I got a copy of the Wrapper a few years ago and thought that it was brilliant. However the subscription and mailing cost to New Zealand was prohibitive at something like $20+ per issue.

Were I able to justify that, I would subscribe in a flash.

quote:

Originally posted by allender:

As for pictures, it might wait until I abandon the day job. ..

Well when you come to your senses and do just that Jeff then make me your first port of call. Many years ago I started what I called my "Type Set Collection". This involves putting together 9 sample cards from each set and on the opposing side a sample of all know wrappers for that set. To date that collection from 1975 to 2000 runs to 861 sets and only slightly less wrappers.My target is (at the moment) 1127 sets so I am well on the way. The collection is spread across 22 Collectors Ultra-Pro ring binders. Just gimme the word Jeff......!!!

quote:

Originally posted by webjon:

quote:

Originally posted by allender:
The concept of Jon not being unique boggles the mind! They do it with IP addresses, so you wouldn't be a unique visitor unless you use a different internet connection.

Interesting. . . It has to reset at some point -- it won't keep an IP as a 'unique visitor' only once. I am pretty sure the tool I use to analyze my web traffic looks only at unique visitors on a calendar day. . . So if you visit my site at 11:59 PM and again at 12:00 AM -- that's 2 unique visitors according to the logs. . . despite not even being a unique web session. If it didn't reset regularly eventually the number of unique visitors would decrease drastically.

Well, I saw the data for an entire month. It resets after that, but in theory you can download a whole mess of historical data. Here's what it said for the checklist site in November:

Viewed traffic
... Unique visitors - 12,049
... Number of visits - 21,894 (1.81 visits/visitor)
... Pages - 73,269 (3.34 Pages/Visit)
... Hits - 140,091 (6.39 Hits/Visit)
... Bandwidth - 2.19 GB (104.8 KB/Visit)

Not viewed traffic (includes traffic generated by robots, worms, or replies with special HTTP status codes)
... Pages - 109,094
... Hits - 133,825
... Bandwidth - 432.45 MB

That's interesting information, because the other counters I've used just tracked the visits, pages, and hits, and you never knew whether a "visit" was a search engine doing its indexing.

Of course, some of the "unique visitors" may be the same person checking on two computers, a phone, and a tablet. And I don't know if mobile connections from the same phone can have different addresses depending on which cell picks them up, or if they're tied to the device.

Numbers gone down because its become too exclusive and there are some structural problems imo. Manufacturers are selling to dealers not retail which is why they have the case incentives [incentive for whom?]. So they are not looking at what works for the retail buyer. Given some of the new wholesaling ideas imo not sure they bothered about the dealers these days either.

i've been a dealer since darren used to take sales orders on the phone at cards inc. The biggest gripe why people don't even bother starting sets is the impossibility of completion. Retail customers tell me this all the time. Its the first thing they ask. Its the gatekeeper to what they decide to buy and not buy. The football collectors tell me won't even touch pannini because of their card model makes it impossible to collect [5 diff promos in every country etc]

Originally cards were freebies from cigarettes, bubble gum, cereals etc used to help promote a product. There would be 10 of this 20 of that to collect etc. They didn't cost much but there is satisfaction in completion. That's the key to getting new people in. But the trend seems to be mainly the reverse.

Even price is not the issue as seen with those licensed collect a chess set model magazines. Even tho people know its way too pricey they still have the possibility of completion over x amount of weeks.

Take the 'fun' out of collecting by making it impossible to collect [because the product is designed to sell to dealers so you shift all the cases] and people go find the fun elsewhere.

The biggest seller recently have been the dr who cards. You basically break the back of a base set in a box along with most of the 1st level chase and there are 7 costume cards and thats it. They had no 1 in 25 case 'incentive' to annoy people

Lots of people would have bought big bang but when they saw the price of the cards and the impossibility of completing it they didn't even start.

i could sell sets like a dr who set once a month whereas other sets impossible to complete for the ordinary person i don't even stock unless its a special order.

i know people who bought chocolate frogs by the boxful [ahem] just to collect the 20 cards.

However the unimaginative 3 or 4 trek or wars sets per year has even diehards reaching for the russian roulette revolver.

So the people are out there ready to buy but there is little product they want to even start collecting. Design the sets with the retail collector in mind and you are on a winner. If i had the capital i would do it but uk seems short of helpful trading card printers. But i'm still an optimist because i know it can be done

quote:

Originally posted by richnet:

Originally cards were freebies from cigarettes, bubble gum, cereals etc used to help promote a product. There would be 10 of this 20 of that to collect etc. They didn't cost much but there is satisfaction in completion. That's the key to getting new people in. But the trend seems to be mainly the reverse.
Take the 'fun' out of collecting by making it impossible to collect [because the product is designed to sell to dealers so you shift all the cases] and people go find the fun elsewhere.

The biggest seller recently have been the dr who cards. You basically break the back of a base set in a box along with most of the 1st level chase and there are 7 costume cards and thats it. They had no 1 in 25 case 'incentive' to annoy people

Can't argue with this.

I think the traditional trading card subjects are just a popular as they ever were, but there are a lot more people these days who just don't want to own things made of paper.

quote:

Originally posted by chesspieceface:
I think the traditional trading card subjects are just a popular as they ever were, but there are a lot more people these days who just don't want to own things made of paper.

In the UK kids still collect cards and stickers in massive amounts. The difference is that these cards are cheap to buy and you can complete your set.

quote:

Originally posted by wolfie:

quote:

Originally posted by chesspieceface:
I think the traditional trading card subjects are just a popular as they ever were, but there are a lot more people these days who just don't want to own things made of paper.

In the UK kids still collect cards and stickers in massive amounts. The difference is that these cards are cheap to buy and you can complete your set.

Paper has nothing to do it with, people collect anything that is fun for them. Pokemon and O-G-O are still popular as far as I can see and Magic is still putting out new decks.

Traditional card subjects have always been sport related. I don't think they are doing the business anymore. Alot of that has to do with the lousy state of sports heroes, but the games and TV are still raking it in.

Cards just cost too much. Premium cards cost way too much. They are being produced better than ever, but the rubber band is breaking. Adults with good jobs can't buy everything they want and you know it becomes a sore spot when it exists, you see it, and you know that it is foolish to buy. Not that you can't maybe afford it, but there really is no sensible reason you can think of to buy it.

That's how I feel about many of the new non-sport cards that came out this year and will continue to come out next year. I see terrific certified autograph cards, but the money is dumb. You can talk about supply and demand and how it is all worth it because its market value, but the money is still dumb.

I have taken a step back. I'm looking for value and I don't expect to buy as much anymore, but I think I will have more fun at it when I do. At least that's the plan, I'll see, I didn't keep to my plan this year.

quote:

Originally posted by Raven:

Cards just cost too much. Premium cards cost way too much. They are being produced better than ever, but the rubber band is breaking.

...........and there you have it.

quote:

Originally posted by wolfie:

quote:

Originally posted by Raven:

Cards just cost too much. Premium cards cost way too much. They are being produced better than ever, but the rubber band is breaking.

...........and there you have it.

I don't think it's anywhere near that simple...

-- Magic and Pokemon cost the same or more per pack as other non-sport releases.
-- All cards except high end hits are cheaper than ever.
-- Cheap retail only and food based promo cards still exist, but few people collect them.

If people really want cheap cards and no hits then just collect cheap cards and no hits. . . You'll be able to collect mini-masters for the price of a box. . . you'll be able to buy and open piles of wax packs for $.50 to $1 a pack.

It seems like a contradiction to me. . . People want cheap cards -- and they are out there in piles and piles. . . They say they don't want premium cards, yet they complain when premiums are made. It almost feels like people want the same product that is being produced today at prices from the 80s...

quote:

Originally posted by webjon:
[

quote:

Originally posted by Raven:

Cards just cost too much. Premium cards cost way too much. They are being produced better than ever, but the rubber band is breaking.

I don't think it's anywhere near that simple...

-- Magic and Pokemon cost the same or more per pack as other non-sport releases.
-- All cards except high end hits are cheaper than ever.
-- Cheap retail only and food based promo cards still exist, but few people collect them.

If people really want cheap cards and no hits then just collect cheap cards and no hits. . . You'll be able to collect mini-masters for the price of a box. . . you'll be able to buy and open piles of wax packs for $.50 to $1 a pack.

It seems like a contradiction to me. . . People want cheap cards -- and they are out there in piles and piles. . . They say they don't want premium cards, yet they complain when premiums are made. It almost feels like people want the same product that is being produced today at prices from the 80s...

Its never that simple, but its hard to get it all down in a readable post.

I use to buy packs, now I buy boxes because that is how you guarantee getting whatever hits are inside and also because it is darn hard to find open boxes and they are probably searched if you do.

Boxes use to cost $35 - $50. Now they cost $60 - $85 SRP. WD and BBT have hit $120 and better. I'm not discussing the really big premium boxes that are $190 and better.

The premium packs and boxes started at $35 - 40. Now they are more like $50 - $65. These are not casual purchases anymore and you must expense all at once, so that affects the budget.

Also, once you open the packs, because box prices are this high the value you get out of the cards have a greatly reduced ratio. The big hits are great when you get them, but the box is being priced like you will get a good hit out of it. When you get the average hits it feels like you lost too much money on the thing. You are right about cards being cheaper except for the high end, but that's after the box is broken, not before.

And people don't want cheap cards, no one says I want a cheap collection or a secondary collection. Collectors are willing to spend money on all sorts of things that may seem silly to other people. The problem comes in when you are spending money and you begin to feel like you have a secondary collection anyway.

Playable cards like Magic, Pokémon, Yu-Gi-Oh and the rest are collected more like marbles are, I think.
What percentage of people who buy those cards actually collect them in the way that non-sports collectors do?
We try to get one of each card basically, whereas CCG people are trying to make the best deck for use in their gameplay. That could mean they want 10 of one card and none of certain others from the same set, a none too common practice where traditional non-sports cards are concerned.
I know there are exceptions to this, but because those cards are meant to be played, and so many are, I consider them more like toys than trading cards, and think them to be in the family of collectibles that contains HeroClix and even video games rather than being squarely in the domain of "proper" trading cards.

I know I'm cutting back. And switching to mini-master sets.

It's fun to open a box, put a set together, and see what big hits (sketches and autographs, etc) you might find.

But I'm not going to buy 3 to 4 boxes to put a mini-master set together that I can buy for the price of one box.

My collecting is continually changing over the years.

I have 3 conventions planned for next year.

I don't foresee buying any cards or busts at them. And I'll be lucky to find any promo cards.

I don't plan on commissioning any sketch cards either. I might pick up a few cheap ones if I find something I like.

In the past 4 years, I spend one third on autographs and two thirds on sketches.

This year I think that will be reversed.

For me, going to conventions, getting the art I want and meeting actors is a lot more fun than pulling random sketches/autographs.

Sure, the resale value isn't there, but I'm not in this sort of hobby for flipping.

I have never sold a single sketch of any form, even if I don't like the work I pulled or commissioned.

I'm even considering not falling through with my order of the upcoming TWD boxes or selling them once I get them. I'd rather spend the money at a show, after the disappointment of allocation and not getting a sketch with season two.

And speaking of hits and spending money. I've noticed in the past month or so, nice sketch cards selling on ebay for far less than they were six months ago.

Probably due equally to holiday spending and the market being flooded.

There where 4 cards I wanted before Christmas, or I was out of the hobby if I didn't make a dent in that wish list. I got 2 of the 4. And the price on one keeps getting lower. So I'll hang in there a little longer.

quote:

Originally posted by Raven:

Its never that simple, but its hard to get it all down in a readable post.

I use to buy packs, now I buy boxes because that is how you guarantee getting whatever hits are inside and also because it is darn hard to find open boxes and they are probably searched if you do.

Boxes use to cost $35 - $50. Now they cost $60 - $85 SRP. WD and BBT have hit $120 and better. I'm not discussing the really big premium boxes that are $190 and better.

The premium packs and boxes started at $35 - 40. Now they are more like $50 - $65. These are not casual purchases anymore and you must expense all at once, so that affects the budget.

Also, once you open the packs, because box prices are this high the value you get out of the cards have a greatly reduced ratio. The big hits are great when you get them, but the box is being priced like you will get a good hit out of it. When you get the average hits it feels like you lost too much money on the thing. You are right about cards being cheaper except for the high end, but that's after the box is broken, not before.

And people don't want cheap cards, no one says I want a cheap collection or a secondary collection. Collectors are willing to spend money on all sorts of things that may seem silly to other people. The problem comes in when you are spending money and you begin to feel like you have a secondary collection anyway.

I can relate to a lot of what has been said here. . . I don't generally see people upset at the climb in box price (except for allocated cards), generally people are complaining about being completists and not wanting to pay for premium cards, but refusing to collect sets that have premium cards in them. . .

It would be interesting to know how much SRP has risen as compared to other items. . . I don't follow SRP at all and haven't ever, but I don't really recall packs and boxes being significantly cheaper anytime in the recent past. . . The easiest comparison for me is that it costs me $50 to fill my gas tank now, and 15 years ago it cost $18. . .

There are certainly products where it doesn't make sense to open sealed product if you are looking for specific cards. . .

As far as having a 'secondary collection,' that wasn't really what I was trying to imply at all. . . but I also think that sets today are filled with a-list celebrity autographs and material cards . . . to a much larger degree than sets from 15 years ago were. . . So. . . while I think the costs have gone up, I think the quality and content has increased a lot more than the cost of a box. . .

Out of curiosity I decided to look at some Inkworks press releases to figure out some SRPs. . .

Box MSRP:
2013 $84 All Cryptozoic Products I looked up.
2008 $83 The Spirit
2001 $72 Tomb Raider

I can't seem to get on RA's site right now, but I seem to recall their current MSRP is also about $84 a box.
Breygent doesn't seem to list MSRP that I can see.

The Inkworks MSRPs listed above are in line with other Inkworks products of similar configuration.

Based on a handful of data points it looks like MSRP hasn't really changed in 5 years. . . and has only increased about 16-17% overall in 14+ years.

Some other points based on information from the Bureau of Labor Statistics:

Milk: 2001: 2.85 2013 3.52 = 23% increase
Eggs: 2001: .975 2013 1.93 = 97% increase
Gas: 2001: 1.525 2013 3.40 = 122% increase
Coffee:2001: 3.224 2013 5.90 = 83% increase

That was the first data I found. . . I tried finding information on other goods briefly, but didn't find any. . .

So at about 16.6% price increase since 2001 we are actually beating all of those other items in our hobby.

Certainly there are outliers in the hobby. . . but pricing seems to be actually pretty stable -- at least at the MSRP level.

I think you will find most boxes are pitched around the $60 - 80 area.

The Dr Who cards in the UK are $40 for a 24 pack box. They also have a simple binder for less than $10.

Guess which ones are selling like crazy and attracting all the kids to the collecting hobby?

quote:

Originally posted by wolfie:
I think you will find most boxes are pitched around the $60 - 80 area.

The Dr Who cards in the UK are $40 for a 24 pack box. They also have a simple binder for less than $10.

Guess which ones are selling like crazy and attracting all the kids to the collecting hobby?

Right now, Dr. Who is one of the biggest properties in the world. Even in backwoods, Mississippi I can find Dr. Who Merchandise where ever I go. I hear kids talking about Dr. Who. The kids in my son's class all know and collect something from Dr. Who. I was given Dalek by my mother because she hear Dr. Who was popular again and I liked it as a kid. So, It does not surprise me that a Dr. Who product at whatever price point is outselling other cards.

The question of How many of us are there? How many of us are daily collectors? How many of us are just one product collectors? The story of Non Sports card has always been hit and miss. Star wars Hit! Cards fly off the shelves. Marvel cards Hit! Cards fly off the shelves. Buffy Hit! Cards fly off the shelf! Last Action Hero Miss! Cards can't be given away. The Spirit-Miss. However, there might be a Spirit fan that was loving this movie and bought a ton of cards from it and faded out of the hobby when they were done.

I am not going to lie. I was an Inkworks boy. I loved the company. I loved the people who worked there. I loved the products they produced. Oh, and one other thing, I only had one child when they were in business-so I could spend more on cards too. So, if you looked back on my involvement on cardtalk I was more active back during that time. Does that make me less one of us, now?

I remember when I was buying boxes of Star TrekS9 Memories of the Future for 36 bucks a box with 1 auto! I was thrilled. Now, a Star trek box has 4 autos and maybe a relic card for 65. A better deal, maybe, because the argument is going to come up well in that product no one was second helmsman to the left (True but you still have a chance at a major auto too). When we all start judging our collections by monetary value then we lose out on the fun.
If it is not fun then it is time to change hobbies. Why waste your time and money.

SO, what is one of us?

quote:

Originally posted by barobehere:

I am not going to lie. I was an Inkworks boy. I loved the company. I loved the people who worked there. I loved the products they produced. Oh, and one other thing, I only had one child when they were in business-so I could spend more on cards too. So, if you looked back on my involvement on cardtalk I was more active back during that time. Does that make me less one of us, now?

Look - Inkworks were formulaic - you either loved them or hated them. I have master sets of Serenity / Firefly and Animated Hellboy, and most of their promos. Their master sets were achievable, and I loved them. For sets to be a total success, they need to be achievable. Uncle Allen will always be in my best thoughts, because I believe he always had the true collector in mind.

Happy New Year everyone - hope all your trading card wishes come true.

Steve J

I will always have good feelings for Inkworks. The stuff they put into collectors hands makes me still consider them in the top 5 non sports companies of all time, and their people were always very friendly.
They did, however, towards the end of their existence, issue those extremely rare "Friends of Allen" promos, in quantities not unlike these modern limited exclusive promos that make master sets tougher to complete, and are now the source of some chagrin among completists. There were also some Christmas promo cards which were regular sized cards based on one of their licenses for the given year, autographed by the Inkworks staff on the reverse, and usually sent to only the larger retailers. Those can't be too common these days.