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Gold Card Talk Member
Picture of mykdude
posted Hide Post
What about defacing a licensed card to make a cut autograph card? Numbered to 199.

Is it different than just getting the card signed?

Personally I don't like this method due to creative laziness but another grey area. I even hate it when the card companies do it.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/25593...rksid=p2047675.l2557

On the bright side if we can get a 100 custom makers to destroy this card there will be only 99 of them. More rare!! Dance

This message has been edited. Last edited by: mykdude,

____________________
Just because it's rare doesn't mean it's valuable.
 
Posts: 4901 | Location: Tennessee | Registered: March 09, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Diamond Card Talk Member
Picture of Raven
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by mykdude:
quote:
Originally posted by Raven:

A Google search produced no information or website for the card maker named, except for a couple of other eBay items.

Since it was created as an autograph card, not as a card that got signed later, the assumption would be that the guarantee of authenticity would lie somewhere in the production process. But if you don't know where to find the maker, well you can see the problem.


Sorry that one went right over my head. You can't google a fake card maker.

Aren't all autograph cards signed later...after they are created?

The only guarantee the auction in question can provide is that it is a card and Emilia signed it. Interestingly enough no authenticating information on the signature is provided. Doesn't even offer a third party authentication guarantee. Every red flag is waving high on this one I have no sympathy for the buyer if in fact they were fooled.


There are two parts to consider with this type of an item and each should be looked at separately. Simply put, is the card good and is the autograph good?

There might be no definitive answer and I caution about making broad statements. I can pass on an item without trying to convince everyone else to pass on it. That's up to them.

Having said that, the reason I do Google name searches is because, just because I never heard of some company doesn't mean it doesn't exist. If you get no information back, at least you know that you can find no one to contact. So now, if it wasn't already disclosed, I know the card may be a custom. For some people that isn't a deal breaker.

The deal breaker is in the 2nd part, the autograph. An unlicensed card on a licensed title will not carrying any value itself, but the autograph has value, especially for some high demand signers.

Now here's where it gets tricky, because bad signatures can look good and good signatures can look bad. If you have been looking at autographs as long as I have you learn not to call anything "fake" because, even if you're right, people get upset with you for telling them. And you could be wrong. Some signers are so inconsistent or so sloppy, anything could be a genuine autograph. Only autopens can be accurately called once you see a few together.

So with a signed custom card, obtaining that autograph is the same as with a licensed certified card. It's done within the production process. Yes, you're right, it's always done later than card creation, but it's still in the production process. With RA cards as an example, buyers have faith in that process. They know they have contracts with these signers. They know RA has a reputation to protect. There can be and have been a mistake, but there is no normal reason to doubt an autograph coming out of an RA product.

On a custom autograph card with no company or licenses standing behind it, there can be no faith in the production process. Someone is going to have to provide documentation and authentication on that autograph. And then that authentication will have to be verifiable itself and not some worthless COA that also means nothing.

People don't have to follow any of that advice. They can buy autographs on cards or anything else, just because they look good compared to other examples and they believe the story, whatever the story is. But if you want to be sure you aren't wasting your money. And if you think there will be value in your collection, you have to not just see the red flags, but respect them, even when you'd rather not.

If you have a big signer, in big demand, worth big money, the genuine autographs available for sale are going to be highly limited and no bargains. Them's just the facts. Big Grin
 
Posts: 10467 | Location: New York | Registered: November 20, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Gold Card Talk Member
Picture of mykdude
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Well, I think that is a long way to say that you and I aren't saying anything different.

A custom is an unlicensed card
A licensed card is a licensed card. The autographs are not 100 percent but have a higher reliability rate.
A collector may or may not be able to rely on the guarantee of the manufacture.
An autograph is either real or fake. It is completely up to the buyer if they wish to buy without proof.
It is also my understanding that card makers get signatures much cheaper than fans at a convention would. Increasing manufacture profit margin while decreasing it for custom card makers. Of course the variables to creating a whole set are far more vast then making a single card.

I also think we both agree that if levels of deception are employed to make a buyer think they are getting a licensed card then it is infringing on various components of the hobby.

How far the deception goes and what damage it causes will most likely be the only determining factor for outside policing or intervention.

Like it or not it is buyer beware and be smart until then.

Not sure I agree with your last line as genuine autographs enter into a wide value range based on agreements and what is being signed. Emilia Clarke's signed comic book can still be found for under $50.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: mykdude,

____________________
Just because it's rare doesn't mean it's valuable.
 
Posts: 4901 | Location: Tennessee | Registered: March 09, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Diamond Card Talk Member
Picture of Raven
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by mykdude:
What about defacing a licensed card to make a cut autograph card? Numbered to 199.

Is it different than just getting the card signed?

Personally I don't like this method due to creative laziness but another grey area. I even hate it when the card companies do it.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/25593...rksid=p2047675.l2557

On the bright side if we can get a 100 custom makers to destroy this card there will be only 99 of them. More rare!! Dance


OK, this is an example of another type of custom autograph card that has appeared on eBay in this recent "cottage industry" of custom cards. I'm not commenting on the specific auction. I hope everyone is happy with what they got. I'm commenting about the method.

That was a base card from an RA GoT set. The card itself is worth $2 or $3. The numbering on the card refers to its original production and not what happened to it.

The card has been destroyed by either cutting a large part out of the front or just pasting something else on top of it. I really can't tell from the scan how well the autograph portion was attached and its now in a slab, so even in hand it would be protected. However you'll notice that there is no condition grading on that slab because modifying the card in this manner would negate any grade. So now only the autograph counts for value.

I'm not trying to verify that Beckett number. If they passed it, then they did. Beckett will authenticate autographs on any material and I'm guessing that they have no rule against homemade "cut" cards, when they would authenticate plain in-person signatures on cards. The card is not counterfeit itself. The only difference is that it encourages the practice for other people to do it, and hope to get better money for it on eBay without even the work of making a custom card, which would be equally worthless.

I can't tell what that item actually sold for, but I'm sure it's a fraction of what you'd have to pay for any of her certified cards. Just as I'm sure it was still a fair amount of money to spend on something that will never have the demand one of her certified autograph cards.

It's all up to the market to encourage or discourage this type of card modification. And I think it's probably up to card manufacturers, who are paying to produce their own certified autograph cards, to talk to third-party authenticators about how their service is supporting this unlicensed competition. That's only my opinion of course.
 
Posts: 10467 | Location: New York | Registered: November 20, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Diamond Card Talk Member
Picture of Raven
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quote:
Originally posted by mykdude:
Not sure I agree with your last line as genuine autographs enter into a wide value range based on agreements and what is being signed. Emilia Clarke's signed comic book can still be found for under $50.


Not sure how many people know about that comic book, or if it's still available. I got one back when it first came out for $20. Now you've just started them running to find a good "cut". Big Grin

We always agree mykdude, its only the small details that may differ. Smile
 
Posts: 10467 | Location: New York | Registered: November 20, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Gold Card Talk Member
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This "replica" talk reminds me of a card I saw on Ebay a few years ago. I posted about it here:

http://nonsportupdate.infopop....007031196#6007031196

The real Simpsons II P4 promo ("Willy The Dupe Dipkin" - not to be confused with the far more common B1 "Willy The Dupe Dipkin promo inserted with a Simpsons comic) is valuable. In recent years, it sold in the $80-130 range but I hadn't seen one sell for at least a year until seeing that a graded one (PSA5 - EX) went for something less than $1000 earlier this month. Somebody had made some cards but also printed "reprint" on the back. I noticed at least a few were sold for $10 and maybe as high as $30 but I haven't seen any recently. The reprint is clearly unlicensed since it was a Skybox card and Skybox is long gone. What company reprints a promo years down the line anyway?
 
Posts: 4429 | Location: San Jose, CA, USA | Registered: December 23, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Silver Card Talk Member
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quote:
Originally posted by mykdude:
Beckett should have looked at this and immediately refused to put their sticker on it.


All that Beckett was authenticating was that Emilia Clarke signed it -- not that the card was licensed or authentic.

(and it's a little bit scary that when I found several Beckett Authenticated cards in ebay, and checked their numbers against the Beckett databae, they came back "No Record Found".
Like this one)

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Bill Mullins,
 
Posts: 2228 | Location: Huntsville, AL United States | Registered: November 30, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Diamond Card Talk Member
Picture of Raven
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Mullins:

(and it's a little bit scary that when I found several Beckett Authenticated cards in ebay, and checked their numbers against the Beckett databae, they came back "No Record Found".


OK, another issue. If a card has been slabbed by a grading service, whether it's for condition grading, autograph authentication, or both, it gets a number and some kind of label or seal with that number on it. If anyone is going to buy that card, it would behoove them to verify that number with the grader's database. If the grader has gone out of business it gets harder, but that's what makes Beckett and PSA so much more desirable than lesser names.

Assuming that the search has been done right, if the person finds no record of the card or a different item comes up attached to that number, there is a big problem.

I don't buy graded or authenticated cards, but I would check any number first if ever I wanted to get one.

That would be especially true for anyone thinking of buying an item that was relying on the grader's verification of the signature because the card itself isn't certified, may or may not be licensed, and provides no guarantee of anything. If you are given a verification number that doesn't exist, or is mismatched to something else, that crosses all lines and there is only one word for it.
 
Posts: 10467 | Location: New York | Registered: November 20, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Silver Card Talk Member
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quote:
Originally posted by Raven:
If you are given a verification number that doesn't exist, or is mismatched to something else, that crosses all lines and there is only one word for it.


Raven -- these aren't numbers given by the sellers. These are numbers off of what are ostensibly Beckett stickers. Check the one I linked above - I'd be interested in seeing if others get the same results. And this Daisy Ridley card, from the same seller as the Emilia Clarke card mentioned upthread, has Beckett sticker #WY18002. When I check it, I also get "No Record Found."
 
Posts: 2228 | Location: Huntsville, AL United States | Registered: November 30, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Diamond Card Talk Member
Picture of Raven
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Bill, I don't buy this stuff and don't know the difference between what you are calling a Beckett sticker and what I call a verification number on a slab. If they are not the same thing, or need to be searched differently, then maybe we'll all learn something about it.

My comment was simple. If you buy something that's slabbed for any reason, and it has a number, don't just assume it's good. If you are supposed to check the database, you should check it. That would be even more important if you are relying on the third-party authentication to support an autograph that has been obtained without other documentation or a good guarantee.

OK I looked at the card you referenced and it's not in a slab, it's in a magnetic holder. It has a seal affixed to the back. I have no idea about it. I have seen UD use holographic stickers on signed photos, but I know nothing of Beckett's procedures if it's not a slabbed item. So this is up to the rest of you guys to explain better, and it should be informative.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Raven,
 
Posts: 10467 | Location: New York | Registered: November 20, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Gold Card Talk Member
Picture of mykdude
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Mullins:
quote:
Originally posted by mykdude:
Beckett should have looked at this and immediately refused to put their sticker on it.


All that Beckett was authenticating was that Emilia Clarke signed it -- not that the card was licensed or authentic.

(and it's a little bit scary that when I found several Beckett Authenticated cards in ebay, and checked their numbers against the Beckett databae, they came back "No Record Found".
Like this one)


Yeah I get that all Beckett is doing is authenticating the sig, I'm saying they should have a standard of not putting their name on obvious attempts to make a card look licensed when it is a custom. Not saying they should be responsible for all issues copyright but some stuff is just blatant. If they were to say something like we will no longer authenticate customs with small print or logo legal terms (real or fake) I think it would be an effective deterrent.

That's another great point with unreliable lookup data. These authentication companies just seem to be rolling with the times and ditching their older processes and promises to past customers. I have been told if you contact them they can find it but that is no good for someone deciding on an auction.

____________________
Just because it's rare doesn't mean it's valuable.
 
Posts: 4901 | Location: Tennessee | Registered: March 09, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post



Diamond Card Talk Member
Picture of Raven
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by mykdude:
That's another great point with unreliable lookup data. These authentication companies just seem to be rolling with the times and ditching their older processes and promises to past customers. I have been told if you contact them they can find it but that is no good for someone deciding on an auction.


What I don't understand, now that I'm looking at it, is the difference between Beckett's authentication with a slabbed card and with just a sticker. I read their FAQ page and it keeps referring to encapsulated cards, but there is also mention of stickers to be placed on the item or the certificate.

Is this a matter of fees? Maybe going for a sticker is cheaper than getting the slab? It seems like the stickers started in 2021, but what are they guaranteeing, and you still have to be able to look them up. Has anybody here used this service for a signature verification themselves?
 
Posts: 10467 | Location: New York | Registered: November 20, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Diamond Card Talk Member
Picture of Raven
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So I guess no one knows about Beckett's stickers? OK.

Word to the wise, or not . . .

"House of the Dragon" autograph cards are now popping up on eBay and they look nice.
 
Posts: 10467 | Location: New York | Registered: November 20, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Gold Card Talk Member
Picture of mykdude
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It looks like the stickers are an onsite verification stamp.

Many of the mail in services are offering a Beckett sticker for a small fee. Pretty much no authenticating required because they are witnessing it. JSA does the same thing at conventions.

Unfortunately the RA full bleed design is one of the simplest for custom card makers to do. I have no doubt HotD is out there.

____________________
Just because it's rare doesn't mean it's valuable.
 
Posts: 4901 | Location: Tennessee | Registered: March 09, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Gold Card Talk Member
Picture of mykdude
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Just looked em up....those are something RA and HBO should be shutting down.

____________________
Just because it's rare doesn't mean it's valuable.
 
Posts: 4901 | Location: Tennessee | Registered: March 09, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Diamond Card Talk Member
Picture of Raven
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quote:
Originally posted by mykdude:
Just looked em up....those are something RA and HBO should be shutting down.


Yep, but my beef is still with eBay for claiming to worry about the authenticity on expensive cards, while allowing questionable created-for-sale customs to flourish.
 
Posts: 10467 | Location: New York | Registered: November 20, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Silver Card Talk Member
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Playing devil's advocate here . . .

It's very easy for HBO and Rittenhouse to get these removed. If they don't care, why should ebay get involved?
 
Posts: 2228 | Location: Huntsville, AL United States | Registered: November 30, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Diamond Card Talk Member
Picture of Raven
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quote:
Originally posted by Bill Mullins:
Playing devil's advocate here . . .

It's very easy for HBO and Rittenhouse to get these removed. If they don't care, why should ebay get involved?


Oh I agree that the license holders should be pressuring eBay to clean up and remove the listings. The license holders should also be going after the sellers, but that is a mind field. Sellers come and go and will claim to have no knowledge of the product pedigree. It isn't up to the public or card collectors to police anything either.

However, eBay knows exactly what these items are and has the best shot of cutting them off or allowing them to spread, and the fact is that they will spread. For all the concern about buyer protection, as long as someone is buying them, they will spread. eBay doesn't get involved, that's fairly obvious.

So if this thread does anything at all, I hope that it brings more awareness to what is being offered on eBay in regard to autograph cards that may not be what they seem at first glance. Custom cards have received a new level of acceptance and that is up to the collector. Just know the drawbacks and watch out for the stuff that is designed to be misleading, like hand signed replicas. I still can't figure that one out. Big Grin
 
Posts: 10467 | Location: New York | Registered: November 20, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Silver Card Talk Member
posted Hide Post
The only people who are harmed by these are the IP owners/licensors. If I make an unlicensed Emilia Clarke card and get it signed, it's fair to say that she doesn't care. If Rittenhouse and HBO (and George R.R. Martin and any other party with an IP interest) routinely let these go on for year after year, again it's fair to say that they simply don't care. That being the case, why should you or I or anyone else care?

I just don't see it as Ebay's job to police this sort of stuff. Their time would be better spent fixing their core business - listing and facilitating the sale of 3rd party items.
 
Posts: 2228 | Location: Huntsville, AL United States | Registered: November 30, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Platinum Card Talk Member
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In my view eBay is a platform -- their duty is to maintain the platform and respond to requests/complaints by rights holders.

It isn't their duty to police the platform for IP violations that they aren't informed about.

On the other hand PSA has very recently graded cards that are not legitimate and use IP from several manufacturers as well as include pretty clearly questionable autographs. PSA, IMO should have a duty to determine if a card is legitimate as they are grading/authenticating the card.
 
Posts: 5429 | Location: Parts Unknown. | Registered: January 25, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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