I have been watching posts on sketches go by for some time now and I find myself in something of a turmoil,
For a start I always look upon card collecting as a hobby where I try to collect5 a full set of some particular title or other. If that set contains sketches then so be it, they are an integral part of the set. However, I am seeing more and more posts where people are commissoning their own art-work from artists and I question whether this is part of our hobby (read passion). Desiring a specific piece of art is all very admirable if that what rocks your boat but it cannot mean anything more than just that - a one-off piece of art. You have this one of a kind piece, and I (nor anyone else) can ever aspire to own it. So where does this card fit within the bounds of our hobby? Does a unique piece of art have any interest to a collector? What set does it belong to?
I'm trying very hard not to be critical here but I do want to question whether an original sketch is a collectable.

It's collectable for sure.I see no difference other than scale between the sketch collector and the fine art collector who buys Van Gogh paintings.

Whether it is part of collecting trading cards is much harder to decide and I suspect everyones position will be different in smaller or larger ways.

Personally If I have a sketch of a particular character from a TV show I will put it with the sets from that show (I have a couple of lovely Warren Martinek sketches of Faith and Sydney Bristow that are in with my Buffy and Alias cards).

You have identified a crossover passion opportunity. Association gets even trickier if you talk about Artist Returns from sketch-card sets. But in general, I rule that it doesn't "belong" to a set unless it was issued with the set or was done on the unique card stock.

Artwork is one of the things that got me passionate about the card hobby, and it's possible to mix the two passions, even with commissioned sketches in card format that don't fit into a major-market card set. But if I commission an artwork it will be in a somewhat larger format, which I can frame it and put it on the wall where I can enjoy it more often. In that way, the 'difference in scale' makes a difference: I can enjoy cards in a different way than I enjoy art.

Card-size sketches can range from doodles to a lot of work. The ones that are found in card packs don't earn the artists much money, so the work is often for the love of it, or as a way to show off your work and get commissions that may even help feed the artist.

I'm not sure what the question is here. I'm a big collector of PSCs, but generally I do try and do sets with them (the exception would be my Bayonetta and Kahlan Amnell collections)...I currently have about 500 of them...you can see some of them here

http://www.allthingswhedon.com/sketchcards.htm

I have most of my sketch cards in a 3 inch binder although I will end up doing like Triple-Frog does, and will put most with the trading card set.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Chuck Bartowski,

All original art, be it on a canvas or a sketch card, is collectable. However no one, and I do mean no one, has any way to really price a sketch card except to say that its worth what a buyer will pay. If the definition of collectable means an established market, there is a market for sketch cards. If it means an established market value, that is a whole lot harder to come by.

Commissioned sketch cards are usually unique pieces that have a special meaning to the person who ordered it. I would imagine that they don't change hands that often. I certainly wouldn't want to sell the dozen or so sketch cards I had artists do for me. They are not part of any set, even if some characters may be in card products.

Artist proofs are a different story. They aren't pack inserted, but they are on official card stock. I can see where some collectors would consider them an extension of the set. Also they are complete when they are offered for sale by the artist, so its not a made to order sketch at all.

Artist proofs are easier to price since the established secondary market has at least set the bar for what most artists generally ask on their proofs or returns. But the value of commissioned sketch cards is highly subjective, even amoung creations from the same artist.

Take a look at the price guide for any listing with sketch cards and you will find broad ranges like $20 - $300. Right there you have the problem with sketch cards. They are collectable for sure, but where they fall on the sliding scale is anybody's guess.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Raven,

I just collect cards, not larger art. So getting art on a 2.5x3.5 piece of 'canvas' puts it into the collection.

I collect just one Marvel character. So many times one must commission art to fill that need. I have many artist's proofs in my collection, and you can indeed have them made to order as well. There are a LOT of scans in my signature, check out the Crystal Gallery.

So yes, they are collectible

But, was the question really "Are they Valuable?" And as seen above, assigning value to any piece of art, regardless of size is subjective and can only be measured one piece at a time in the marketplace. Big difference between collectible and valuable.

Ed

I don't see commissioning sketch cards to be part of a set, unless it's an AP from the set.

I believe I'm one of the earliest people to commission sketch cards. I say that because when I went to conventions and asked artists to use one of my blank cards, they acted very puzzled. I've collected all sizes of original art. I find them collectible, personal, original, and unique part of my collecting hobby. I'm always trying to find new ways to do that.

Here's my Tim Sale Star Wars fastball special. Tim has only done 2 other Star Wars pieces prior to this, and doubtful that he's done others.

quote:

Originally posted by Scifi Cards:
So yes, they are collectible

But, was the question really "Are they Valuable?" And as seen above, assigning value to any piece of art, regardless of size is subjective and can only be measured one piece at a time in the marketplace. Big difference between collectible and valuable.

Ed

Well the question asked is certainly open to interpretation Ed, but I don't think there's such a big difference between collectable and valuable to a lot of people. Sure you can call anything under the sun collectable, including rock gardens and matchbook covers, but most people want to collect something that has at least the potential for some appreciating value, especially if you are paying for it.

That's why I was commenting on the difficulty of pricing sketch cards, be they inserted in official products, artist proofs/returns or ordered commissions. They are all collectables. However I took the question to be "are they worth collecting?", specifically regarding commissioned art work. And to me, the only concrete measure of something so subjective would be how valuable its preceived in the marketplace.

I think some artists and some sellers are asking too much, yet, the collectors are paying. So you can't blame them.

I like meeting the artist and getting something below ebay prices, yet having the $ go into the artist hands (sorry dealer friends).

Here's some double size cards I got at a convention.


Although, as I posted recently, I collect sketches from packs, and occasionally buy off ebay (my wife bought this Beast), from dealers, and directly from artists, in addition to commissioning.

For me personally there are three kinds of sketch cards, and I find two of them to be "collectible"

1. The best and most desired kind: A sketch card from an artist who actually worked on the original project that inspired the card set itself. Some good examples are Marvel/DC sketch cards by artists who actually have drawn comics by those companies. Also, cards by animators from TV series like Family Guy, Simpsons, and Star Wars Clone Wars to name a few.

2. Good, but not as good as the ones above: Cards from artists who did not work on the original product that inspired the card set, but whom are nevertheless excellent artists who have rendered something on the card that is inarguably capital "A" Art. Some examples of these are cards by Sean Pence, Len Bellinger, Alison Sohn, Ted Dastick, and Cat Staggs, to name but a few.

3. The bottom rung: Cards by artists who had nothing to do with the project originally and then go on create unimaginative, repetitive cards that aren't even drawn very well. In my view, the large majority of sketch cards fall into this category, and "collectible" or no, as time goes on, they will hold less and less resale "value", you can count on that. When I find these kinds of cards in my boxes, I get rid of them as quickly as I can, and yes, it is a bit frustrating when such a card is the reason that a box of cards that would otherwise have cost $40 or so instead costs $70. Artists who fall into this category include that hack Y.D. Bother (see what I did there?).

On the other hand, it could well be that without the sketch cards pumping up the box prices, the necessarily reduced box price without them would then make the set unfeasible for the manufacturer to produce in the first place.

It is all very subjective of course, but even so, my feeling is that sets in which at least 75% of sketch cards that don't fall into the top two categories (with at least SOME percentage from category #1) should not have sketch cards in them. If it is too expensive for manufacturers to get a lot of high quality sketch cards for their sets, then sketches should not be used. If a set can only be issued with a large percentage of subpar sketches inserted in packs to make it profitable for the manufacturer, then sorry, the set should NOT be issued. Doing so does an immediate disservice to collectors which is ultimately visited back upon the manufacturer by consumers who refuse to buy future products from them, having been previously burned in the past.

Wonder why Star Wars Galaxy 6's print run was so low? It's because there were way too many junk sketches in the Star Wars Galaxy 5 set (and the Clone Wars sets from around the same time) and that severely limited pre-orders and thus the production run for the next project, Galaxy 6 in this example. Wonder why Indiana Jones Masterpieces had such a miniscule print run? It was because of the huge amount of lousy sketches found in the Crystal Skull and Indy Heritage sets that preceded it. (Not to pick on Topps as there have been awesome sketches in every set they have ever made with sketch cards in them, including the ones I mentioned. I'm just citing a couple examples of what can happen when work that should only be done by artists is handed out to hacks for the purposes of making a quick buck. Topps is big enough to get away with doing it once in a while.

I think the smaller, leaner manufacturers already know better than to pull such a stunt since they have less wiggle room on the bottom line. The result is that companies like Breygent and Cryptozoic (and even Upper Deck on certain sets lately) don't put sketches in every box and as a result of needing less sketches, they are able to maintain a higher standard for the ones they do put into packs. That should definitely be the model.

I just think that when manufacturers decide to put a sketch card in every single box, but with only limited funds with which to commission the artists for them, a kind of mediocrity is invited into the set. As those kinds of sets pile up, a great harm is ultimately done to the hobby, not the least of which is the lack of effort put into the base and "normal" chase sets all-too-commonly seen these days.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: chesspieceface,

quote:

Originally posted by chesspieceface:
For me personally there are three kinds of sketch cards, and I find two of them to be "collectible"

1. The best and most desired kind: A sketch card from an artist who actually worked on the original project that inspired the card set itself. Some good examples are Marvel/DC sketch cards by artists who actually have drawn comics by those companies. Also, cards by animators from TV series like Family Guy, Simpsons, and Star Wars Clone Wars to name a few.

I find it interesting that you hold comic artists in such high esteem when compared with other artists who work in the sketch card field. My view of comic book artists is quite similar to your take on a lot of sketch card artists. I used to collect comics but stopped because far too many comics were being drawn by hack artists who churned out very average or below average work for the majority of the titles I collected. One or two artists produced work that was special, the rest were poor to average. It became clear that, most artists were being employed because they could produce the right amount of artwork by the monthly deadline regardless of how good, bad or indifferent it was to look at. Basically, the hacks were kept on while the 'stars' were let go because they took too long.

The range of talent amongst the artists working on sketch cards is just as diverse as that of artists working on 'real' comics. It's rather unfair to dismiss the talents of sketch card artists while holding those of 'real comic' artists so high.

I didn't mean to say one kind of artist is better than another, and indeed, I don't think that way at all.

In the case of card sets that only exist because of comics, however, companies should attempt to hire established or at least up and coming comic book artists to draw the sketch cards, that's how I feel. On the pioneering (and greatest sketch sets of all-time) 1997 Fleer Ultra Spider-Man and 1998 Marvel Silver Age, that's how it was done. Those were the sets that kicked off the sketch craze. It is a shame to see how badly the standards they established have fallen.

At the same time, I wouldn't want hack comic artists drawing sketch cards either. For comic book derived sets, though, non-comics artists drawing them just feels arbitrary to me, but even with that in mind, it doesn't mean I don't like a lot of the sketch cards I've seen by those kinds of artists, the ones who are in fact drawing the vast majority of sketch cards. After all, working comic book artists are kind of busy drawing comics, so I'm sure they are not as available to draw cards (or inclined to work for the low per card rate) as I would like.

The main thing is that effort and imagination should be clearly seen on EVERY SINGLE pack inserted sketch card, something that is lacking in at least a few cards in virtually every single case break I've ever had myself and seen elsewhere. If increased quality of the art on the cards, means that sketch cards can't be one per box, then so be it. And if that further means the set can't be made because not enough boxes will be sold, then so be it. I'd rather a set not be made at all then to be filled with lousy sketch cards that only serve to double the box price and leave the consumer with a bad taste in their mouths. When I see one of these poorly executed cards, I think to myself, what if that's the only box a new collector purchased only to pull something like that? What quicker way is there to lose a potential new member of our hobby? Companies should be a lot more careful with who they hire to draw sketch cards. It's not exactly an exclusive club, and frankly, it should be.
But that's a personal opinion and I don't expect anyone to share it with me.

In the larger sense, I collected cards LONG before sketch cards existed and should they ever go out of vogue (doubtful) and cease being issued in card sets, I have a feeling I will still collect cards long after they are gone.

I don't know whether there are more sets being made today than there would be in the absence of the exitence of sketch cards, or less. No one does.
If sketch cards mean more sets are being made and that could be proven, I would be glad for them. If it means less sets are being made, I would rue them. Either way, if the quality of the base sets that are being produced is lacking since the manufacturer is using them merely as additional packaging around the sketch card to sell the boxes, and such a thing could be proven, then I would rue the day the very notion of sketch cards was conceived. Trading cards were fantastic fun for me before anyone had ever drew a sketch on one of them. Of course, how could any of my scenarios be proven in any direction? It is what it is.

But certainly, no offense was meant to you or any sketch artist working. I serve the hobby above all and encourage anyone to collect what they like, to not buy what they don't and for those with opinions on the matter to share them, or to remain silent as is your right. With that said, I thank you for yours (your opinion that is, not your silence!).

The previous posts by chesspieceface soon to be released in 5 leather bound volumes. Ask your dealer now!

haha, yes, and I must admit I'm not too good at twittering. 135 characters, it takes me that just to get warmed up!

I agree chesspieceface, that it wouldn't matter to me if sketch cards went away. I would still get sketches of all sizes for my collection.

On positive thing for me about sketches, is that I can pic up a set, if I choose not to buy a box, and/or complete chase sets much cheaper than back in the 90's.

Like you said, comic book artists are busy with the comic books. And most won't do the work at the low price companies are paying for sketch cards.

I've been lucky to get some "quick" sketch cards from some big names for free. And one on trade for a bottle of vodka, LOL.

Now, how do people feel about signature cards?

I keep the ones I pull, but would much rather meet the actor(s). And usually have something unique autographed.

Like my Stan Lee collection here.


Or my Star Trek bust collection.

Wonderful collection of autographed items! I have the autographed cards of Stan the Man from Marvel Silver Age and the Dynamic Red Sonja35th Anniversary sets.

That zombie stormtrooper behind the Riker bust is pretty cool, too. Thanks for sharing!

I love autographed cards, and without repeating everything I said above, they are to me, FAR more desirable than almost any sketch card since the signatures on them are pretty much always from people involved in the project the card set was created for. That's the important part.

Star Wars autographs and movie and TV show cast autograph cards are my favorites. And what's great about Topps Star Wars autographs is that while they are most welcome, the actual card set is never an afterthought. Many of the more sketch driven sets just can't boast the the same thing.

Ah, now, signature cards. What's the difference between a pack pulled auto and a base card (or an insert card if you like)that has been auto'd by the artist at a show. I have very few of the former but quite a number of the latter. Just the same, because it is not a "legit company made insert auto" I cannot bring myself to include a base card auto into my main collection. They skulk inside a ringbinder in a dark corner of my collection under the title "sowhatdoidowiththese"

......and another thing. How much angst have you all felt looking at some auto'd card and wondering if some spotty teen opportunist didn't do the siggy with one of his school felts in theprivacy of his bedroom? Worry, worry!!

quote:

Originally posted by btlfannz:
Ah, now, signature cards. What's the difference between a pack pulled auto and a base card (or an insert card if you like)that has been auto'd by the artist at a show.

Depends on how well you document your in-person autograph. You are referring to an artist, but its the same thing with any celebrity signature. The certified, pack pulled autograph card will always be valued higher than the in-person autograph. If you have no supporting evidence to authentic the in-person signing it will be way higher and you might not find a buyer who is even interested in touching it.

There's another reason besides authentication that makes pack pulled cards more valuable. They are part of a set and collectors are trying to complete that set, so even common signers are wanted. The same signers may mean nothing to buyers if it's on random base cards.

Finally it matters if that artist or celebrity doesn't have a certified autograph card or has an extremely limited one. How many Buffy fans are tempted to pick up one of those "I swear I got it myself" SMG autograph on some base card because there is no certified alternative? But if you really wanted say Leonard Nimoy, you would just save up and get one of his many ST autographs.

By the way, don't buy any SMG autographs, they are all 98.9% fakes, give or take a point.

quote:

Originally posted by Raven:

quote:

Originally posted by btlfannz:
Ah, now, signature cards. What's the difference between a pack pulled auto and a base card (or an insert card if you like)that has been auto'd by the artist at a show.

Depends on how well you document your in-person autograph. You are referring to an artist, but its the same thing with any celebrity signature. The certified, pack pulled autograph card will always be valued higher than the in-person autograph. If you have no supporting evidence to authentic the in-person signing it will be way higher and you might not find a buyer who is even interested in touching it.

There's another reason besides authentication that makes pack pulled cards more valuable. They are part of a set and collectors are trying to complete that set, so even common signers are wanted. The same signers may mean nothing to buyers if it's on random base cards.

Finally it matters if that artist or celebrity doesn't have a certified autograph card or has an extremely limited one. How many Buffy fans are tempted to pick up one of those "I swear I got it myself" SMG autograph on some base card because there is no certified alternative? But if you really wanted say Leonard Nimoy, you would just save up and get one of his many ST autographs.

By the way, don't buy any SMG autographs, they are all 98.9% fakes, give or take a point.

True about authenticity. I wish I would have got more prove. But I'm collecting for the fun of it, for my collection. Many signatures, I'm sure, could be proven by a specialist, and the fact I have the dates and locations I met the actors; if I was ever to sell. Probably won't get top dollar in most cases.

How's this for authenticating a signed bust?