There seems to be a new idea eminating from Rittenhouse and that's the idea of a high level signature card found only in archive boxes. I have a number of Rittenhouse master sets and I am very happy with them, they are well done and I continue to enjoy them enormously; but this new idea has done my swede in.

The idea of trading cards is to collect them ALL. Modern manufacturers seem to think that they can stretch this ideology as far as they want, and that it will have no negative impact on collectors.

Well it has a massive impact on me. I don't mind a collecting challenge, some parallel sets can be fun but this new pay $2000 for an archive box, or you cannot get a master set has really upset me, especially on the upcoming Continuum Series 3 set.

So I may have enough to buy a Continuum archive box, but that's not collecting; it's not trading, so what the hell is it? Is Archive box collecting for those who live in a vacuum and don't need to communicate?

Anyway thats my rant over.. I just wanted to share my frustration...

it hasn't been collecting for a long time, it is merely paying out loads of money and amassing stuff.

quote:

Originally posted by steve j:
...Well it has a massive impact on me. I don't mind a collecting challenge, some parallel sets can be fun but this new pay $2000 for an archive box, or you cannot get a master set has really upset me, especially on the upcoming Continuum Series 3 set......

Don't get upset, they are only cards after all. Collecting should be a fun pastime not a frustrating headache.

Steve - I've always had this thought ever since the advent of dealer incentives, which the Archive boxes have now exclusively become. I am of an old school that thinks that if a product is good enough, it doesn't need incentives.

My days of Master sets really did end with Inkworks (2008). So, 7 years now. I have come close on one Rittenhouse Master set (Think I am only missing four or five autos and 1 sketch artist on X3: The Last Stand-(please don't laugh). It is usually just too costly for me to chase everything down for a Rittenhouse master. So, if you have been making master sets I can see why you are miffed.

Non-sport cards are no longer buffered from the excesses of the sport card world. If you cater to the so-called elite collector at the risk of disenfranchising the base, the whole structure can come down. Pyramid 101.

I don't like the idea either.

I never stood a chance of a Harry Potter master set, far too many levels of autos and props etc, although the quality was excellent.
Ciaran Hinds(Aberforth) was an incentive card and if found is around the £130-£175 mark, but you can get his autograph card from Tomb Raider for around £15! There is no way I can justify the price of the incentive in instances like that.

I did manage masters of S1 and S2 of Game of Thrones. I really enjoyed chasing those down and saving for the cards I needed. But after those series, with sketches introduced(which I've always hated) and these daft and lazy gold parallel sets, I've put the brake on it and pick and choose which parts to collect and which to not bother with.
I usually have one or two gold cards of my favourite character or scene and that's all the chasing around I'll do now.

To be a master collector always required deep pockets, but to make it nearly unattainable to most people is a bit disappointing. Maybe the missing autos should be bought from other cheaper sets the actors were involved with to represent them in a certain set. It wouldn't be a 'true' master but would be nice on a personal level. Which is something I'm thinking of doing with some sets.

Unfortunately a lot of cards are just unattainable to me and my teeny weeny wallet. But that's life in a lot of ways, always things that some people can have and not others.

It's usually not necessary for a collector to acquire a full archive box to get the exclusives. I, for example, break down the archive boxes I get as part of my order (yes I order that much!) for myself and 1 or two of my master set clients. This last product only added around $400 cost to the master set cost for the addition of the cards.
Granted, I have way more master set clients then I have archive boxes for but, it's a start.

Here's a question I have . . .

and perhaps Lynne might have some idea about it because she has customers that go for master sets and maybe a whole archive box.

Do they unseal the archive boxes to be displayed as a master set, including any additional cards? Or do they just hold on to the sealed archive box?

Conventional wisdom would say that you should leave an archive box sealed so that all cards would be regarded as pristine and uncirculated and it can be resold as such. That being the case, any archive box only cards should have a hard time seeing the light of the day, let alone being sold on the secondary market.

Isn't that right, these archive box only cards will hardly ever change hands as an individual card exchange? I mean, either they will stay sealed up or they will be sold by a dealer to a master set collector who will not be letting it out of his collection. Either way they will not be trading, or am I missing something here?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Raven,

Here's my take on Archive Boxes & Incentives.....

with the average Topps Case running around $700-$1000, Crappyzoic running in the $1000 range & UpperDeck easily beating those prices....

It's nice to be getting something out of this on the Dealer Level.

The Incentives Help keep case Prices Down , Almost any Rittenhouse Product can be had under $700 a case..... I know a lot of dealers who sell cases at Cost to get these incentives....

The Incentives ARE the Profit on these cases 9 out of 10 times.............

I rarely go after Master Sets..... The Gold Sets are slightly Insane.

I am the Biggest Fan Of Continuum out there..... I am getting a ton of these.....

The Incentives help keep the Case Prices Down..................

quote:

Originally posted by Raven:
Here's a question I have . . .

and perhaps Lynne might have some idea about it because she has customers that go for master sets and maybe a whole archive box.

Do they unseal the archive boxes to be displayed as a master set, including any additional cards? Or do they just hold on to the sealed archive box?

Conventional wisdom would say that you should leave an archive box sealed so that all cards would be regarded as pristine and uncirculated and it can be resold as such. That being the case, any archive box only cards should have a hard time seeing the light of the day, let alone being sold on the secondary market.

Isn't that right, these archive box only cards will hardly ever change hands as an individual card exchange? I mean, either they will stay sealed up or they will be sold by a dealer to a master set collector who will not be letting it out of his collection. Either way they will not be trading, or am I missing something here?

I agree, I don't see many exchanges going on. The supply of these would come mostly from dealers. Getting connected with a big dealer and gaining a relationship. I can only work with 2 or 3 at that level but at least those people don't have to get their own archive box on top of a master set. Better then nuttin
As to keeping them sealed, I don't know of anyone who keeps them sealed. I'd argue a counter that you need to open them in case something is forgotten. or damaged in packing.

quote:

Originally posted by STCardGeek:

quote:

Originally posted by Raven:
Here's a question I have . . .

and perhaps Lynne might have some idea about it because she has customers that go for master sets and maybe a whole archive box.

Do they unseal the archive boxes to be displayed as a master set, including any additional cards? Or do they just hold on to the sealed archive box?

Conventional wisdom would say that you should leave an archive box sealed so that all cards would be regarded as pristine and uncirculated and it can be resold as such. That being the case, any archive box only cards should have a hard time seeing the light of the day, let alone being sold on the secondary market.

Isn't that right, these archive box only cards will hardly ever change hands as an individual card exchange? I mean, either they will stay sealed up or they will be sold by a dealer to a master set collector who will not be letting it out of his collection. Either way they will not be trading, or am I missing something here?

I agree, I don't see many exchanges going on. The supply of these would come mostly from dealers. Getting connected with a big dealer and gaining a relationship. I can only work with 2 or 3 at that level but at least those people don't have to get their own archive box on top of a master set. Better then nuttin
As to keeping them sealed, I don't know of anyone who keeps them sealed. I'd argue a counter that you need to open them in case something is forgotten. or damaged in packing.

Thanks Lynne, I'm kind of surprised, but I can sort of understand why a dealer would bust an archive box. Maybe they don't have a single customer that will pay for the whole thing, but they can sell the parts.

As a collector, I would not unseal an archive box. Not that I will EVER have one, just saying.

My thinking is that it will always have the value of the box itself, including any extras, and I really don't have to worry about missing cards or damaged cards because as long as it is factory sealed it can be sold as uncirculated. I can't see busting it for display purposes either, the value of an archive box at any given time should be higher than the same open master set in the same timeframe. For one thing, an open master is subject to condition grading. For another, the sum is always greater than it's parts. Just look at regular box prices to prove that theory.

Anyway, an interesting discussion about a subject very few will be faced with.

quote:

Originally posted by Kryten67:
Here's my take on Archive Boxes & Incentives.....

with the average Topps Case running around $700-$1000, Crappyzoic running in the $1000 range & UpperDeck easily beating those prices....

It's nice to be getting something out of this on the Dealer Level.

The Incentives Help keep case Prices Down , Almost any Rittenhouse Product can be had under $700 a case..... I know a lot of dealers who sell cases at Cost to get these incentives....

The Incentives ARE the Profit on these cases 9 out of 10 times.............

I rarely go after Master Sets..... The Gold Sets are slightly Insane.

I am the Biggest Fan Of Continuum out there..... I am getting a ton of these.....

The Incentives help keep the Case Prices Down..................

I think the points you touch on are probably best discussed in a separate thread that talks about incentive cards only. This thread does it only to the extent that archive box only cards have been turned into a form of dealer incentive.

Briefly, from a dealer standpoint, I certainly understand where they are needed to give dealers some expectation of making a profit on large orders.

From a collectors standpoint, I think it is starting to be over done, thus creating a backlash is some circles, and also some recent incentives for multi-case purchases have been ill chosen and are not doing dealers or collectors any good. Without going into specifics in a wrong thread, is a gold signature autograph in GoT worth buying when that same signer has a cheaper autograph in every season's product? I think not.

But that's another discussion about all incentives not being created equal and how overdoing a good thing will always turn bad sooner or later.

quote:

Originally posted by Raven:

quote:

Originally posted by STCardGeek:

quote:

Originally posted by Raven:
Here's a question I have . . .

and perhaps Lynne might have some idea about it because she has customers that go for master sets and maybe a whole archive box.

Do they unseal the archive boxes to be displayed as a master set, including any additional cards? Or do they just hold on to the sealed archive box?

Conventional wisdom would say that you should leave an archive box sealed so that all cards would be regarded as pristine and uncirculated and it can be resold as such. That being the case, any archive box only cards should have a hard time seeing the light of the day, let alone being sold on the secondary market.

Isn't that right, these archive box only cards will hardly ever change hands as an individual card exchange? I mean, either they will stay sealed up or they will be sold by a dealer to a master set collector who will not be letting it out of his collection. Either way they will not be trading, or am I missing something here?

I agree, I don't see many exchanges going on. The supply of these would come mostly from dealers. Getting connected with a big dealer and gaining a relationship. I can only work with 2 or 3 at that level but at least those people don't have to get their own archive box on top of a master set. Better then nuttin
As to keeping them sealed, I don't know of anyone who keeps them sealed. I'd argue a counter that you need to open them in case something is forgotten. or damaged in packing.

Thanks Lynne, I'm kind of surprised, but I can sort of understand why a dealer would bust an archive box. Maybe they don't have a single customer that will pay for the whole thing, but they can sell the parts.

As a collector, I would not unseal an archive box. Not that I will EVER have one, just saying.

My thinking is that it will always have the value of the box itself, including any extras, and I really don't have to worry about missing cards or damaged cards because as long as it is factory sealed it can be sold as uncirculated. I can't see busting it for display purposes either, the value of an archive box at any given time should be higher than the same open master set in the same timeframe. For one thing, an open master is subject to condition grading. For another, the sum is always greater than it's parts. Just look at regular box prices to prove that theory.

Anyway, an interesting discussion about a subject very few will be faced with.

The thing is.....and this is the collector in me No card deserves to be suffocated in a box! Opppeeeennnn itttttt!!

quote:

Originally posted by Raven:
Without going into specifics in a wrong thread, is a gold signature autograph in GoT worth buying when that same signer has a cheaper autograph in every season's product? I think not.

But that's another discussion about all incentives not being created equal and how overdoing a good thing will always turn bad sooner or later.

I would say yes Just because ( and I know I may be weird in this. A card matters to me, not the signature. Having a signature of a guy doesn't make me not want the guy on a new, previously not-had card So, I'd have to have it. And that's why RA owns me.....cause I'm weak.

quote:

Originally posted by STCardGeek:

quote:

Originally posted by Raven:

quote:

Originally posted by STCardGeek:

quote:

Originally posted by Raven:
Here's a question I have . . .

and perhaps Lynne might have some idea about it because she has customers that go for master sets and maybe a whole archive box.

Do they unseal the archive boxes to be displayed as a master set, including any additional cards? Or do they just hold on to the sealed archive box?

Conventional wisdom would say that you should leave an archive box sealed so that all cards would be regarded as pristine and uncirculated and it can be resold as such. That being the case, any archive box only cards should have a hard time seeing the light of the day, let alone being sold on the secondary market.

Isn't that right, these archive box only cards will hardly ever change hands as an individual card exchange? I mean, either they will stay sealed up or they will be sold by a dealer to a master set collector who will not be letting it out of his collection. Either way they will not be trading, or am I missing something here?

I agree, I don't see many exchanges going on. The supply of these would come mostly from dealers. Getting connected with a big dealer and gaining a relationship. I can only work with 2 or 3 at that level but at least those people don't have to get their own archive box on top of a master set. Better then nuttin
As to keeping them sealed, I don't know of anyone who keeps them sealed. I'd argue a counter that you need to open them in case something is forgotten. or damaged in packing.

Thanks Lynne, I'm kind of surprised, but I can sort of understand why a dealer would bust an archive box. Maybe they don't have a single customer that will pay for the whole thing, but they can sell the parts.

As a collector, I would not unseal an archive box. Not that I will EVER have one, just saying.

My thinking is that it will always have the value of the box itself, including any extras, and I really don't have to worry about missing cards or damaged cards because as long as it is factory sealed it can be sold as uncirculated. I can't see busting it for display purposes either, the value of an archive box at any given time should be higher than the same open master set in the same timeframe. For one thing, an open master is subject to condition grading. For another, the sum is always greater than it's parts. Just look at regular box prices to prove that theory.

Anyway, an interesting discussion about a subject very few will be faced with.

The thing is.....and this is the collector in me No card deserves to be suffocated in a box! Opppeeeennnn itttttt!!

Lynne, I have 21 Star Trek 1701 Boxes Suffocating.............

Never Ever Gonna Open 'Em..........

I do not support letting cards suffocate in boxes Though I agree, those boxes are worthy of not opening.

Continuum Archive Exclusive Auto



Continuum Archive Exclusive Auto

Mr Kryten, Are you trying to make me feel better?