I think it just speaks to what a niche hobby we have the Wikipedia Non-Sports page was so laughably inept this far along in the game. Wikipedia has been around for a long time, and while its accessibility to everyone is admirable, one look at the definition of "non sports cards" as it had been until very recently let's you know why the makers of the now defunct Encyclopaedia Britannica didn't hand out to flyers to just anyone passing by to step into the office and write their subject entries.

Even so, hubris, according to Wikipedia (as opposed to huberous, by which Lisalisa might have meant something else), "often indicates a loss of contact with reality and an overestimation of one's own competence or capabilities, especially when the person exhibiting it is in a position of power."

I'm not sure who on this board feels they are in some position of power, besides, of course the Tosers and the board moderators, who necessarily should. However if these good people, most of whom have served the hobby for decades, are dictators of any sort, I find them to be extremely benevolent ones at that, and very unusual for dictators in that all of their "subjects" are free to do as they please, which includes starting their own free discussion board for hobbyists to frequent where those involved can define things in any way they see fit, away from the hubristic lot at the NSU card talk board.

Power mad? Out of touch? I take great exception to such accusations of our members. Most of our "rank and file" board members seem to be quite in touch with reality for the most part, so the use of the term hubris to describe our members is unfair, a broad brush stroke that needn't have been employed, more than a little hyperbolic at a minimum, and in my opinion, quite off base.

I have read posts from time to time which seemed needlessly pointed (perhaps this very one, for instance), unnecessarily aloof, outright mistaken, or clearly written with a not so-well-hidden covert agenda on this board over the years, but they are a clearly the exception as opposed to the rule. I don't think many people would post here at all were that not the case.

Still, it does happen from time to time that people are unnecessarily rude for reasons only they can know, and out of the blue, when everyone else was merely having a pleasant and productive conversation. To address your point directly, Lisalisa, if you what has upset you springs from having felt your work on the previous Wikipedia Non Sports definition was being denigrated, well, you should've done a better job, or not chimed in at all, if that was the best you could do. No offense.

I read the page as it was, and it was simply dreadful. It is much better now as a direct result of the effort of Card Talk members.

The first paragraph of the current Wikipedia Non Sports entry is in quotes below, and while it contains some good information, it is still not well written. It is not the cohesive overview paragraph that all encyclopedia entries should begin with. It contains poor grammar and punctuation errors, none of which should appear in any document of record. It's a spell check world, you almost have to go out of your way not to use it, so how does this happen?

The capital letters in parentheses are my own thoughts regarding particularly poorly handled sections of the paragraph.

The listing as it is currently:

"Non-sport trading cards are trading cards (REDUNDANT), often thought of an off shot of cigarette cards (THIS SENTENCE HURTS MY HEAD), featuring entertainment content on some subject of popular interest other than sports, designed for collecting. (HEAD HURTS WORSE NOW). Early sets included a piece of gum inside the package giving them the name 'Bubblegum Cards" (MISSING SIMPLE PUNCTUATION) Produced in series, such cards could involve licensed properties from films or television. (TELEVISION HAD NOT BEEN INVENTED WHEN NON-SPORTS CARDS WERE ORIGINALLY INTRODUCED) Other cards could be original creations, such as Topps Wacky Packages humor cards or scenes from history. ("SCENES FROM HISTORY" CARDS ARE NOT ORIGINAL CREATIONS)

Even accepting all of this information, it should at a minimum, for scholarly purposes (while remaining accessible to the layman, of course), be re-written almost completely. Here is one example of how that could be done:

START
Non-sport trading cards are a particular kind of collectible card designated as such because trading cards have historically prominently featured athletes from the world of sports as subjects. Non-sports cards are trading cards whose subjects can be virtually anything other than sports-themed.

The earliest popularly collected versions of most trading cards are were issued as premiums in packages of cigarettes well over 100 years ago. While sport figures were most often the subject depicted on the card (usually issued one per pack), a wealth of various subjects from outside the world of sports were additionally featured on cigarette cards. These include people from the world of entertainment, exotic animals, and famous places, among various other non-sport subjects.

Eventually, as the cigarette makers ceased issuing cards in their products, both non-sports and sports cards were still sometimes given as a bonus with a stick of bubblegum or along with other food products including candy and cereal. By the 1950's both sports and non-sports cards had achieved a popularity that allowed them to become the selling point. A piece of gum was still included in most packs of non-sport cards up until approximately 1990, at which time gum stopped being included in the packs along with the cards. Very few card issues from the past 20 years have included bubble gum in the packs, making the once common term "bubble gum cards" a misnomer in the modern day. While non-sports cards initially showcased such real world subjects as entertainers, animals, and famous places, their success expanded with the introduction of new concepts created specifically for the cards including the popular Wacky Packages product label parody sticker cards from the Topps Company, issued in their original run in the late 1960's through the mid 1970's. Cards depicting historical events have also proven popular over the years.
END

I'm not registered on Wikipedia, but if I were, I'd try and shoehorn something like that in there, and even here, I humbly request additions/corrections from those willing to take the time.
The last bit, my own version included, is terribly lacking. Horrors of Wars, Mars Attacks, GPK, Star Wars 77, Batman Topps, along with other sets should be mentioned along with Wackys, if we're talking influence here. And any of those sets not already expanded on in their own entries should also be given their proper due.

NON SPORT UPDATE, a magazine that has published continually for over 20 years, constantly advancing the efforts of hobbyists, dealers, and manufacturers alike, should also be given its proper appreciation somewhere in the entry, if only for its persistence in reminding collectors that, after all this time, we still love cards as much as we did when we were kids. I've got to do a lot of fun stuff, but there's still nothing quite like opening up a big stack of packs and sorting those cards out.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: chesspieceface,

quote:

Originally posted by lisalisa:
I am sorry if I came off as angry rude or harsh.

Ok i forgive you.

quote:

chesspieceface

I vote you for the official punctuation and spelling advisor for wikipedia and my NSU posts. Now all you need is a pipe youll be more awesome than Sherlock Holmes or John Travolta in The Punisher.

Updated...

Great job chesspieceface and Chris. Glad you were able to update it with chesspieceface's suggestions.

Lisalisa~ I am sorry if you feel anyone here has trampled on your work. We are only trying to improve the page.

Chesspieceface~ I see what you mean about the end of the current third paragraph. I would propose adding something on to the end saying something like 'Over the past 50 years, cards based on television series and movies have gained much traction in the hobby and today, media-based cards account for a significant portion of the cards produced. Some of the most popular media-based non-sport cards have been based on Star Wars, Star Trek, Batman (television and movies), Planet of the Apes, Lord of the Rings, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, and many others. Other popular modern day non-sport cards are based on comic books including Marvel Comics, DC Comics and independent comic book publishers."

What does everyone think?

Hey look who figured out how to add pictures!!!!

Much better. However, this new version will fail wikipedia standards because it is not referenced (that is, it would be considered original research). Not only does it need references at the end, those references must be used within the article (for example - needs to reference in order to assert they started over 100 years ago as a cigarette collectible). I am sure some NSU members can provide such references.

Also, can I suggest that the list of series by either:
- moved to the end
- shortened to only have 2-3 series of each 'type'
- shortened to have only 2-3 from each company that are sort of their main business (eg Topps Wacky Packs, Star Wars; Rittenhouse something scifi, Cryptozoic BBT; Inkworks Buffy; Breygent movie posters?)
- dumped entirely and reframed as a section about the manufacturers.

At the moment, a reader has a very long list in the middle of the article that (at least to me) makes the article look finished - they may not read the rest.

chesspieceface,
I like your reconstruction and I see that it made its way to Wikipedia. It still needs to evolve around your narative with some wordsmithing and clarifications, but all-in-all a great start.

Suggestions, in no specific order
1. For reference there should be mention of all card sources to include at least:
Non-Sport Update
The Wrapper
Sport Americana Price Guides to the Non-Sports Cards (Chris Benjamin)
American Book of Checklists
American Card Catalog
Encyclopedia of Non-Sport and Entertainment Trading Cards (Todd Jordan)

2. "Tobacco Cards" is the more inclusive label, opposed to "Cigarette Cards". 100 years ago many were still rolling their own (and chewing) and the then current "tobacco products" with premiums reflected that.

3. Off-hand, I can't think of a card series before Return of the Jedi that has a header card. Most series do not have checklists. Headers and checklists probably aren't worth mentioning at this high a level of description

4. The Wikipedia title is "Non-Sports Trading Card" but the first sentence begins "Non-Sport Trading Cards".

5. "By the 1950's both sports and non-sport cards had achieved a popularity that allowed them to become the selling point."
Rework with, "The golden age of non-sport gum cards spanned 1933-1941 when bubblegum manufactures inserted a trading card as a promotion to sell more gum. The target market was kids. This came to an abrupt end with the outbreak of war. When non-sport card premiums resumed in 1950, it was short-lived in the sense that trading cards had achieved a popularity that enabled them to become the selling point, and gum became the premium. Trading cards, as promotional premiums, continue in other products to this day." (the essence of this, anyway)

6. "Hundreds of card sets have been released. The following are examples from different types that are or have been available."
The number is into the thousands with well over 1,800 since 1991.

7. List of Websites of all active card producers

8. "Non-sport trading cards are a particular kind of collectible card designated as such because trading cards have historically prominently featured athletes from the world of sports as subjects. Non-sports cards are trading cards whose subjects can be virtually anything other than sports-themed."

Maybe a shortened intro:
Non-sports cards are trading cards whose subjects can be virtually anything other than sports-themed. Non-sports trading cards are collected in the same manner as sports cards are collected. They share a common history.

9. Using Chris Benjamin's short history of trading cards would be ideal if permission could be obtained. It further makes mention of non-tobacco products whose cards preceeded bubblegum.

Thank you, Harris and Bill, excellent suggestions, one and all, but I'd expect no less from people whose efforts to advance our hobby have long been significant and are thankfully ongoing.

And Tangent, you couldn't be more correct in saying that anything we come up needs to be sourced to meet Wikipedia standards. I was aware of that and had actually mentioned the need to back up everything with sources in my diatribe above, but I accidentally deleted that from the post somehow.

The sourcing is crucial as not only does it provide a solid, verifiable foundation for the information cited, but it also, in the course of examining it all, allows for the correction of errors in facts that may have occurred in the Wikipedia entry, naturally, but sometimes even in the original writing being sourced, as well.

As much as possible, the entry should be devoid of opinion or hyperbole, and be composed of objective facts alone, so we should work to eliminate any information that could be considered subjective.
Finally, thanks to Chris Cline as well, for his efforts on this, and everyone else who has chimed in including lisalisa and wolfie.

If we didn't care, we wouldn't bother...

quote:

Originally posted by Bill DeFranzo:
3. Off-hand, I can't think of a card series before Return of the Jedi that has a header card. Most series do not have checklists. Headers and checklists probably aren't worth mentioning at this high a level of description.

Header cards go back at least as far as the 1950s. The silver cards in the Hopalong Cassidy set were rack-pack header cards.

The first paragraph is crucial to any entry.

It must define the subject first and foremost, but it's kind of an odd case with Non-Sports cards as their umbrella name "Non-Sports" doesn't really say what they are with any specificity, just what they aren't, sports cards.

I think it's important to indicate why they were given that name, to underscore that sports specific cards throughout history have vastly outnumbered their non-sport counterparts, and in that way, the various subject matter presented on Non-Sports cards is unusual (for the form of cards) by the virtue of its very existence.

Its like if Milk got so popular, that we just started calling juice, soda, and any other drink by the name "Not-Milk" (with Sportcards being Milk, and Non-sports being Not-Milk in my admittedly clumsy analogy. Sorry for it).

All of that to say that most cards that have been made throughout history and currently being made ARE sports cards, so it makes sense for any other subject to be relegated into the now gigantic non-sport realm. For purposes of Wikipedia, it would require research to be certain the seemingly true statement that sport cards are the dominant type of trading card is accurate. With the low print runs of modern non-sports cards of today as sport card presses continue to run wild, it would seem non-sport cards now constitute only a small percentage of all of the cards being produced in total.

The category "Sports" cards contains a lot of different kinds of sets, from multiple sports, both portrait and game action cards, with many of those sets that are issued in a continuing all-new edition year after year. Still, there are only so many sports, and certainly in terms of those which can command a trading card set, but the realm of non-sports is virtually unlimited. A visit to Mr. Allender's A to Z page on his awesome site would convince any Wiki skeptic of that seemingly exaggerated statement pretty quickly.

And how about gaming cards, particularly those from popularly collected subjects like Star Wars, Star Trek, Marvel and DC comics? How do those fit in? I collected the 1990's Decipher Star Wars Collectible Card Game just like the Topps Star Wars sets from that period. Although they were gaming cards, they were numbered sets, issued in packs, and had certain cards found in differing ratios, very like chase cards in regular Topps Star Wars sets.
I've heard a lot of arguments as to why they don't qualify, but with the popularity of Magic The Gathering and others, they would have to be mentioned in the entry even if only to indicate they aren't non sport cards, wouldn't they? We could call them Non-Non-Sport cards (kidding, I realize they are called Gaming Cards). They were very popular and helped keep a lot of the now gone card shops in business back in the nineties. Are they still popular?

A chart breaking down the total sales of Non-Sports as percentage of the various kinds of cards would allow for a good, provable "state of the hobby" for the Wiki entry.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Mullins:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill DeFranzo:
3. Off-hand, I can't think of a card series before Return of the Jedi that has a header card. Most series do not have checklists. Headers and checklists probably aren't worth mentioning at this high a level of description.

Header cards go back at least as far as the 1950s. The silver cards in the Hopalong Cassidy set were rack-pack header cards.

Nice observation. My comment was in reference to a statement that "most" series had Header/Title cards and checklists. It's my opinion that mentioning either is unnecessary at the level being discussed because most don't. Although making mention further down, hierarchically, makes sense. Getting off point for a second, it surprises me today to see card sets without Title cards where set sales are the norm. A checklist makes for a nice touch, as well, especially for spontaneous sales. It was a set of ESB, not ROJ as I previously mentioned, that caught my eye at a mall show and the collector in me was reborn. There are some sets which have used a pseudo-header approach like Davy Crockett orange. What a perfect #1 card! Most of the Inkworks promos and others which feature cast photos can serve the purpose of a header. When all else fails packaging sets with the wrapper are a nice PoP touch. Now I'm rambling.

Most important though is to make sure you get NSU and the other card manufacturers in there on the source list so you can plug free advertising.....

If I may make a suggestion for the entry on Wikipedia... when I began collecting auto & costume cards I was very confused by the many different terms that card manufactures used for costume cards. Maybe you can add a sentence in the "Memorabilia, Costume and Prop Cards" section à la:
There are many different terms used for costume cards depending on what card company manufactured the cards. The most notable terms that are used by manufactures for costume cards are: Pieceworks (Inkworks), Relic Cards (Rittenhouse Archive), Wardrobe Cards (Cryptozoic Entertainment), Costume Cards (Breygent Marketing).

I'm not a native English speaker, so the text above should be reviewed by someone who's mother tongue is English. Thanks

FYI, I'm currently creating a Wikipedia article for Inkworks, Inc.

Since I'm not a native English speaker, help on this article is appreciated by registered Wiki users who's mother tongue is English in order to avoid grammar or spelling errors.

Here is my current draft for Inkworks' Wiki article. It's just the start and FAR from being finished to release to the general database.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W...tion/_Inkworks,_Inc.

I will also upload the company's logo in the right info box and go deeper in how Inkworks changed from just a trading card company to being the world's best non-sport trading card company by including auto and costume cards to their sets.

Again, help on this article is highly appreciated because I'm not a native English speaker. Thanks

Good start, estephano. Couple of thing to note:

- In the first history section, I would delete "newest". That makes it sound like it's currently the newest James Bond movie, which it is not.

- Also in that section, what about The Phantom?

- That section could also mention the name change.

- In the 1998-2000 section, I think you might be inserting your own opinions too much. Too much for Wikipedia, anyway. I don't think they like things to be editorialized like that.

- In the 1998-2000 section....You mean "yielded", not "bearded"

- In the 1998-2000 section, selfishly I say, it would be nice if you linked to the Non-Sport Update Wikipedia page where you mention they won the annual Non-Sport Update Gummie Awards. They also won manufacturer awards several years as well and other product awards but I don't have the research on that. Perhaps if you have back issues, or someone else here does, you could research this more thoroughly.

Other things that could be said about the company:

- Would be worth noting their participation at Comic Con International

- It is also worth nothing how their stock was liquidated at the end and how boxes and inserts were offered by Razer, Cards Inc., and eBay sellers.

I'm sure there is more that can be added but that's what comes to mind after a very quick think.

quote:

Originally posted by H_Toser:
Good start, estephano. Couple of thing to note:

Glad you liked the first impression of it, but like I've said before, it's just a draft that needs to be worked on until its final release for Wiki.

quote:

Originally posted by H_Toser:
- In the first history section, I would delete "newest". That makes it sound like it's currently the newest James Bond movie, which it is not.

Yeah, you are right. I was thinking of "the then newest" Bond film, but I've now deleted "newest" per your request.

quote:

Originally posted by H_Toser:
- Also in that section, what about The Phantom?

I haven't included the 1998 "The Phantom" set and the 1996 "Pinocchio" set on purpose, because these were two major flops for inkworks shortly after they started their business. If you want I could do a complete list of all ever released Inkworks sets at the bottom of the article, so then "The Phantom" and "Pinocchio" would also show up.

quote:

Originally posted by H_Toser:
- That section could also mention the name change.

What do you mean by name change? As far as I know Graffiti was renamed into Inkworks back in 1995 and there is also a GoldenEye promo card that mentioned that name change. So all sets that had been released after 1995 were released under the name Inkworks.
However, you are free to write your text on here and I will insert it to the Wiki draft.

quote:

Originally posted by H_Toser:
- In the 1998-2000 section, I think you might be inserting your own opinions too much. Too much for Wikipedia, anyway. I don't think they like things to be editorialized like that.

I guess you refer to the text about the Titanic release. Of course it can be shortened to what it was: a smart move to get their hands on the license of the then highest-grossing film of all time.

quote:

Originally posted by H_Toser:
- In the 1998-2000 section....You mean "yielded", not "bearded"

[...]presented them with autograph cards that beared an authentic cast signature.[...]
I meant what I wrote: the cards beared an authentic signature. To bear = to carry = have on the surface

quote:

Originally posted by H_Toser:
- In the 1998-2000 section, selfishly I say, it would be nice if you linked to the Non-Sport Update Wikipedia page where you mention they won the annual Non-Sport Update Gummie Awards. They also won manufacturer awards several years as well and other product awards but I don't have the research on that. Perhaps if you have back issues, or someone else here does, you could research this more thoroughly.

Sure, no problem! I didn't know NSU had its own Wiki entry. Will link to your Wiki article in a moment.
I wanted to list all the awards that Inkworks has received in an "Awards" section, but I desperatly need infos from you or collector fellows who can help me make a complete award list.

quote:

Originally posted by H_Toser:
Other things that could be said about the company:

- Would be worth noting their participation at Comic Con International

Inkworks has been on so many Cons in the US and the UK, I don't think it's worth mentioning it.

quote:

Originally posted by H_Toser:
- It is also worth nothing how their stock was liquidated at the end and how boxes and inserts were offered by Razer, Cards Inc., and eBay sellers.

Oh yeah, sure it is worth noting that and that's already on my to-do list. But like I've said before, this article isn't something you do quickly in two hours and at the moment it's just a draft which will be continued. I'm still having 9 years of company history to fill

quote:

Originally posted by H_Toser:
I'm sure there is more that can be added but that's what comes to mind after a very quick think.

Once I'm through will all the text, I will start to add photo, such as the company's logo, scans of certain auto, costume and foil cards.

quote:

Originally posted by lisalisa:
Why not just turn the whole of the nonssport Wikipedia into a virtual billboard for NSU and its manufacturing affiliates so they can boost their revenue. :/ and lead every reader into thinking its all about marketing? I mean ya know?

I have not been involved in any of the work on wiki or even visited it, but if you feel concerned about any sort of a bent to the editing, by all means, add some things in. Isn't that the point of wiki? A page for the people from the people?
THat is both the good and the bad I'd imagine of wiki, but it's surely something to embrace if you feel it's needing a different voice. Be that voice and make sure the parts of the hobby you hold dear are up there.