Just an observation really but NSU Card Talk is no longer a family friendly forum. While posting nudity and sexual images is quite rightly still frowned upon from a great a height, the same concern is not observed for horrific and gory images.

In my opinion, quite a few of the current sketch card postings for the Walking Dead, Deadworld and Night of the Living Dead are not suitable for younger members of families to see and should not be allowed on this forum. Oh, and yes I am being a bit hypocritical as I've posted some NotLD sketches that are 'not acceptable'.

While I realise that this is essentially a US site where images of gore, horror and violence are seen as being quite acceptable, I think a little more thought could be given to what is acceptable for a worldwide family audience. At the very least, threads that include this sort of imagery should carry a warning similar to the current 'spoilers' idea.

quote:

Originally posted by Kevin F:
While I realise that this is essentially a US site where images of gore, horror and violence are seen as being quite acceptable, I think a little more thought could be given to what is acceptable for a worldwide family audience. At the very least, threads that include this sort of imagery should carry a warning similar to the current 'spoilers' idea.

This is a good idea. One of the other forums I am a member of has coloured prefixes available for threads (eg For Sale). These are very visible. If possible, it would be great if Card Talk could have a similar idea, with prefixes such as 'Spoilers', 'Erotica', 'Violence' etc.

It's the classic sex/violence divide between Europe and the USA that so often results in films getting different cuts and certifications depending on which side of the pond the film is being shown.

You have a valid point,the problem is that these days almost everything seems to be offensive to someone and you end up with very vanilla content .

quote:

Originally posted by Triple-Frog:
You have a valid point,the problem is that these days almost everything seems to be offensive to someone and you end up with very vanilla content .

You are correct but this particular forum makes a point of proclaiming its 'Family Friendly' nature and content. If it is only seen to apply any strict criteria to one area, i.e. nudity, while allowing a free for all in others, i.e. gore and horror, then it can no longer lay claim to being 'Family Friendly'. If providing substance to its claim means exclusively toned down images in all areas, then so be it. Otherwise, either drop the Family Friendly claim altogether or introduce a means of clearly identifying material/threads that are not suitable for younger readers.

Perhaps we can have a spoiler button....
We can put the images in that tag, and then "hide" them, until you push the button.

This would also cut down on the pages if someone is going to post 10 pictures of what they pulled from a case etc etc.

I am always concerned about young people being exposed to frightening images in any forum (no pun intended).

In this case, I think it'd be much easier for concerned parents to, at least in the case of such clearly named threads as "Walking Dead", "Deadworld", and "Night of the Living Dead" (basically, titles with the word "Dead" in them are a good catch all), simply tell their children not to click on those links as there is almost certain to be material there they won't like (find yucky, etc., whatever your lingo). This is preferable to restricting posts that show what are, after all, pack pulled cards that have passed at least one inspection for "decency", that of the manufacturer.

I would hope any website visited by a child is first visited by their parent(s). In the case of the NSU board, there are often conversations/topics that wouldn't make a lot of sense to younger children anyway. If one has a young child who collects Transformers cards, for instance, the child absolutely should be encouraged to read and participate in the discussions about those on this board, and even better, post their own cards. (We certainly need all the younger collecters we can get).

But rather than trying to decide what is appropriate or not for the entire board (including huge sections not likely to be visisted by young children), it would be better for parents to instead add to their favorites bar the NSU board threads for "Breakdowns", "News and Rumors", "New Promo Releases", etc., related to the Transformers, in this example. That way the child could easily access, view, and post to those specific pages, which the parent really can expect to be G rated. The child would begin by using only the links created by the parent, but as they got older, with their card collecting hopefully fluorishing, they could be encouraged to navigate the larger site.

With the new combination of a harder edge pop culture licenses and the emergence of Breygent and some of the smaller up and coming card companies as bigger players in the sketch card game, the filter for what can be drawn on a sketch card has certainly been reduced. When sketches were all from Topps, Skybox, Upper Deck, etc., you could be pretty sure a couple layers of tastefulness/censorship (or any other word you like) had already rendered the pack-inserted sketch cards essentially all-ages from the very get-go. By the time the sketches were placed in packs, not only had the licensors rejected any sketches at all likely to be controversial, but the bigger card companies, themselves with brands understood to be all-ages called for an additional level of decorum that could even, at times, cause them to reject sketches the lincensor had actually approved, in addition to many more stories of them rejecting cards before even submitting them to the licensor for approval.

To sum up, considering the source of the cards in question: Walking Dead (a TV show that would be an R rated movie), Deadworld (a violent mature readers comic), and Night of the Living Dead (the seminal, early zombie thriller that still packs a punch), it is reasonable for those cards to be loaded with gory images, not only on the sketch cards, but on the base and regular chase cards as well. How could they even exist without them? They would not be true to the subject whose popularity allowed the set to be made in the first place. Such a set would serve no one. We can all agree those cards are not for children, but should they have not been made at all since there is the off chance a child might one day see them? That would be the equivalent to restricting the board in any way for this reason, really.

It would be a better thing for the kids and greater card collecting alike if parents just explain to their child why they should avoid clicking on links the word "Dead" in the title, that way, the child is protected by their loving and engaged parent, and the rest of us get to see the cards.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: chesspieceface,

Are there any children on the forum? I know it is difficult to tell but i have never got the feeling from posts that there were.

chesspieceface, I think you are missing the point. NSU Card Talk promotes the fact that it is a Family Friendly forum with the implication that parents can allow their children to visit the site without any need for them to worry about what they might find here or take any extra steps to limit access to the forum. The moderators will pull any sketch cards that are overtly sexy or that are considered rude but sketch cards that would give my 13 year-old niece nightmares can be posted with impunity. On a Family Friendly forum, that should not happen.

That the images in the sets are being approved by the card manufacturers is irrelevant. The only aspect to be looked at here is that a Family Friendly web forum (I really hope I've repeated that often enough now) should have consistent rules about what is and is not acceptable to allow people to post as images.

Also, if you were a young child and your parents told you not to or explained to you why you shouldn't click on something then what would be the first thing you clicked on once they were out of sight ? Be honest

quote:

Originally posted by Kevin F:
That the images in the sets are being approved by the card manufacturers is irrelevant. The only aspect to be looked at here is that a Family Friendly web forum (I really hope I've repeated that often enough now) should have consistent rules about what is and is not acceptable to allow people to post as images.

Also, if you were a young child and your parents told you not to or explained to you why you shouldn't click on something then what would be the first thing you clicked on once they were out of sight ? Be honest

It's just a really fine line. What about those Family Guy sketches with cartoon butts shown. Some people would find them very objectionable, others not at all. Who's right? The problem is, who decides?

It's just easier, and more importantly, fair for all involved, that parents do the work of monitoring what their child sees, not forum moderators. A vigilant moderator can pull every other sketch card and still might get a complaint. Are they to acquiesce to every single complaint, even if the large majority would find the image in question innocuous?

From a pure business standpoint, there may come a time when NSU indeed has to decide who their readers are. In tough economic times, it could well come down to which demographic allows the magazine to remain profitable, the all ages one, or one for older collectors, and hence which one they will cater to going forward. I think they have struck a good balance over the years, being very G rated overall, without greatly limiting the discussions of those card collectors who are collecting brands made for older audiences, which have greatly increased of late.

As for what kids being unable to resist doing something they were specifically told not to do, absolutely, haha, I get that, and wouldn't argue with you. Still, in my own experience with something related to this, I can tell you I might've been an exception to that rule.

I was a little kid in the late 1970's and I was taken to movies I probably shoudn't have been ALL the time, and it is for sure that a lot of us were, since there were always lots of kids at R Rated movies I went to, especially the drive-in. Anyway, such violent images did tend to disturb me, and having told my parents that, they'd tell me when to cover my eyes, and I would. Natural curiousity would make me peek sometimes, but the regret was usually instantaneous, and eventually, I heeded their warnings very well, figuring out how not only cover my eyes, but sometimes my ears at the same time!

The key was that I learned very early on that movies weren't real. Over time, I've even become a fan of certain horror movies. But all kids should know that fictional stories told for purposes of entertainment did not happen, and that drawings on cards aren't real things, no matter how awful they look. For that matter, hearing bad words will not split our eardrums and seeing naked people won't melt our eyes out.

It is the parents, the blessed people who chose to continue the human lifeline on this planet, who need to tell their children these things, and not rely on everyone else in the world to alter their own behavior. Kids can understand that which people take the time to explain to them. And best of all, no one else will be made to restrict their own activities to essentially aid a parent or guardian in doing a job they have taken upon themselves (often heroically, I gladly allow) to do.

Apparently your children don't watch tv or read the paper or even talk to their friends. Maybe they don't go to the movies or read comics. But to say this site is not family friendly is just ridiculous. With all the violence on TV, in the media and just discussed amongst others, a picture of a vampire or zombie is nothing compared to the evil that occurs every day on this planet. If you hide children from the truth, the only thing they will learn about life will be lies.

quote:

Originally posted by beamer:
Apparently your children don't watch tv or read the paper or even talk to their friends. Maybe they don't go to the movies or read comics. But to say this site is not family friendly is just ridiculous. With all the violence on TV, in the media and just discussed amongst others, a picture of a vampire or zombie is nothing compared to the evil that occurs every day on this planet. If you hide children from the truth, the only thing they will learn about life will be lies.

All of which applies equally well to sex and nudity, but they are excluded from this site on the grounds that this is a Family Friendly site. You cannot exclude one without applying the same restrictions to the other.

I could also add the old maxim "Two wrongs don't make a right". The high levels of violence portrayed on TV and in the media don't mean it's alright to show gory, horrific pictures here on this forum. Not exposing children to this sort of imagery is not hiding them from the truth, it is simple common sense.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Kevin F,

My final word for today before heading to bed. Does anyone on here seriously expect me to believe that they consider it is perfectly acceptable for children to see images like these on a Family Friendly forum ?

quote:

Originally posted by Kevin F:
Just an observation really but NSU Card Talk is no longer a family friendly forum. While posting nudity and sexual images is quite rightly still frowned upon from a great a height, the same concern is not observed for horrific and gory images.

In my opinion, quite a few of the current sketch card postings for the Walking Dead, Deadworld and Night of the Living Dead are not suitable for younger members of families to see and should not be allowed on this forum. Oh, and yes I am being a bit hypocritical as I've posted some NotLD sketches that are 'not acceptable'.

While I realise that this is essentially a US site where images of gore, horror and violence are seen as being quite acceptable, I think a little more thought could be given to what is acceptable for a worldwide family audience. At the very least, threads that include this sort of imagery should carry a warning similar to the current 'spoilers' idea.

I do agree with you that images of gore and violence can be every bit as offensive as nudity and sexual images, if not more so. However this is a very thorny topic because obviously everyone has there own idea of how much is acceptable and where the line is that must be crossed. I'm sure that you will get numerous opinions on this one, but let me just note a couple of points in response to a couple of your comments.

From a technical standpoint, I don't know how NSU can ensure that children will not see any photo on the forums that there parents might find objectionable, short of editing out all but the most innocent of images. You could provide a rating on the thread, like the movie ratings for G or R, but really how does that stop anyone from gaining access. It is the parents' job to monitor their children's online activity. Rather than label the site no longer family friendly, block access from your end if that's how you feel.

The part about being a US site, as that means its prone to questionable content, is frankly a bit much. Many non-sport card manufacturers are UK based and some of them have produced the kind of images you are talking about. All of these shows are quite popular there, even the zombie ones. I don't think family friendly means any less in the US than where you are.

Now as to the question of how many children are viewing the forum, I have no idea. They are not posting to be sure, but anyone can view as a guest. Much of the non-sport card market today is adult material, God knows the prices require a good job. Personally I think young children would look at other sites before this one, but I'm not claiming to know, that is their parents concern.

Finally, let me say that if there is a thread or photos that you feel are inappropriate, why not make a complaint to NSU? Maybe other people are thinking the same thing. Maybe no one is, but at least you will have your say.

quote:

Originally posted by Kevin F:
My final word for today before heading to bed. Does anyone on here seriously expect me to believe that they consider it is perfectly acceptable for children to see images like these on a Family Friendly forum ?

These are lines on paper and cannot harm children. They are not real. There is no drawing you can show that will prove the point you are trying to make when the simple fact of the matter is sensitive kids should have been told why they shouldn't click on a thread called "Deadworld" in the first place. But, as you pointed out, if their curiousity gets them better of them and they click on the thread anyway, they will either, like me, learn not to do that anymore, or else they will find it doesn't bother them so much, and will continue to do so.

It is up to the parents to protect their own children and help them discern what is appropriate subject matter, not the rest of the world to do it for them, based on sujective, nebulous, and ever changing social mores.

Watch the evening news and you'll find this world is not "family friendly", whatever that even means. It is the responsibillity of parents to help their children understand the difference between fantasy and reality. Children who have been properly equipped to do so tend to find the world to be a far less scary place.

Im sorry but there is nothing wrong with these images at all. Here's an old saying for you. If there is something on TV that you don't want to watch, change the channel but don't throw out the TV. And if you keep your children from these things without explaining them, you do more harm than good. I hope you monitor your children every second on the internet. Because I will bet the farm that their curiosity will get the best of them and they will look up things you might not think are reasonable for them to be exposed to. How do you monitor your children when you are not home??? You really think they are polishing their halos and not surfing for things that are questionable or flipping thru the channels looking for a good horror movie. What about the history channel. When a program comes on about Hitler and the Holocaust, do you turn that off too? Explain the reality of things to children and they will grow to become better adults. Leave Card talk alone. It is fine just the way it is.

Interesting thread.
As a parent, I find myself inclined to follow Chess's line of thinking. It's rather my job to monitor what they're viewing. But, NSU wants to be FF, not so much because children visit this site, but because parents do with a children on their knee or in the room or whatever and we like to be sure the content passes muster.
But, this seems a legit, if diffucult question to raise. Diffucult because nudity is easy to monitor....ickiness not so much. What offends one may not offend others. WHich makes it diffucult to address.
I like the idea of tagging threads with some kind of tag line to alert parents to give it a heads up. It may be worth bringing up at our next moderator pool party.

When the thread is entitled The Walking Dead as opposed to Mary Poppins what more warning do you need about what the content is going to be.

quote:

Originally posted by wolfie:
When the thread is entitled The Walking Dead as opposed to Mary Poppins what more warning do you need about what the content is going to be.

Snicker, agreed

quote:

Originally posted by STCardGeek:
Interesting thread.
As a parent, I find myself inclined to follow Chess's line of thinking. It's rather my job to monitor what they're viewing. But, NSU wants to be FF, not so much because children visit this site, but because parents do with a children on their knee or in the room or whatever and we like to be sure the content passes muster.

Many thanks for picking up on and commenting on the main point of this thread. Regardless of whose job it is to monitor children and their activities, NSU has declared itself to be Family Friendly. As such, it has to act consistantly with regard to what it allows to be posted to remain within the remit of being FF. My point is that it is not doing that where gory, horrific and downright disturbing images are concerned.

I would be interested to hear whether Tim Shay and Chris Manuel see their work as 'lines on paper' or 'disturbing images' or something else entirely ? And, of course, whether they would consider them to be Family Friendly

Little Johnny is sitting on daddy's knee and playing with his Yu-gi-oh cards while daddy decides to log onto Card Talk and see what's new in the world of non-sport cards. "Hey! There are some new posts about "Killer Zombies from Allentown", daddy says to himself. The link is clicked and there are examples of sketch cards of zombies feasting on the brains of terrified Philly Show attendees. Why, there's even a digital sell sheet that shows all sorts of zombie-feasting art!

Whose fault is it if little Johnny sees the pictures? Is it Card Talk's fault for doing exactly what it's designed to do in providing information to non-sport card collectors? Or could daddy be at fault for not showing a little parental responsibility by allowing little Johnny to see things that aren't appropriate?

"But kids log can log onto Card Talk when daddy's not around!" Yeah, and little Johnny can log onto a lot of other sites when daddy's not around too.

"Card Talk shouldn't allow such graphic images to be posted where children might see it!" Why not? It's not Card Talk's responsibility to be a child's parent. If a parent doesn't want little Johnny to see images of popular trading cards, then the parent needs to monitor what little Johnny is doing online. And where is this proverbial line of offensive images drawn? Not too long ago, someone was offended by topless male Olympians. Should Card Talk ban those images because it might bother someone. Yes, that person was an adult and this conversation pertains to children, but the premise is the same.

Card Talk is a message board that is freely provided by Non-Sport Update magazine which is a business. That magazine mostly deals with cards that are new or upcoming. Some of the things that are popular right now are cards about zombies, death, gore, etc. The magazine covers these topics and its readers obviously want to discuss those topics and share ideas, opinions and even examples.

No one here is saying that this sort of thing should be banned from Card Talk, but that it should be regulated by Card Talk. As one, long-time member has said, though, should it really be a shock when a person clicks on the topic of a card title about the undead and see images of the undead? The topic titles ARE the means of regulating these things. If someone is bothered by seeing artwork showing gory images, then that person shouldn't be clicking on titles that deal with such topics.

Almost anyone can breed children. It takes a responsible adult to actually be a parent.