There is another factor which I have observed. It's called summer. I have noticed that for the last 10 years, Ebay and more recently this board's activity level slows down during the summer months. I too used to think that hordes of people were leaving the hobby. Frankly, that's why I don't usually sell anything in the summer. No doubt the econmy has added an addtional stressor to the situation. This downturn, however, is seasonal and ephemeral.
My guess is that barring any catastrophe such as a new war in the Middle East, we'll see the level of buyers,sellers and cardtalkers back to a healthy level by September.

For what it's worth at my store I've been selling more non-sports cards than ever. I had pretty much stopped carrying them because nothing (other than Topps' GPK, Wacky Packages and Hollywood Zombies) ever sold and ended up getting clearanced. Recently I had ordered some boxes of Indiana Jones & the Crystal Skull for myself and on a whim decided to open one and put it up for sale. Lo and behold it actually sold out in just a couple of days and I ended up selling the other 3 boxes I'd ordered for myself as well. I also just sold out a box of Heroes 2 (and have had requests for more) and a box of Star Trek 40th I found in the back of the store that someone had ordered but never bought. I've also had people coming in looking for Marvel Masterpiece 2 (which we'll get from Diamond next week) and I ordered a box of X-Files as well.

Small change, I know, but it makes me happy.

-Bob-

quote:

Originally posted by TheUberBob:
For what it's worth at my store I've been selling more non-sports cards than ever. I had pretty much stopped carrying them because nothing (other than Topps' GPK, Wacky Packages and Hollywood Zombies) ever sold and ended up getting clearanced. Recently I had ordered some boxes of Indiana Jones & the Crystal Skull for myself and on a whim decided to open one and put it up for sale. Lo and behold it actually sold out in just a couple of days and I ended up selling the other 3 boxes I'd ordered for myself as well. I also just sold out a box of Heroes 2 (and have had requests for more) and a box of Star Trek 40th I found in the back of the store that someone had ordered but never bought. I've also had people coming in looking for Marvel Masterpiece 2 (which we'll get from Diamond next week) and I ordered a box of X-Files as well.

Small change, I know, but it makes me happy.

-Bob-

How Come you don't send any to your store here in Austin, Your employees keep telling me that they won't sell any, because they don't sell?

I can't find any store in Austin that sells Non-Sport Cards. With gas the way it is, I don't think I'm driving to San Antonio anytime soon.

It seems likely there is shrinkage of late, and it may well continue. There are definitely some curious decisions being made lately by two of the biggest companies. Topps has been responsible for most of the genuine "head-scratchers" lately, all well documented in this and other forums, so I'll just discuss a recent decision by Upper Deck.

Upper Deck produced an awesome product with the return of Marvel Masterpieces last year. But despite the fact they were Hobby Exclusive, limited to only 12,000 boxes, and most importantly loaded with good to excellent sketches by a wide array of artists, those boxes are still available at close to issue price.

With that in mind, I find it curious that for the brand new series II, they upped the run by at least 50% (18K boxes this time not counting the coming retail version).
I do think the company will sell through to distributors again this time, so as far as UD is concerned, its another hit, meaning we can look for an even larger run (20K+) for series III.

But the problem at that time could be that so many dealers still will have the the Series II boxes (and maybe even a few of those Series I boxes, as well), that orders may end up being so low for Series III, that this new "Golden Age" of Masterpieces ends then as Upper Deck would be unlikely to continue the series if they are stuck with a mountain of unsold (even temporarily) Series III, which would truly be a shame and would only hasten this apparent onset of collector apathy.

Having been a card collector for nearly 30 years now, I feel qualified in saying that this current era feels a lot like 1996-1998 when Fleer/Skybox released some awesome sets that were greeted with outright yawns (*see aside below) by collectors precipitating a nearly 10 year gap in the release of major Comics related sets (not counting the Topps Hulk and Marvel Legends sets.), long an indicator of the health of the larger hobby for the past 20 years. It's not a good sign either, that there is no traditional set for the new Batman or Hulk movies, despite the fact that both are blockbusters.

(*Aside: Believe it or not, sealed boxes of Fleer Ultra Spider-Man 98, Marvel Masterpieces 1996, Marvel Silver Age, and Marvel Creators Collection all hit dealer clearance tables for several years after their releases despite limited print runs and their generally high quality.)

Granted the "awesome three" (as I call them) of Inkworks, Artbox, and Rittenhouse do not have certain demands placed upon them that Topps and Upper Deck likely do (if I'm not mistaken, Topps & UD are both publicly traded companies, and I know both make HUGE amounts of money in sports cards). So while I believe the more customer friendly, exclusively Non-Sport companies will remain solid it seems that if either Topps or UD (more likely) decided not to be in the business of those lower print run, carefully targeted releases and decided to get out of Non-Sports, it would not be good for our hobby, and could contribute to further shrinkage.

Finally, I love sketch cards, autographs, costume/prop cards, etc., as much as the next collector, but I find it unfortunate that for a great many, all of the cards packed around the so called "hits", namely the base cards and traditional insert sets are essentially a fancy UV coated wrapping to be cast off, and as just valuable to specu-collectors as the just cast off skin to the snake slithering away from it.

But I am an optimist, so sure enough, their is a silver lining even in that. I do love the fact that I can often get "mini-masters" (all of the base and "regular" chase sets) of many sets for about the cost of 2 sealed boxes (and sometime even just 1!). This is a great value and convenience for those of who somehow still can enjoy cards that have been not written on, drawn on, or worn by someone.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: chesspieceface,

Is the market shrinking?

That's a tough question to answer. I'm compelled to say yes it is. It's rather blurry, but the signs point that way. The one factor that is very distracting is there's a lot more money being paid out, if not in direct market, then certainly in the after market. But let's try to look past that.

What is being done to attract a new customer base? Let's see, first rule of sales here, one has to be aware of the product in order to be interested in buying it. Here's where I have to speculate a bit, but from my observations, many hobby shops have closed their doors over the last 10 years. I understand there are some chain stores that carry some product, so that's a plus. Then there are "Comic Conventions", which gives producers and dealers a chance to promote their product. Another plus, though rather limited exposure.

It's been years since I walked into a store and found new cards for sale. But even so, I still remember the first time I saw a box of "Star Wars" cards back in 1977, and I just had to have some! To make a long story short, back in the day, you could find cards almost anywhere for sale. Most of us who've been collecting for many years started collecting when we were around 10 years old.

The question is, how many kids can say that today? There are people who don't even know non-sport cards are still being produced today, if at all. The hobby is pretty healthy today, considering the changes it's gone through, but how long can it keep up? How long will the same kind of cards sell? I think we're nearing the edge of indifference- there's definitely a 2,3, or even 4 tier collecting stratum out there, but most of the attention seems focused upon only 1 lately. And ladies and gentlemen- that is not where the future is. That's the here & now, and it's approaching burnout.

The focus needs to start to shift towards the young 'uns a whole lot more. That's where the future lies in this hobby. And that's one sure way of keeping it alive for years to come. Having product more widely available at reasonable prices is also a sure way of bringing in new customers of all ages.

Some product has been exclusive, lately. That's very convincing evidence of shrinkage, if you ask me.

quote:

Originally posted by Komodo:
It's been years since I walked into a store and found new cards for sale.

The focus needs to start to shift towards the young 'uns a whole lot more. That's where the future lies in this hobby. And that's one sure way of keeping it alive for years to come. Having product more widely available at reasonable prices is also a sure way of bringing in new customers of all ages.

Some product has been exclusive, lately. That's very convincing evidence of shrinkage, if you ask me.

You made quite a few points, but I'll just comment on a couple. Not sure how it is in your part of Canada but I can still find a few hobby stores selling new cards, and even new non-sport cards, in my area. Many have closed in the last few years, but what I really miss is being a "weekend warrior" at local card shows. I used to be able to go to 2 or 3 per month and now they are all gone. But I don't attribute it so much to a lack of interest, although that has fallen off too, as I do to eBay. Many of the dealers got the bright idea that they didn't need to pay $50 on a table and spend their Saturdays and Sundays at a show when they could make just as much or more selling on the internet. What they didn't realize is that it destroys that generational thing where adults can bring their kids to a show and get them interested in collecting.

You are correct that product is expensive and exclusive and this is also shutting the kids out even more. On the other hand, kids are into electronic gaming and on-line-chatting like Facebook and if they get into cards at all its the gaming cards. So more and more both sports card and non-sport card collectoring is being dominated by adults with discretionary income who are in their second childhood.

I don't mean that in a bad way, I'm in my 2nd childhood too.

quote:

Originally posted by Raven:
Many of the dealers got the bright idea that they didn't need to pay $50 on a table and spend their Saturdays and Sundays at a show when they could make just as much or more selling on the internet.

So more and more both sports card and non-sport card collectoring is being dominated by adults with discretionary income who are in their second childhood.

Both correct and just about sums up what is going on.

I'm not sure about Canada, but there are more places in the states selling cards than there have been in years.

Target sells a lot of different sets. Walmart is carrying some too. The comic shop I go to has been carrying more cards in the past two years or so. . . so there definitely are more places to buy cards around here than there were a few years ago.

I think the fact that Target has probably nearly a dozen non-sport releases is a VERY good sign for the growth and future of the hobby.

Jon

Let me see, would I rather spend a couple of hours at a computer posting to a world-wide audience so they could see my products for 7 days, or would I rather do a mall show, which requires me to burn a vacation day from work, be at the mall for 3 days, and sit there from 9am until 9pm?

Sorry, but ebay does indeed sound like a pretty bright idea to me.

Yes, I do miss the conversations with collectors, it was always fun to chat with a hardcore fan of a particular license. It was also a opportunity to make some buys as well as trades, but those really good deals were few and far between. As for establishing a loyal customer base, well I've managed to get a number of return buyers, several from this board.

I too used to do shows on a weekly basis, which were based in various hotels, however the promoter decided rising room costs, lack of attendence, and time issues just didn't make the effort worthwhile. The promoter who ran the mall show circuit also found himself facing similar issues and he too folded.

I honestly don't believe this supposed issue about new blood in the hobby is really a valid one. When I bought Mars Attacks, Civil War News, or any of the other many titles that were available to me as a child, I never looked at it as a hobby or a long term thing. The cards got chucked on an annual basis, whenever my mom wanted me to clean-up my things. I sincerely believe collecting is for the most part an adult endeavor.

quote:

Originally posted by Arvin Sloane:
Sorry, but ebay does indeed sound like a pretty bright idea to me.

Yes, I do miss the conversations with collectors, it was always fun to chat with a hardcore fan of a particular license. It was also a opportunity to make some buys as well as trades, but those really good deals were few and far between. As for establishing a loyal customer base, well I've managed to get a number of return buyers, several from this board.

I honestly don't believe this supposed issue about new blood in the hobby is really a valid one. When I bought Mars Attacks, Civil War News, or any of the other many titles that were available to me as a child, I never looked at it as a hobby or a long term thing. The cards got chucked on an annual basis, whenever my mom wanted me to clean-up my things. I sincerely believe collecting is for the most part an adult endeavor.

Absolutely true, it was a bright idea for dealers and buyers alike, but what eBay giveth, eBay taketh away. In person collecting was hard work. And it was fun when you finally found what you were looking for and you actually met a bunch of people of similar interests. Online buying makes finding almost any card very simple and its just a matter of whether you can afford the price. The thrill of the chase and the personal contacts are gone.

Don't misunderstand me. I buy online too because its the most efficient way of getting cards today, but yes I would rather go to a local show if there were any promoters doing them anymore.

As for not needing any new blood in the hobby, every industry has to find new business or it becomes obsolute when the old customers fade away. I agree with you that adults are the biggest card collectors and I said just that in my original post, but those adults more often than not liked cards and comics as kids. They may not have kept great collections, but they came back to it later on because now they can afford it and it reminds them of being young.

If you don't try to get kids interested in cards and comics then the card industry is going to have to hope that a lot of 35 year old men suddenly wake up one day and say "Gee, I feel like getting a Batman sketch card." That doesn't happen unless the seeds are already sowed, and eBay alone is not the answer to attract kids to the hobby.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Raven,

I wish I could say that were true here, jon. The last time I saw cards for sale at a dept store was Rock Cards & Star Trek 25th Anniversary back in '91 at Walmart. A variety store actually had Topps Desert Storm cards , well, that was in '91 too. Hmmm... our Blockbuster carried Star Wars Vehicles in '97. I saw something called "Webkins" cards for sale at a place I went last year. There were a few dealers who carried new product- 2 in town, and a couple in London. I don't know of anyone who does, now.

If I'm not mistaken, gaming cards have taken a nose dive. I see some brave merchants still trying to get rid of stock without much success. I don't even glance at sports cards, so...

Arvin- I find it hard to believe you don't see the need for new blood. I think you underestimate how the experiences of childhood influence the rest of our lives. I think I'm an exception, anyway LOL. I rarely throw anything away, unless it's worn out, or I really don't want it anymore. I'm more likely to sell it, or just give it away. Meaning I still have a little handful of near useless stuff I hope I never lose because it means so much to me. A plastic popsicle stick, for example. Or a t-shirt with a bunch of names scribbled on it by kids I barely remember anymore.

Think about this- you may have thrown the cards away as a kid, but you still collect cards to this day, am I right? I don't think I need to do the math, but if no one else started buying, it's just a matter of time before there's no one left. Add in the burnout factor, & the number shrinks even faster.

OK, even if nothing were available for kids, there's still plenty of people who sign in here as a new collector who've just discovered the hobby with new product. I love reading those threads- it's awesome! It means that it's evidence that this hobby does have a future. I hope so, at least!

If the market had to depend upon collectors like me, it would be a sorry state of affairs LOL. I gotta settle for the scraps, so to speak, but I still love it! I see it as a challenge, & I live for that. It gives my life a little bit more meaning. And I need all that I can get, believe you me.

But luckily (I hate that word ), there are all kinds of collectors out there, who keep it alive and interesting. And, there are a lot more potential collectors out there- all they need is a tap on the shoulder:

"Hey there- take a look at this. Sound interesting?"

There are lots of ways to do just that.

I think we both agree that personal contacts at shows can be rewarding, however I am not sure why you feel that the thrill is gone if you are looking on ebay as opposed to going to a show.

I'm not sure what it's like in the New York area, but here in North Carolina there are just a few individuals who were regulars on the show curcuit that carried nonsport. I know I've attended several shows where the closest to nonsport were some wrestling cards. It's bad enough driving a couple of hours to a mall show and not finding nothing, but going to a show where you have to pay admission to get in is even worse.

I am not sure that it's necessary for today's kids to collect cards like we did in order for them to become collectors later in life. There are alot more options available to the kids of today and most of them do/can segueway nicely into collecting as we know it. Anime, Manga, Video Games, and Comics all can lead people to eventually collect cards.

An interesting & hard to answer question. The non-sport card market IS changing, but shrinking? HArd to say.
I think the number of hard-core collectors (lets say those that will buy at least a case of the sets that interest them) has risen over the last few yrs.
It seems the number of mid-tier collectors (lets call them those that will buy a box & maybe packs of 3-4 releases a year) has fallen.
The number of mild, or non-collectors (those that will buy a set or 2 of the subject matter that they enjoy, but not but anything again for months) has risen.
It looks like the market is kinda remaining the same, but just different. The major problem being, it seems less people are buying a higher % of the product. If/when they go away, will there be anyone there to take their place?

Thats trying to look at the collector side of the question, not the dealers'.

quote:

Originally posted by Arvin Sloane:
I think we both agree that personal contacts at shows can be rewarding, however I am not sure why you feel that the thrill is gone if you are looking on ebay as opposed to going to a show.

I'm not sure what it's like in the New York area, but here in North Carolina there are just a few individuals who were regulars on the show curcuit that carried nonsport. I know I've attended several shows where the closest to nonsport were some wrestling cards. It's bad enough driving a couple of hours to a mall show and not finding nothing, but going to a show where you have to pay admission to get in is even worse.

I am not sure that it's necessary for today's kids to collect cards like we did in order for them to become collectors later in life. There are alot more options available to the kids of today and most of them do/can segueway nicely into collecting as we know it. Anime, Manga, Video Games, and Comics all can lead people to eventually collect cards.

Well this is probably getting off topic, and maybe someone should start a thread about the pros and cons of eBay if it hasn't been discussed in a while, but I think it has definitely cut both ways.

I said the thrill of the chase is gone because eBay makes even rare cards fairly easy to find. Availability was always half the battle. After that its just a matter of price and it becomes a contest of who is willing to bid it up the highest. That's a plus for sellers of very desirable items, but for average items the opposite usually applies.

eBay pricing has destroyed many of the collectible markets because the product requires no effort to find and is available in more numbers than buyers. I really don't want to take up anymore space here, but internet buying and eBay auctions come with just as much bad effects as good.

As far as your take on kid's interests, well they have changed a lot since I was kid and the video and gaming influence is hugh, so I can see where you're coming from.

One thing that has worked in the favor of the non-sport market is that collectible card games like Pokemon, Yu-Gi-Oh etc. have gotten kids used to the idea of buying a pack of cards that costs $3-4 and most NS packs are much less than that. I just make sure to explain to the kids looking at the Inkworks Naruto cards that those cards don't have a game to go with them and they're usually cool with it.

-Bob-

quote:

Originally posted by KnightQuest:

How Come you don't send any to your store here in Austin, Your employees keep telling me that they won't sell any, because they don't sell?

I can't find any store in Austin that sells Non-Sport Cards. With gas the way it is, I don't think I'm driving to San Antonio anytime soon.

I've actually been talking to them a little about that recently. I ordered some extra Marvel Masterpiece boxes and was planning on sending one up there. I'll see what I can do.

Oh, before I forget, you should try Jr's Comics on Slaughter Lane. They usually have a bunch of stuff. I saw them at a show this past weekend and they confirmed they'll be set up at San Diego again as well.

-Bob-

-Bob-

quote:

Originally posted by KnightQuest:

quote:

Originally posted by Raven:
And finally the hobby is changing in terms of sticker autographs, higher priced packs, dealer incentives, over production of sketches and so forth. A lot of older collectors don't like the directions.

AGREED !!

Damn sticker autographs. Let's see how many will be crying when they start peeling or falling off in about five years. For me, RA will be the only product I will be purchasing (unless they move to stickers also, then I'm out!)
I know I'm missing out on some great names (Ford, Anderson, Duchovny), but I REFUSE to buy stickers.
Lucky for you, your odds just got better I guess. One less person collecting.

So sad, Inkworks you were my favorite.

Sorry it's been a while since I've posted, and I just had to vent.

As opposed to the old sports card from the 90's that the autograph has faded off completely, at least I can glue a sticker back on I can not sign over someones signature that would be illegal..

quote:

So you grew by at least 1 person.

And there is a seller on ebay selling their cards because of the way people are treated on here by the "real" collectors..

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Jim Streich,

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Streich:
As opposed to the old sports card from the 90's that the autograph has faded off completely, at least I can glue a sticker back on I can not sign over someones signature that would be illegal..

So this will be your autographs future best friend ??



I better buy some stock in this.

Beats having a blank card where the autograph used to be after the marker fades or chips off..