Just finished opening a box of Star Wars the Force Awakens series 2, and was very disappointed with the collation of the cards in the box! The pile of inserts was larger than the pile of base set cards, which should make any card collector happy, but when you look at the real problem it gets frustrating! I think it's a 100 card set, as that's the last number on the final card, but ended up with 37 cards in total, besides the 21 duplicates! The inserts, sorry Topps, are not really a barn burner in the slightest! I don't know about you, but I like ending up with at least a base set, that's easy to get not an emptying of my wallet to get one! The inserts are pretty much what you'd expect, variations of the base set with different colours, I'm so thrilled (YAWN!) I'm not into buying a case of this, so I can get a set of base cards, I've got other things to put my money on like keeping the roof over my head!

This is getting pretty common on the premium titles all of a sudden. Its not just TOPPS.

The reduction in the number of cards in a pack and the number of packs in a box, coupled with an increase in the seeded insert and parallel cards, plus base sets that have more than 90 cards, leave you missing a lot of base cards. But the added insult is that you can get duplicates on the inserts and base cards you already have. Leaving you short even more cards than the math would suggest.

Now what are you supposed to do? Buy enough boxes to make a base of course, but there is no guarantee that you will buy the boxes that have the right cards in them that you need.

So before someone else says it, this is the card manufacturers' response to giving collectors what they asked for, base sets that have value. Base cards that are practically hits all by the themselves because the ratios are just as high in some cases.

But we didn't ask for shrinking contents. And we didn't ask for duplicates from lousy collation. And we didn't ask for base sets that we can't put together unless we buy them complete because it is not cost effective, even with their higher value.

In short, I agree with you.

It's the same with sports cards too, which I also collect, pretty much abandoned one set I was trying to finish as it just got too costly to try and full base set! It really sucks when you have as many of 10+ of one card, but cannot find just a handful of cards to finish it, I guess the card companies think we are all rich people with money to burn on their product! Most of the inserts are pretty much lame excuses at making card collecting "fun" but just comes out as just more junk cards, which are in reality not worth much of anything at all! Love the boxes, like the one I just opened, with a piece of foam at the bottom to make it feel like there's a huge number of packs! Try putting it in a smaller box, less cardboard to use, as they waste enough of it on lame cards anyway! Sorry, an autograph card here and there are okay, but still not the recipe for adding in all the lame inserts!

You may be able to trade inserts for a base set. . . if not it looks like you can buy a base set for under $12 shipped.

quote:

Originally posted by webjon:
You may be able to trade inserts for a base set. . . if not it looks like you can buy a base set for under $12 shipped.

If that is an accurate price quote, it kind of defeats the whole purpose of the thing, doesn't it? If a limited base set that takes multiple boxes to complete is still being dumped for $12, how is that better than a $5 base set you could have made in one box?

It isn't. It's just as bad, if not worse. So much for adding value.

Someone mentioned in another Star Wars post one of the high end 2016 or 2017 sets, in which it took about a case to put together a base set

And yet base sets for this set could be found "you know where" for $ 50 to 75, so what does that say about demand ?

To me, it says that dealers broke the boxes for the "hits" and then tried to make some money putting together affordable base sets

Exactly.

Base sets sell cheap because of supply and demand. Even at a limited supply there isn't sufficient demand.

What is a seller clearing on a $12 set after taking out shipping and fees? $6-7?

The numbers don't lie -- there just isn't demand.

Really? No demand at all?

You don't think this is what happens when card collectors are discouraged from buying overpriced boxes and simply turn to the secondary market for the pieces of what they want? You don't think its the dealers and big breakers who are dumping anything that not's a premium hit out on to that secondary market, where it is a race to the bottom for them just to get rid of it?

Sorry, but its a heck of a lot more complicated than just saying there is no demand. Why is there no demand? Why are dealers collectively setting such low prices for base sets? Do they expect collectors not to wait for cheap cards when they know they are coming?

Having seen the abuses and bad practices that ruined the sports card market for collectors, the non-sport market has followed in its footprints. It took longer and it involves a smaller scale, but they have gotten to the same place anyway. They killed the goose.

I wasn't trying to figure out why there isn't demand. . . Just pointing out the numbers.

That said, this isn't anything new, despite all the changes in set composition, and the evolution with how product is purchased, most base sets since the 80s, perhaps into the 70s can be bought for around the same $12 shipped (or less) price.

Yes, but those cards that have not increased in price very much over the years still came out of $20 boxes at the time. In fact, people were buying by the pack in the 70's and 80's. You put together your card set one card at a time and there was no such thing as a premium hit, just a star card. Non-sport cards were there too, but the availability and fanbase was scaled way back as compared to sports.

I'm not disagreeing with you when you talk about the lack of demand, just saying that it sounds like the card collectors are being blamed for not buying enough or wanting enough. It's a compulsive hobby, long time collectors are not walking away or cutting way back because they suddenly have no interest.

They still have the same level of interest, but common sense gets in the way and there is less satisfaction. You can't sustain this hobby only on the high end when the dedicated base has been forced to erode. If all you are doing is catering to the flippers and speculators, they don't want the 95% of cards that are not some kind of hit. And even those hits still have to be sold to a collector in the end to realize any profits.

So where does that leave the hobby when the hardcore collectors have retreated, not because they want to, but because they just can't keep doing what they want to. It's complicated.

I don't see it as card collectors being blamed for anything. . . As someone said to me earlier today "buying a box is a very expensive way to collect a base set."

As far as catering to the flippers and speculators (and I'll add dealers and high end collectors)-- effectively multiple box/case buyers . . . those are the people who are buying most of the product. . . Without those buyers there likely wouldn't be much, if any, product at all.

To me it looks like Topps are going back to how things were in 1960's UK when collecting cards then was not very easy at all. The only manufacturer I can remember was A & BC who issued cards under licence from Topps as well as their own issues. These cards were only available in local newsagents, there were not specialist stores like they are today. For the majority of issues the newsagent was often reluctant to sell too many packs in one go unless he had more than one box. They certainly did not buy cases unless the product was very popular.

It seems to me that the heyday of card collecting has passed.

regards

John

quote:

Originally posted by webjon:
As far as catering to the flippers and speculators (and I'll add dealers and high end collectors)-- effectively multiple box/case buyers . . . those are the people who are buying most of the product. . . Without those buyers there likely wouldn't be much, if any, product at all.

But by that logic, those buyers are purchasing large orders to sell and if many card collectors are gone or just won't fork over the kind of money that provides a profit, who are they selling to, each other?

You can't have a collectibles market without collectors, big, small and average. You can go back to trading cards for kids, but not as an adult collectible. You can do retail, but hobby will be so exclusive you won't need dealers to handle the customers. There are not a whole bunch of reliable dealers today and there will be a lot fewer when there aren't enough high end collectors to go around.

I'm just following your logic and its a dead end. I don't think it will go this way because I'm not that pessimistic. There will always be card collectors and the manufacturers will eventually come back to them and put at least $50 of product in $80 and over boxes. How about tossing in an incentive card once in awhile? The average card collector used to buy a lot of stuff in total per year. They are not throw away customers, they are the repeat business for dealers.

However there is a ton of cards out there now, so if that doesn't happen for new cards, its pretty easy to keep collecting without staying current with the latest and greatest. The hobby will survive in one way or another way, but I would agree that we have probably seen its heyday already.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Raven,

quote:

Originally posted by Raven:

quote:

Originally posted by webjon:
As far as catering to the flippers and speculators (and I'll add dealers and high end collectors)-- effectively multiple box/case buyers . . . those are the people who are buying most of the product. . . Without those buyers there likely wouldn't be much, if any, product at all.

But by that logic, those buyers are purchasing large orders to sell and if many card collectors are gone or just won't fork over the kind of money that provides a profit, who are they selling to, each other?

High end collectors/Speculators -- i.e. people who are buying and holding hits, parallels, rare chase cards, etc.

quote:

Originally posted by <<<<ALDO_NOVA>>>>:
Just finished opening a box of Star Wars the Force Awakens series 2, and was very disappointed with the collation of the cards in the box!

A bit late to the party as usual but just in passing, some time ago I ventured away from my "2000 year limit" to buy a title I actually had a an interest in, Downton Abbey. I bought two boxes and never made a base set so bough another box. This still left me with 11 cards short of a base set and a decision never to but Rittenhouse product ever again.

quote:

Originally posted by btlfannz:

quote:

Originally posted by <<<<ALDO_NOVA>>>>:
Just finished opening a box of Star Wars the Force Awakens series 2, and was very disappointed with the collation of the cards in the box!

A bit late to the party as usual but just in passing, some time ago I ventured away from my "2000 year limit" to buy a title I actually had a an interest in, Downton Abbey. I bought two boxes and never made a base set so bough another box. This still left me with 11 cards short of a base set and a decision never to but Rittenhouse product ever again.

Shame to blame Rittenhouse for a product they didn't make. Downton Abbey was a Cryptozoic product.

Ed

Ed! Curious to see your thoughts on base sets.

You are one of the few people I know who is out setting up at new conventions with cards and effectively advertising for the entire industry. . .

The manufacturers should be doing as much as they can to support people who are out setting up at shows trying to drum up interest and get new collectors. . . I hope they are at least sending you piles of promos to stick in the hands of anyone who walks by. . .

While I love to see manufacturers at Philly it's preaching to the choir.

Question is, are the different coloured parallels really worth anything, as they are just really a way of driving card collectors crazy? Nobody really sees them as anything that great anyway, as my card collecting friends see them as a pain too, as if the card manufacturers are just trying too make us buy more product! Wonder why a lot of card manufacturers went belly up, like Inkworks and their redemption cards, which popped up every time you opened a box! Bad enough you had to pay money to send it to them, but most of the redempted cards were for cards that are worthless now!

Base cards getting rarer is a good thing, I had a journey to the force awakens box two years ago and still need a few cards for a set.