So here is how people get confused. For those familiar with PSA this slab is only grading the card and not authenticating the autopen signature......right?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2014-...72ffffdbc2%7Ciid%3A1

Oh, man. That is a mess. If the grader did not know about the autopen incident, is he at fault that the autopen looks legit since it is an ink signed signature?

What's your problem mykdude? Its a genuine autopen!

The PSA grading is for condition only. The autograph itself is not authenticated by PSA because that's not what it was submitted for and its not the service paid for in the deal. However, since it is a certified autograph card, if the auto were damaged, smeared, faded or missing, you would expect that PSA would subtract from the condition grade of the card or perhaps refuse to grade it.

Either an autopen doesn't qualify for a refusal by PSA or they simply didn't know about it without signature authentication being performed. Who knows when this card was slabbed? The autopens on Florida Georgia Line signers wasn't immediately discovered. It may have been graded before the scandal came out.

In any event some collectors do get confused by graded cards when they don't know that card condition and signature authentication are two different things. Unless the label says it specifically, it was not done. This label is pretty messed up because it has the words Signatures - Silver. That's just the description. They are not verifying the signature, which may well have passed a review prior to collectors discovering that all of Kelley's Panini Country Music cards had the same "exact" signature.

I can see all of that, my only question is why doesn't PSA make it known on their look up data base that this is a fake autograph?

I ran the number and there is nothing to inform the buyer that they are being screwed.

quote:

Originally posted by mykdude:
I can see all of that, my only question is why doesn't PSA make it known on their look up data base that this is a fake autograph?

Probably a liability issue. . .

quote:

Originally posted by mykdude:
I can see all of that, my only question is why doesn't PSA make it known on their look up data base that this is a fake autograph?

I ran the number and there is nothing to inform the buyer that they are being screwed.

Basically, they say it's authentic "as released" by the manufacturer.

I've basically been told their policy is that "if the card is authentic, then the manufacturer guarantees the autograph is authentic."

So they pass all authenticity off on the manufacturer. And Panini has been silent on this one for far too long.

Ed

quote:

Originally posted by mykdude:
I can see all of that, my only question is why doesn't PSA make it known on their look up data base that this is a fake autograph?

I ran the number and there is nothing to inform the buyer that they are being screwed.

Sometimes I think you don't know when I'm not being serious with you, but I like the laughing face to get it across.

I did agree with you and was just trying to add the details for other readers who may not have known that Kelley did not sign the cards which Panini by default guaranteed.

My "what's your problem?" line was a friendly joke. I know your problem and of course you were right to point out the card. There is no such thing as a "genuine autopen". its a mechanically produced facsimile signature that should never have gotten the approval of the signer, who was paid for a authentic signature, or been accepted by Panini if anyone was paying attention to the identically signed stickers.

More over, not mentioned is the price tag on this PSA slabbed autopenned card. Since the autograph is not valid, how much does anyone think the card is worth even if it has a high condition grade? I know the answer and you do too.

PSA is not going to make anything known. They are sorry you brought the whole thing up.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Raven,

Actually I didn't think we were in any sort of disagreement at all. I laughed at your autopen comment.

Then you went on to explain the differences in PSA grading and I responded. An authentication company who is making crazy stupid money and does not ensure the authenticity that we collectors are supposed to trust is a problem.

As an example, I can see that PSA could make a few early mistakes in authenticating the Florida Georgia Line. However; once the autopen fact is established it would be very simple to adjust their database with a note stating that all of these cards are not with a genuine signature.

In fact, because none of the big 3 imports a photo of the item into the DB and their descriptions are super generic, it is a wide open door for fraud.

quote:

Originally posted by Raven:

Sometimes I think you don't know when I'm not being serious with you, but I like the laughing face to get it across.

Excellent. I think I'm a lot more pessimistic than you are because I don't expect these companies to do the right thing when they are making money off each other. That's really what the trading card hobby has evolved into as a business structure. It's a symbiotic relationship between many separate entities including card makers, card distributors, dealers, sellers, grading services, autograph authentication services, retail outlets, auction sites and selling platforms among others. Plus you can find middlemen looking for their cut at every level.

Yes, the hobby is fun and all card collectors want is a card they like at a fair price. However on the business end of it, a whole host of other things are going on and sometimes it accidentally gets revealed. Sometimes certified autopens and graded trimmed cards turn up and its news for awhile, but insiders are loathe to call each other out because fraud hurts everybody. You can say that about almost any industry, dirty laundry doesn't get aired out unless it can't be helped.

As Ed said, Panini hasn't owned up to the autopens, so why should PSA warn anybody when the card itself is authentic? Well what they actually should do is to just refuse to grade a card when the autograph is known not to be hand signed by the person. Or add an asterisk to the registry if it was graded prior to that information coming out. But then that might be awkward for Panini, who has not done anything to replace or even acknowledge these 2014 cards to have facsimile signatures. And it might be awkward for people holding the card or for sellers who might get complaints from buyers who bought it from them. It becomes a ripple effect and pessimistic me doesn't think they will change policy just to get it right.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Raven,

Same seller

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2014-...e6ffffe9c2%7Ciid%3A1

It would be interesting to check the population reports to see how many Brian Kelley and Tyler Hubbard Panini Country Music autograph cards were graded by the main services.

There was also the Dak Prescott Panini Prizm Football autograph that caused fits since it was pretty expensive. Beckett went on record as refusing to authentic the signature, but I imagine the card could still be graded, at least under the PSA standard of it being an authentic card.

quote:

Originally posted by Raven:
It would be interesting to check the population reports to see how many Brian Kelley and Tyler Hubbard Panini Country Music autograph cards were graded by the main services.

When I looked up the first auction I think it was saying that it was the only one graded. I made an inquiry to the seller about what part of the card was actually graded. They were honest and said the signature was not graded but could be if one where to spend the extra money. I thanked them and said thanks for clarifying that as I had read that all of the Panini Florida Georgia Line cards were auto pen................no reply.

Yeah, the seller's description is accurate as far as it goes and of course he/she can ask any price they want. If you notice in the specifics under Autograph Authentication it states Panini, not PSA, which is perfectly true. So to be fair, is the seller obligated to state something that Panini has never confirmed? No, not really. This is why buyers have to check stuff out whenever a card is more than throw away money.

Grading services generate "population reports" that record how many copies of a specific card was submitted and the breakdown of all the grades issued for it by that service. I don't bother with grading statistics myself, but there is a way to look it up and find out how many of the Panini Country Music Kelley and Hubbard autograph cards got graded if you know how to do it. I'm not sure that there would be a whole lot of them because really, how popular are these guys? I don't want them. However a few submissions may turn up if the cards are not being flat out rejected for condition grading as well and it looks like PSA accepted at least these two.

My problem with pop reports is that it only services that particular grading company. Just like CGC and their list of how many graded comics there are at each level. There are at least two other authenticating companies and a ton of collectors who will never use one. CGC has no clue how many 9.4 Star Wars #1 there actually are in existence.

I know I saw one of their "rare" dual signature cards sell for almost $300 a few months back. Man! They are going to be pissed when they find out.