem cards in the ordinary range.
Most US show sets, the rest of us have no idea who a lot of the actors are either; IMDB is a good friend.

RA will be sure to milk the title, they always do, no point buying a licence if not. But the fact the show goes back to 1963, there's quite a lot of milk left in the udder for ideas.

I don't personally like the current Disney influenced Doctor Who...and it has definitely had some influence, dumbing things down for the Disney US audience. But also, the writing has just been really poor even on the more 'classic' episode type, IMO.

quote:

Originally posted by Raven:

quote:

Originally posted by Scifi Cards:

quote:

I'm sure RA is planning many other Doctor Who sets. We need "Series 8 - 10" to connect the run. "Series 13" will go with the current "Series 14". There is certain to be more "Expansion" cards from all the years. There will have to be "Complete" and "Arts & Images" products, possibly in Part 1 and Part 2 each. Maybe something just on "Inscriptions" or "Quotes" too. Ideally RA will try to milk this title into "Game of Doctor Who".

Really?

Isn't the point of licensing a franchise like Doctor Who is the ability to make multiple sets from the available source material?

And isn't having legacy themes like "The Qotable" and "Art and Images" part of a company's branding?

There's years of product in the whole of Doctor Who. I'm curious how they will handle the earlier series that Steve has said they would explore. Not many signers left, so maybe something like the did with Bond and make a set within a set for earlier series that cannot supply any number of autos.

Ed

So since you asked me. Yes, really Ed. That's my opinion. Doctor Who is a franchise, but it's not Game of Thrones or Star Trek or even Bond to me. GoT had an international cast and drew in an international audience. To a lesser extent, so did Bond movies. Star Trek is much more a domestic product, but still with a decent international appeal thanks to the films. Doctor Who is well known to scifi fans, but very much a UK show. I myself never saw more than a handful of early episodes and I didn't connect to it at all. I don't personally know any Doctor Who fans, which is not to say that they don't turn up at NYCC.

My point is, the show is not really huge in the US. For the UK it's a different story. Doctor Who is an icon there and fans watch all the episodes and know even the minor actors. I know only those actors who I have seen in other work.

When Topps had the license for the earlier series, they did a few sets of pretty nice cards. But they did a lot of those signature cards and they didn't sell well, even though the box would seem cheap now. Topps Doctor Who got discounted and they dropped the license before it got to the more current episodes. I don't know how well it sold in the UK, but obviously not well enough to keep. Then came RA to pick it up and they have done a nice job as always, but is it a title to support all that branding? Is there enough demand for the cards in the major market to sustain prices as supply increases? Just how much does RA think a box/case is worth when each set will increase the supply and dilute the value of repeat star autographs, while the real card collectors of the title have been priced out?

But the great thing is that everyone can do what they want, and no one has to argue over opinions. Time will tell if the RA Doctor Who franchise does well or if it gets slashed in half like Series 11 - 12 boxes did, which I know happened.

I have to disagree with you on your opinion that you have regarding Dr. Who being something only "hard core" USA or UK fans will care about or even know about. I live in Baltimore, MD USA - and I have chatted with many people from all types of fandoms and backgrounds (even people who don't know what a fandom is...), whether it be at work or at cons, restaurants, insert any public place here. I have mentioned Dr. Who many times to people (old and young of different nationalities and backgrounds, and those who admit they don't watch scifi) and they ALL knew what I was talking about and most have seen some episodes and could chat about those episodes or have at least heard of Dr. Who (the 1 exception being someone who recently came from a country where tv wasn't normally watched). I'm talking a lot of people. So, in my experience, it is more rare to find someone who has NOT heard of Dr. Who than someone who has. I've had more people tell me they've seen Dr. Who than GOT or Star Trek (especially GOT).

Dr. Who is a hot $$$ franchise and I think RA made a good decision to get the license. (I've also heard that whoever it is that owns the Dr. Who property charge a ton for licenses and are very picky about giving out the license, so it must not have been cheap for RA). The fans are also very rabid. I even think more so than GOT fans. Star Trek, maybe not (that's a level of rabidness that few can match). :-) I can't speak to Bond as I've never met a Bond fan, but even though I've never met a Bond fan I do know and acknowledge that it is a property that has a ton of fans and that any Bond product must make money and be popular - even though I don't know of any fans...

Regarding who is buying those boxes, I am not. But not due to the property or company. I've simply been priced out and disgusted by the industry and the greedy pricing (both from companies and a lot of secondary sellers)(it is also something to be said about inflation, but this is not the time nor place). So, I'm not collecting. I'm not even buying the few Xena cards I still don't have (there are Xena cards I don't have??? Shocker!!!!). Anyway, I have a feeling the fans of just about every franchise might feel the same way to some extent. Especially those of us who have been collecting for a while. I remember those packed $40 boxes worth way more after they were broken than sealed. Sigh. Those were the days!

Dr. Who has such an amazing amount of ridiculously talented actors/actresses that have both UK and International fame. To say that there are not many fans to justify a card set is laughable.

I think the only thing that will hurt this set (which I think has been happening for a while with cards) is the oversaturation of "smaller" actors with smaller parts that aren't worth as much $ as the "larger" actors in each box. Even if you never plan to sell your cards, it is still incredibly hard to swallow a box that you pay over, say, $100 for (I don't know how much these boxes are selling for) and pulling a couple of smaller $ signatures that you could have bought off eBay for way less $. That is the industry way now, especially since the cost of boxes makes the loss much much harder to take. A $40 or $60 box with lesser actors is much easier to stomach than one that is over $100. I think that will make most not be able to justify the ridiculous cost of boxes. Again, I think that has been happening for a while though. But, it will sell out at RA (or has? Has it been released yet? I have not been keeping up.) Whether or not the secondary sellers will sell out remains to be seen, but I think that is a card industry thing not a property issue.

Also, sports buyers/sellers have pushed some out of the hobby by pushing up pricing, etc. It is what it is. I think the "Golden" days of card collecting are over. It is sad, but again, it is what it is. Now, if RA comes out with another Xena set, I will sell my soul for it...

Hey Jessica, that's a lot of words to unpack.

I'll try to keep it short and on point. You say you disagree with me, but despite your defense of what you call a hot $$$ Doctor Who franchise, you aren't buying any more boxes. You say that as a card collector you have been priced out. OK, where's the argument there? Nowhere.

I did not say that no one in America has heard of Doctor Who, I said the show is a lot more popular in the UK. That's a fact I believe.

I also did not say that there are not many fans to justify a card set, so you need not laugh. What I said was Topps didn't do very well with their Who cards and RA is planning multiple Who product brands at high box/cases prices. Card collectors can't afford to take the risk of busting boxes even if they have the money. I think you would agree with that too.

And finally, I said that the increasing supply of Doctor Who cards will decrease their demand and the constant release of two or three annual sets with repeat signers will dilute the value of even the star autographs, which must stay high enough to support the ridiculous cost of bulk buying for the only people that are busting boxes, card dealers and both pro and amateur flippers.

That's the law of supply and demand and you can see it playing it out all over the hobby. Card makers are trying very hard to devise ways to make the same autograph stickers look different and retain the air of rarity. At least RA is still doing on-card signatures and that is the one thing that all card collectors prefer. No arguments.

quote:

Originally posted by Hedgehog Witch:

quote:

Originally posted by Raven:
I think you'll have to point them out please. I'm looking at Tennant, Smith, Gillan, Tate and Kingston, and they're all SCARCE or EL. Most of the other names I don't recognize from anything I've seen.

Yes, we get it Raven, you don't have a clue about actors in shows outside of the USA, as you complain on about it every single time a set like this is released. Not everyone is as clueless.

Actually I was asking for your help to identify some of the better actors whose names I don't recognize.

quote:

Originally posted by Raven:

quote:

Originally posted by Hedgehog Witch:

quote:

Originally posted by Raven:
I think you'll have to point them out please. I'm looking at Tennant, Smith, Gillan, Tate and Kingston, and they're all SCARCE or EL. Most of the other names I don't recognize from anything I've seen.

Yes, we get it Raven, you don't have a clue about actors in shows outside of the USA, as you complain on about it every single time a set like this is released. Not everyone is as clueless.

Actually I was asking for your help to identify some of the better actors whose names I don't recognize.

I won't go through them all, as I said, IMDB is a friend, but a couple of the ones I'll keep an eye on are Frances Barber and Stuart Milligan, both been in a ton of shows(& theatre) for decades. It all depends on price but I might look for a Steven Berkhoff, as I don't have him in my collection and missed any Bond card he might have done.

All of the cards are at least VL in this set, but we know from experience that even ELs of non main actors can go cheap, with patience. I picked up a couple of 'Scarce' GoT cards cheaply not long ago too. All the noise will, of course, be for the Doctors: Smith, Tennant, Eccleston and McGann, then the companions, Gillan, Tate, Darvill, Coleman, Agyeman, followed by Kingston. But there are several other names of interest, and some maybe be names that mean nothing, but when looked up are suddenly much more familiar. If you don't know them after a little research, then you don't know them...

So turns out I do know Frances Barber by face. I watch a lot of BBC mysteries and she seems to have been a frequent guest star on several shows, although not a name I picked out of the credits, I guess. She reminds a bit of Julie Graham, who finally came out last year In RA's Doctor Who autograph cards. Graham is a bit more of a leading character actor and it was great to finally find her signature, and at common prices no less. I snapped up a few of her inscription cards. I wish Lesley Manville would turn up somewhere.

Thanks for the clue.

quote:

Originally posted by Hedgehog Witch:


I won't go through them all, as I said, IMDB is a friend, but a couple of the ones I'll keep an eye on are Frances Barber and Stuart Milligan, both been in a ton of shows(& theatre) for decades.

I'd been looking for an Orla Brady Auto for Ages now she's signed for Picard and Who

quote:

Originally posted by hammer:

quote:

Originally posted by Hedgehog Witch:


I won't go through them all, as I said, IMDB is a friend, but a couple of the ones I'll keep an eye on are Frances Barber and Stuart Milligan, both been in a ton of shows(& theatre) for decades.

I'd been looking for an Orla Brady Auto for Ages now she's signed for Picard and Who

Exactly! I picked up her Picard card so probably won't add the DW one. Like London buses and all that...

quote:

Originally posted by Raven:
So turns out I do know Frances Barber by face. I watch a lot of BBC mysteries and she seems to have been a frequent guest star on several shows, although not a name I picked out of the credits, I guess. She reminds a bit of Julie Graham, who finally came out last year In RA's Doctor Who autograph cards. Graham is a bit more of a leading character actor and it was great to finally find her signature, and at common prices no less. I snapped up a few of her inscription cards. I wish Lesley Manville would turn up somewhere.

Thanks for the clue.

I wish for a Lesley Manville card too. The things she's been in and always been great.

I was hoping maybe Rachael Stirling might pop up at some point as well in a Who set...but if she's like her late mother, Diana Rigg, then she might not be into the whole fame/autograph thing; but I've liked her in so many things, like The Bletchley Circle, The Detectorists etc.
Oh, and I'd love an on card Keeley Hawes card. I have a sticker one from a Topps Who set...but would love to upgrade.

quote:

Originally posted by Raven:
Hey Jessica, that's a lot of words to unpack.

I'll try to keep it short and on point. You say you disagree with me, but despite your defense of what you call a hot $$$ Doctor Who franchise, you aren't buying any more boxes. You say that as a card collector you have been priced out. OK, where's the argument there? Nowhere.

I did not say that no one in America has heard of Doctor Who, I said the show is a lot more popular in the UK. That's a fact I believe.

I also did not say that there are not many fans to justify a card set, so you need not laugh. What I said was Topps didn't do very well with their Who cards and RA is planning multiple Who product brands at high box/cases prices. Card collectors can't afford to take the risk of busting boxes even if they have the money. I think you would agree with that too.

And finally, I said that the increasing supply of Doctor Who cards will decrease their demand and the constant release of two or three annual sets with repeat signers will dilute the value of even the star autographs, which must stay high enough to support the ridiculous cost of bulk buying for the only people that are busting boxes, card dealers and both pro and amateur flippers.

That's the law of supply and demand and you can see it playing it out all over the hobby. Card makers are trying very hard to devise ways to make the same autograph stickers look different and retain the air of rarity. At least RA is still doing on-card signatures and that is the one thing that all card collectors prefer. No arguments.

Sorry for the previous long post, I tend to always write long posts everywhere I write them nowadays :-) I'll try to keep this one short.

My whole point of the post was that it is the state of the hobby, not the franchise. Which is basically what you just said. I'm not buying due to the hobby. If I was collecting, I would be all over this. But the hobby has become something I don't like and I don't want to support it anymore. Also, I'm pairing down all my collections in my home for my future plans, so no more cards for me. :-) But again, hobby issue, not franchise.

(Also, when you speak of oversaturating the market with multiple redundant sets of franchises - that is the RA way, look at Star Trek, Bond, GOT, etc... Actually, all the manufacturers do it to be honest.)

quote:

Originally posted by Jessica:
My whole point of the post was that it is the state of the hobby, not the franchise. Which is basically what you just said. I'm not buying due to the hobby. If I was collecting, I would be all over this. But the hobby has become something I don't like and I don't want to support it anymore. But again, hobby issue, not franchise.

I hear you and I agree, the hobby can be very discouraging for collectors who want to keep their cards.

But RA is in my estimate the premiere non-sport card maker and has been setting the standard for this hobby for a long time. So, you can't say they are blameless when several years back Steve himself said that RA isn't making cards for the average collector anymore. They make cards to sell out to bulk buyers. They incentivize for distributors and dealers and case flippers and what happens on the secondary market is not their problem. Only selling out is their problem, and so far they have still been doing that.

It is a franchise issue when autographs show up in products when the character doesn't appear in the timeframe of that product. When you get a signature from a common signer in a Season 8 product when the character died in Season 2, that helps no one. When expansion cards get added to a Series that does't cover those characters, that helps if it's for star actors, but they still don't belong. Putting 3 or 4 autographs in a box doesn't mean increased value if they are low end signers or inscriptions from low end signers. Limiting the card range of a low end signer, doesn't make that person worthy of an EL. Providing multi case incentives is to benefit bulk buyers, not card collectors. Limiting promo cards to create a price is not the spirit of a promo card.

All those things, and a few I missed right now, are related to the practices of RA. In large part that has shaped the hobby into what it is now and been copied by other card makers. So yes, what we have now is the result of evolution, but not an evolution driven by card collectors for card collectors. This is where anyone could see it would wind up, expensive cards that are waiting to crash.

And we can't separate the franchises from the hobby.

quote:

Originally posted by Raven:

I hear you and I agree, the hobby can be very discouraging for collectors who want to keep their cards.

But RA is in my estimate the premiere non-sport card maker and has been setting the standard for this hobby for a long time. So, you can't say they are blameless when several years back Steve himself said that RA isn't making cards for the average collector anymore. They make cards to sell out to bulk buyers. They incentivize for distributors and dealers and case flippers and what happens on the secondary market is not their problem. Only selling out is their problem, and so far they have still been doing that.

It is a franchise issue when autographs show up in products when the character doesn't appear in the timeframe of that product. When you get a signature from a common signer in a Season 8 product when the character died in Season 2, that helps no one. When expansion cards get added to a Series that does't cover those characters, that helps if it's for star actors, but they still don't belong. Putting 3 or 4 autographs in a box doesn't mean increased value if they are low end signers or inscriptions from low end signers. Limiting the card range of a low end signer, doesn't make that person worthy of an EL. Providing multi case incentives is to benefit bulk buyers, not card collectors. Limiting promo cards to create a price is not the spirit of a promo card.

All those things, and a few I missed right now, are related to the practices of RA. In large part that has shaped the hobby into what it is now and been copied by other card makers. So yes, what we have now is the result of evolution, but not an evolution driven by card collectors for card collectors. This is where anyone could see it would wind up, expensive cards that are waiting to crash.

And we can't separate the franchises from the hobby.

Oh I completely agree with you on this. Although, all of this is happening with every franchise that has a card set, not just Dr. Who, which makes it the fault of the manufacturers and not the franchise.

But, yeah, I 100% agree with your assessment of the business of the hobby.

I've been looking at the RA website and they have made up quite a schedule for themselves. Doctor Who 5 - 7 is only a few days away. Next month House of the Dragon comes out with boxes at $269, $100 more than Doctor Who. In between there is the $300 expansion set for Umbrella Academy. Not a lot of time for sellers to spread out their funds.

And the odd part is that, at least through today, none of them have sold out yet. They are still available at the website shop. For that matter, the last Picard seems to still have available boxes.

Is it possible that stacking up products back-to-back at these prices might be forcing the bulk buyers to allocate their money just like card makers love to allocate their hot products? Seems like it would hard to keep ordering expensive cards when you haven't gotten the profits from getting rid of last month cards yet.

$269??!!!! A Box??!! OMG, that is ridiculous. Absolutely ridiculous. Highway robbery when most of the cards are the secondary actors or even pretty much extras. Wow. This is why the hobby is falling away. At these prices I am not surprised they haven't sold some things out! I also agree about having releases back to back. Especially in this economy. Ugh!