This is Jeff Allender's checklist site:

http://nslists.com/jachlist.htm

Of course the "fire sales" that followed cardmakers going out of business had a way of skewing the market. Cards that were held for a redemption all of a sudden were all "redeemed." But for redemption cards themselves ... some could show up (as noted in some of the posts above) that never had counterparts inserted in packs. And there's no reason why a manufacturer couldn't have had quite a few more copies of a redemption card than they ever intended to release. It was tougher 15-20 years ago, but today I could see more copies being printed just for the 'sale'. And sometimes the scarcer items found their way into the hands of friends of the cardmaker. There was Inkworks, but also there was a major campaign to sell off leftovers from Decipher's CCG rare cards and especially autos. If those autos were available for the fire sale, they must not have been inserted in packs.

I dislike card sets that trumpet that they are mostly leftovers from earlier series. It skews the whole idea of scarcities at the time the set was new. "From the archives" or "we've had these sitting on shelves" means they weren't in packs/boxes/cases. Even the best attempts at building price guides become chancy.

That said, chasing expired redemption cards is a great collecting focus. The appearance of items that weren't advertised to be in packs makes it tough to make a definitive checklist.

I'm one of those collectors that looks for oddball cards like that: undocumented promos, unreleased cards, and other things a few collectors still remember. It's like that guy on "Animal Planet" looking for animals thought to be extinct or the guy on "River Monsters" who looks for the beast behind the myth, both going to multiple continents and even more remote islands. Of course, mine is a less romantic and also less bug-bitten quest that sometimes has me going through airports but usually has me at home at midnight seeing what I can reel in from Ebay. It's fun finding that card at the edge of a checklist.

Jess

quote:

Originally posted by allender:
I dislike card sets that trumpet that they are mostly leftovers from earlier series. It skews the whole idea of scarcities at the time the set was new. "From the archives" or "we've had these sitting on shelves" means they weren't in packs/boxes/cases. Even the best attempts at building price guides become chancy.

That said, chasing expired redemption cards is a great collecting focus. The appearance of items that weren't advertised to be in packs makes it tough to make a definitive checklist.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by catskilleagle:
It's fun finding that card at the edge of a checklist.

Jess

Hey I like the turn of phrase, "at the edge of a checklist". Sounds like a good title for something.

I could never fully reconcile why some few collectors needed to go after the redemption card itself, sometimes even more than the actual redeemed card it was made to get. I understand the concept that an unredeemed expired redemption card might be rarer than the actual card, but still to me, its like holding on to a losing lottery ticket. Once the prize is gone, what good is it?

But there is a market for both expired redeemed, sometimes they were sent back with the card, and expired unredeemed redemption cards. I think you do have to look for those collectors that are really in the weeds though.

My reaction is mostly for those cards that were "supposed" to have been in packs, often with odds printed on the packaging. Before the days of let's-focus-on-big-Hits, folks would buy more and more product just to find the elusive missing insert, and some times the scarcity was more than what was advertised. Marketing ploy? Sometimes. The most notorious are cards that got left out of the original release but are found in packs of a later release; how does a collector know how to shop to find them? (And how can you configure a checklist? )

I'm more intrigued by the unadvertised extras, like prototypes, undistributed promos, or abandoned projects. If the cardmaker isn't going out of business, these sometimes show up only when a worker in the company or factory picks them up for family or friends. Almost every outfit has printing plates or uncut sheets, and these too are a nice addition to your favorite set even if they are "aftermarket" and aren't a mail-in or on the sell sheet. They are often 1/1 and not a requirement for a 'master set'.

A small note is deserved for cards that were in a 'fire sale', several years later when you can't verify how it came into the holder's hands. There have been forged copies for some of the most desired.

I used to be in the weeds, but I never smoked them. I did not consider a redemption card complete until I had the un-redeemed, redeemed and sent for cards all lined up in a row in my binder. Meaning I have a few blank spaces in my binders.

quote:

Originally posted by cardaddict:
I used to be in the weeds, but I never smoked them. I did not consider a redemption card complete until I had the un-redeemed, redeemed and sent for cards all lined up in a row in my binder. Meaning I have a few blank spaces in my binders.

And also why you have so many binders.

I have some "weed" promo cards.

regards

John

Hi Raven,

I was just thinking about where those oddball cards exist in our minds if not in space. For most sets the checklist in the packs reflected all there was, but even in the old days, there were variations like blank-backs and errors. Some people are going to be happy with the official set but others, who might have a particular fondness for a set, are going to like that there is one more card to chase. It's not just the rarity that drives them though that can be part of it. The unredeemed redemption card is that last unfilled pocket in a binder page.

Jess

quote:

Originally posted by Raven:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by catskilleagle:
It's fun finding that card at the edge of a checklist.

Jess

Hey I like the turn of phrase, "at the edge of a checklist". Sounds like a good title for something.

I could never fully reconcile why some few collectors needed to go after the redemption card itself, sometimes even more than the actual redeemed card it was made to get. I understand the concept that an unredeemed expired redemption card might be rarer than the actual card, but still to me, its like holding on to a losing lottery ticket. Once the prize is gone, what good is it?

But there is a market for both expired redeemed, sometimes they were sent back with the card, and expired unredeemed redemption cards. I think you do have to look for those collectors that are really in the weeds though.

Yeah, that would be frustrating to buy a box or two in hopes of pulling an advertised card that never ended up getting into the packs. For some reason it was too hard for the manufacturer to get the word out about that before the release.

Yeah, it's those other cards that are fun to hunt. After Skybox started and took over the American Vintage Cycles series with Series II, collectors found out about some unofficially released cards. They had chase card (foil) fronts but were blank on the backs except for a stamp that said "Unfinished Prototype." You list one of the singles but there were four (besides Frerotte, there was Kenny Lofton, Jerry Glanville, and "Mystery Celebrity Cycle Cards"). An ex-Skybox employee once told me the company gave those to some employees. I would assume some dealers and people who visited the offices got a few too.

Jess

quote:

Originally posted by allender:
My reaction is mostly for those cards that were "supposed" to have been in packs, often with odds printed on the packaging. Before the days of let's-focus-on-big-Hits, folks would buy more and more product just to find the elusive missing insert, and some times the scarcity was more than what was advertised. Marketing ploy? Sometimes. The most notorious are cards that got left out of the original release but are found in packs of a later release; how does a collector know how to shop to find them? (And how can you configure a checklist? )

I'm more intrigued by the unadvertised extras, like prototypes, undistributed promos, or abandoned projects. If the cardmaker isn't going out of business, these sometimes show up only when a worker in the company or factory picks them up for family or friends. Almost every outfit has printing plates or uncut sheets, and these too are a nice addition to your favorite set even if they are "aftermarket" and aren't a mail-in or on the sell sheet. They are often 1/1 and not a requirement for a 'master set'.

A small note is deserved for cards that were in a 'fire sale', several years later when you can't verify how it came into the holder's hands. There have been forged copies for some of the most desired.

Yeah, Inline printed two sets of prototype cards for their two mid-90's "Hemp" sets. There was a promo for an Australian hemp set and three, including an uncut sheet, for the Hemp Movement set in 1997. Maybe others?

Jess

quote:

Originally posted by JOHN LEVITT:
I have some "weed" promo cards.

regards

John

quote:

Originally posted by catskilleagle:

For most sets the checklist in the packs reflected all there was, but even in the old days, there were variations like blank-backs and errors.

I have a load of blank backs and partialy printed cards from The Avengers set that was done by Cornerstone, something diffrent to add to the collection.

I have a bunch of the first LOST IN SPACE set cards from Inkworks that were printed without the silver printing on the front of the cards.

quote:

Originally posted by Leejones77:
HI, ITS LEE JONES. THANKS FOR THE RESPONSE. I AM NEW TO THIS SO STILL FINDING MY FEET. I AM LOOKING FOR A COMPLETE LIST OF ALL THE INKWORKS UNRELEASED AUTOGRAPH AND PIECEWORK REDEMPTION CARDS FROM THE BUFFY, ANGEL, ROSWELL, SMALLVILLE, CHARMED CARD SETS. ALSO THE DARK ANGEL SET FROM THE COMPANY TOPPS. THANKS. LEE.

Hi Lee,

Is it just unreleased redemption cards that you are looking for, and NOT unreleased autographs or piecework cards?

If so, there is not a definitive list because there was no documented release of these kinds of obscure cards, sometimes things just 'turn up'. Even Jeff Allender's wonderful and comprehensive site will not contain everything because the cards you are looking for are not meant to be out there, and it can be hard to track when and where they turn up.

For example, Inkworks inserted a pieceworks redemption card for X-Files Seasons 6&7 (# xpr1), and is listed on Jeff Allender's House of checklists. Inkworks also manufactured an autograph redemption card (# xar1) for that product but it was not inserted into boxes/ no longer needed to be used because all of the autographs were returned from the actors in time to be included in the set. This item is not on Jeff Allender's list.

Is it part of the set? Well, people will give you differing views on that topic but the card does exist. The 2 or 3 I have seen were all several years before the Inkworks inventory dump, and none have popped up since (that I have noticed).

Certainly more of these types interesting cards appeared after the Inkworks liquidation, including more redemption cards never inserted into the product of the type I mention above. I'm sure I recall seeing an unreleased X-Files Season 8 autograph redemption card and some others. Unfortunately I did not track cards I did not collect so cannot advise further on the sets you are collecting.

One I got from the liquidation is a The World Is Not Enough autograph redemption card that does not have a 'tick' on the back designating which autograph you would receive. As such, it is an example of an unreleased 'version' of an autograph redemption card that was released into the product originally.

My best advice is to keep your eyes peeled. Have you reached out to the big UK seller on eBay UK who is often a source of these obscure items? With the thousands of items in their inventory they may have interesting things knocking about they have not listed.

quote:

Originally posted by Raven:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by catskilleagle:
It's fun finding that card at the edge of a checklist.

Jess

Hey I like the turn of phrase, "at the edge of a checklist". Sounds like a good title for something.

I could never fully reconcile why some few collectors needed to go after the redemption card itself, sometimes even more than the actual redeemed card it was made to get. I understand the concept that an unredeemed expired redemption card might be rarer than the actual card, but still to me, its like holding on to a losing lottery ticket. Once the prize is gone, what good is it?

But there is a market for both expired redeemed, sometimes they were sent back with the card, and expired unredeemed redemption cards. I think you do have to look for those collectors that are really in the weeds though.

"What good" are any cards?

As someone who also likes obscure "edge of the checklist" unreleased/prototype items, as Jess put it, I would have to make the distinction that if a manufacturer actually inserts a redemption card into a product then it is part of the checklist/part of the set.

The value people assign them can vary greatly, and collectors will differ in what they accept in terms of condition (punched holes, handwriting on the card back etc.) but their presence in a set can't be denied. It is another card to be collected, no different to another chase card in a set.

quote:

Originally posted by X:

quote:

Originally posted by Raven:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by catskilleagle:
It's fun finding that card at the edge of a checklist.

Jess

Hey I like the turn of phrase, "at the edge of a checklist". Sounds like a good title for something.

I could never fully reconcile why some few collectors needed to go after the redemption card itself, sometimes even more than the actual redeemed card it was made to get. I understand the concept that an unredeemed expired redemption card might be rarer than the actual card, but still to me, its like holding on to a losing lottery ticket. Once the prize is gone, what good is it?

But there is a market for both expired redeemed, sometimes they were sent back with the card, and expired unredeemed redemption cards. I think you do have to look for those collectors that are really in the weeds though.

"What good" are any cards?

As someone who also likes obscure "edge of the checklist" unreleased/prototype items, as Jess put it, I would have to make the distinction that if a manufacturer actually inserts a redemption card into a product then it is part of the checklist/part of the set.

The value people assign them can vary greatly, and collectors will differ in what they accept in terms of condition (punched holes, handwriting on the card back etc.) but their presence in a set can't be denied. It is another card to be collected, no different to another chase card in a set.

"What good" are any cards? Now that could be a whole other thread.

As usual, you and I do agree on the issue completely, but our own personal collecting preferences are on opposite ends of the stick. Nothing wrong with that, it actually paints both sides of the picture for anyone less familiar with some of these more nuanced issues.

As I said there is a market for both redeemed and unredeemed redemption cards. I don't see their value and I never consider them part of any set. I'm pretty sure that the average card collector doesn't give a fig about them, but would perhaps be interested in the card that was supposed to have been redeemed. Once the offer expires, who cares? Not me.

That doesn't mean you shouldn't. It just means you are a more discerning collector, or as I like to say, "in the weeds".

quote:

Originally posted by Raven:

quote:

Originally posted by X:

quote:

Originally posted by Raven:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by catskilleagle:
It's fun finding that card at the edge of a checklist.

Jess

Hey I like the turn of phrase, "at the edge of a checklist". Sounds like a good title for something.

I could never fully reconcile why some few collectors needed to go after the redemption card itself, sometimes even more than the actual redeemed card it was made to get. I understand the concept that an unredeemed expired redemption card might be rarer than the actual card, but still to me, its like holding on to a losing lottery ticket. Once the prize is gone, what good is it?

But there is a market for both expired redeemed, sometimes they were sent back with the card, and expired unredeemed redemption cards. I think you do have to look for those collectors that are really in the weeds though.

"What good" are any cards?

As someone who also likes obscure "edge of the checklist" unreleased/prototype items, as Jess put it, I would have to make the distinction that if a manufacturer actually inserts a redemption card into a product then it is part of the checklist/part of the set.

The value people assign them can vary greatly, and collectors will differ in what they accept in terms of condition (punched holes, handwriting on the card back etc.) but their presence in a set can't be denied. It is another card to be collected, no different to another chase card in a set.

"What good" are any cards? Now that could be a whole other thread.

As usual, you and I do agree on the issue completely, but our own personal collecting preferences are on opposite ends of the stick. Nothing wrong with that, it actually paints both sides of the picture for anyone less familiar with some of these more nuanced issues.

As I said there is a market for both redeemed and unredeemed redemption cards. I don't see their value and I never consider them part of any set. I'm pretty sure that the average card collector doesn't give a fig about them, but would perhaps be interested in the card that was supposed to have been redeemed. Once the offer expires, who cares? Not me.

That doesn't mean you shouldn't. It just means you are a more discerning collector, or as I like to say, "in the weeds".

Seeing as I think a redemption card is part of the set, and you do not, I'm not sure we do agree!

You have said an expired redemption card is like a "losing lottery ticket". The more recent Star Wars redemption cards from Topps fall perfectly into that category: literally worthless in every respect once expired. No number, no design, a text sticker on a white card. It's worth is purely in what it can be exchanged for.



But how can that logic be applied to things like these...


Take the Bond 40th Anniversary 'D' contest card, quite literally a part of that particular chase set, because who ever heard of "JAMES BON"?

I'm sure many preferred to get the master set that the complete contest set could be redeemed for, but there were only 40 of the D card, and fewer still that were not voided/had their top left corner clipped. The D card is rare, valuable, has a nice design and is appealing in a different way compared to lots of common autographs and easy to get chase cards. Sadly I do not have one.


The World Is Not Enough #R1 auto redemption card is a sharp looking card IMO and has no less eye appeal than other typical Inkworks chase cards of the time.

I have 7 of these: one for each of the 6 signers (each with a different gold tick on the reverse for the specific actor) + 1 blank unreleased version, all 'un-punched'.
If other collectors hold them as being of little value, does the argument not to collect them really hold water when they can often be picked up for $10 or under? And I'm sure most collectors would be happy with just one.


Below are some X-Files auto redemption cards:
- Connections #AR-1 (released & redeemed)
- Seasons 4&5 (released & redeemed)
- Seasons 6&7 #xar1 that I mentioned earlier, front and reverse (unreleased)

These look no different to other promos and box/case toppers from their respective sets and are equally as visually appealing/collectable.

And on that note, why are some happy to collect otherwise identical looking promos/case cards that are not inserted in packs, but a redemption card, actually seeded in sealed product, doesn't really count as part of the set?

X, besides saying that you are a very discerning and expert card collector, you also seem to think that I must say you are right on the subject of redemption cards. Alas I can't do that.

As I am sure you know, there is no universal agreement as to what constitutes a master set in this card collecting hobby. If someone advertises a master set for sale, you must ask them specifically what cards it contains because frequently cards are left out that you might think belong in. Promos, insert cards, chase cards, parallel cards, redeemed cards, their redemption cards, archive cards, exclusive cards, errors or variants, reward cards and all manner of short printed cards or those ones that didn't quite make the checklist might be missing. There are many cards that different people decide are optional to the product, the set and even the master set. Expired redemption cards, both redeemed or unredeemed, are optional in my opinion. I am not telling you that you don't need them. I'm saying I don't need them.

You seem to be making two points.

First some redemption cards look really nice, just as nice as chase sets. So it doesn't matter that when they are expired they can't be used for whatever purpose they had. I have no issue with anyone who wants to collect anything because it looks nice, but they are still optional to the set in the way I define a set.

You're second point is that any card seeded in the packs is by definition part of the set. Redemption cards are certainly seeded in packs, but here is the huge hole in that logic. If you consider the redemption card as part of the set because its in the pack, then conversely the redeemed card, which missed out from actually being put in the pack, wouldn't be part of the set or checklist. If you apply your logic only one of them can count and it wouldn't be the real card, it would be it's place holder. Plus it would leave out things like promos and rewards and exclusives that also never make it into the packs, but some other discerning collectors also think should be included in master sets.

So on that note, and knowing that very few card collectors really pursue complete sets anymore, I will leave it up to them to decide when they think they have all they need and when they think they need more.

I'm not saying you have to agree with me, I was saying that I disagree they are not part of the set, with some examples.

On the "two points" you say I am making...

1. You said a redemption card has no value to some collectors beyond what it can be exchanged for. This ignores all other qualities it has as a trading card (unless it really is as crappy as a white slip of paper Topps call a redemption card these days). Of course eye-appeal comes into play. Cards are for collecting, and looking at.
I'd ask people to think about why some manufacturers return voided redemption cards to the collector rather than just destroy them?

2. A card being seeded in packs is not my baseline criteria for a card being part of a set - that has been an often stated opinion on these boards in the past, particularly when people got irate over difficulties encountered in trying to collect certain cards. I was making the point that, ironically, some find it easier to include a promos or case cards as part of their definition of a master set but will happily exclude sometimes easier to obtain redemption cards, that can actually be found in the product!


What constitutes a 'master set' was, for the longest time, every card made and officially released by the manufacturer for that set. I still hold by this standard.

It then got a little less simple when sketch cards and 1/1 cards became more commonplace in recent years and divergence from the old standard moved towards individual interpretation, and the whole hobby has become more muddy as a consequence.

The harder sets were to complete, and the more frustrated collectors got, the more willing they seem to bend previously (generally) agreed upon definitions of what a master set is. I think the disillusion and disappearance of collectors is some proof in itself that certain rare cards ARE part of a master set: many could not accept no longer being able to complete sets so threw in the towel completely.
For those who do remain in the hobby, it is easier to deny something is not part of a set when it becomes more difficult to find or afford (as seems to be the main complaints in defining a 'master set'), but incomplete is the new normal for nearly all collectors now.

I think it is fair to say most collectors would not include unreleased cards as part of a master set, even if people like me collect them, because they are production oddities: items never meant to be out there.

It makes no difference to me whether anyone else deems a redemption card part of their set, particularly as I am a big advocate of collecting ONLY what you value and I do not consider myself a completest anymore.
I still think it is faulty logic though when people say something, like a redemption card, is not part of the set because they personally see no value in it, especially when that opinion seems to ignore how it was distributed in the first place, and its intrinsic qualities as a collectible item itself.

As a Trek collector, I wouldn't have a Stephen Collins Star Trek auto in my collection at any price, but if I wanted to collect a master set of Complete Star Trek Movies I would have to recognise that his auto is still an officially produced and inserted trading card, just like pack-inserted redemption cards. My self imposed criteria to ignore that card is an entirely separate thing.

Complete is complete. Everything else is preference or delusion.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: X,

I was under the impression that the Redemption card verified the authenticity of the signature card
even though they had the company guarantee on the card
When I started to collect Trading Cards there was only a couple of Australian companies doing Sports cards sets as Signature cards were only available by redemption if you pulled a redemption card
1 you filled it in , sent it into the company and after the mandatory wait you received back .
1 Your hole punched redemption card
2 A signed certificate of authenticity card
3 The signature card.
All with the same #
most cards or all cards were advertised for sale as a set of the three cards
This also went with Bonus or special offer special cards that were also issued as extras or incentives
So to me a redemption card is as important to have with the card it is assigned too
No redemption no authencity..
If a card that is listed as having a redemption card is sold without it there should be at least a %40 less asking price that is why I dont go for Signature cards without redemption cards if they have to be redeemed. I dont think that there should be any difference wether wich one is inserted both are part of and should be included in the set.
I have a number of various Inkworks redemption cards and I think that the pictures or scenes on them are actually quiet a standout in the set.