Breaking the gold seal devalues the card by 25%

July 03, 2012, 10:32 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Raven:
quote:
Originally posted by HIM:
In the case of the Nimoy auto that you got through his Etsy store, if you had the connection at Rittenhouse to have one put in a toploader with their gold seal on it, you got ALOT more than people selling without.

Huh?

Are you talking about the autograph card sold with the Tee shirts via the Twitter notice? I don't think there was a seal, and if one was somehow put on, I don't see how that makes it worth any more. It was a special RA design that came signed directly from Nimoy and made a tidy profit on the secondary market.

If there's a story about shady seals, I'm game.

Here are 2 examples I found on worthpoint that are gold sealed:

http://www.worthpoint.com/wort...graph-card-152243417

http://www.worthpoint.com/wort...nimoy-llap-138971859

For what it's worth in one of the descriptions the seller states that "RA had a small supply signed for themselves and comes sealed with their official RA gold seal."

I had a Twilight Zone Elizabeth Allen that I bought from a very reputable dealer at the Philly Show last year. It had the gold seal intact, but what made it strange was that it was also in a penny sleeve first, which I was very happy about (for card protection purposes). I know however that RA didn't start putting the incentives in penny sleeves until the last few years, long after the Elizabeth Allen card was initially issued. It just makes me wonder if certain mega dealers are able to buy single cards from RA, which is why the cards can be found sealed when there not supposed to be or sealed with penny sleeves when they're not supposed have the sleeve. I also recall seeing a few Star Trek TOS Romulan Shatner autographs also that were sealed when there was no reason for them to be. Here's an example of one of those:

http://www.worthpoint.com/wort...am-shatner-161499159

July 04, 2012, 01:29 PM

Booker

I'm probably in the minority here, but I believe breaking the seal devalues the card by more than 25%. With all the fakes out there, I would not feel comfortable buying such an expensive card w/o the seal. If it was a card I absolutely needed, I would MAYBE offer 50% of market price. Perhaps slightly more (55-60%) if I believe the seller opened the seal himself.

July 04, 2012, 04:01 PM

simpsonscardman

quote:
Originally posted by Logan:
quote:
Originally posted by Raven:
quote:
Originally posted by HIM:
In the case of the Nimoy auto that you got through his Etsy store, if you had the connection at Rittenhouse to have one put in a toploader with their gold seal on it, you got ALOT more than people selling without.

Huh?

Are you talking about the autograph card sold with the Tee shirts via the Twitter notice? I don't think there was a seal, and if one was somehow put on, I don't see how that makes it worth any more. It was a special RA design that came signed directly from Nimoy and made a tidy profit on the secondary market.

If there's a story about shady seals, I'm game.

Here are 2 examples I found on worthpoint that are gold sealed:

http://www.worthpoint.com/wort...graph-card-152243417

http://www.worthpoint.com/wort...nimoy-llap-138971859

For what it's worth in one of the descriptions the seller states that "RA had a small supply signed for themselves and comes sealed with their official RA gold seal."

I had a Twilight Zone Elizabeth Allen that I bought from a very reputable dealer at the Philly Show last year. It had the gold seal intact, but what made it strange was that it was also in a penny sleeve first, which I was very happy about (for card protection purposes). I know however that RA didn't start putting the incentives in penny sleeves until the last few years, long after the Elizabeth Allen card was initially issued. It just makes me wonder if certain mega dealers are able to buy single cards from RA, which is why the cards can be found sealed when there not supposed to be or sealed with penny sleeves when they're not supposed have the sleeve. I also recall seeing a few Star Trek TOS Romulan Shatner autographs also that were sealed when there was no reason for them to be. Here's an example of one of those:

http://www.worthpoint.com/wort...am-shatner-161499159

Makes me wonder if there's away of getting the sticker off or re-apply the sticker to a differernt card??its interesting how come collectors will just purchase the a stickered card without checking it out 1st??

But if its in a gold seal??it must be real???that's a sure fire way for fakers to make a few easy £ or $??

July 05, 2012, 08:51 AM

Booker

quote:
Originally posted by simpsonscardman:
Makes me wonder if there's away of getting the sticker off or re-apply the sticker to a differernt card??its interesting how come collectors will just purchase the a stickered card without checking it out 1st??

But if its in a gold seal??it must be real???that's a sure fire way for fakers to
make a few easy £ or $??

Yikes! I hope not. I'm already paranoid about fakes as it is...

July 05, 2012, 11:31 AM

simpsonscardman

quote:
Originally posted by Booker:
quote:
Originally posted by simpsonscardman:
Makes me wonder if there's away of getting the sticker off or re-apply the sticker to a differernt card??its interesting how come collectors will just purchase the a stickered card without checking it out 1st??

But if its in a gold seal??it must be real???that's a sure fire way for fakers to
make a few easy £ or $??

Yikes! I hope not. I'm already paranoid about fakes as it is...

Some single case stoppers with a gold seal can be picked up for buttons these days
So I'm not surprised there is a problem.

In the last few months on ebay I've seen pack inserted cards in toploaders with the rittenhouse gold seal.older cards that were never penny sleeved in a penny sleeve then put into a rittenhouse gold-stickered top loader and even a topps Star Wars sketch card in a Rittenhouse gold stickered top loader!!

So something is not right??but don't expect the truth cause the people who run this industry are more than happy to let stuff go thru the back door??no wonder people are losing faith!!

July 05, 2012, 10:40 PM

Raven

Well this is pretty interesting because I didn't realize that there was a problem with gold seals showing up on cards in top loaders that were not distributed that way.

I think its one more thing that collectors are going to have to watch. That gold seal, be it from RA or Razor or whoever else may have used them, is not really the same as a watermark or non-counterfeiting device. How easy are they to copy and would we really know if one did not match the others without close comparison?

Probably pretty easy to make a seal or get a hold of something that is gold and would pass at a quick glance. So I guess the lesson is that no one should automatically think a card with a seal is any more authentic than any other card that you have to inspect before buying.

July 06, 2012, 12:39 AM

Scifi Cards

quote:
Originally posted by simpsonscardman:
and even a topps Star Wars sketch card in a Rittenhouse gold stickered top loader!!

I think this one has reached the level of Urban Legend.

I know some time back, there was a Star Wars sketch pictured in a Rittenhouse 'sealed' topload.

Turns out after talking with the seller, he had slit the seal on another card for his collection and just put the Star Wars card in there because he re-uses toploads.

Now, I'm not saying some Rittenhouse cards aren't showing up sealed that did not come that way. But, I don't think the Topps card in a sealed Rittenhouse topload has ever been documented as real.

Ed

July 06, 2012, 07:31 AM

simpsonscardman

quote:
Originally posted by Raven:

So I guess the lesson is that no one should automatically think a card with a seal is any more authentic than any other card that you have to inspect before buying.

Couldn't of said it better myself!!

July 06, 2012, 08:35 AM

HIM

quote:
Originally posted by simpsonscardman:
quote:
Originally posted by Logan:
quote:
Originally posted by Raven:
quote:
Originally posted by HIM:
In the case of the Nimoy auto that you got through his Etsy store, if you had the connection at Rittenhouse to have one put in a toploader with their gold seal on it, you got ALOT more than people selling without.

Huh?

Are you talking about the autograph card sold with the Tee shirts via the Twitter notice? I don't think there was a seal, and if one was somehow put on, I don't see how that makes it worth any more. It was a special RA design that came signed directly from Nimoy and made a tidy profit on the secondary market.

If there's a story about shady seals, I'm game.

Here are 2 examples I found on worthpoint that are gold sealed:

http://www.worthpoint.com/wort...graph-card-152243417

http://www.worthpoint.com/wort...nimoy-llap-138971859

For what it's worth in one of the descriptions the seller states that "RA had a small supply signed for themselves and comes sealed with their official RA gold seal."

I had a Twilight Zone Elizabeth Allen that I bought from a very reputable dealer at the Philly Show last year. It had the gold seal intact, but what made it strange was that it was also in a penny sleeve first, which I was very happy about (for card protection purposes). I know however that RA didn't start putting the incentives in penny sleeves until the last few years, long after the Elizabeth Allen card was initially issued. It just makes me wonder if certain mega dealers are able to buy single cards from RA, which is why the cards can be found sealed when there not supposed to be or sealed with penny sleeves when they're not supposed have the sleeve. I also recall seeing a few Star Trek TOS Romulan Shatner autographs also that were sealed when there was no reason for them to be. Here's an example of one of those:

http://www.worthpoint.com/wort...am-shatner-161499159

Makes me wonder if there's away of getting the sticker off or re-apply the sticker to a differernt card??its interesting how come collectors will just purchase the a stickered card without checking it out 1st??

But if its in a gold seal??it must be real???that's a sure fire way for fakers to make a few easy £ or $??

One of them was sold by someone with direct ties to RA.

July 06, 2012, 09:41 AM

simpsonscardman

One of them was sold by someone with direct ties to RA.[/QUOTE]

Its all a bit shady!!

July 07, 2012, 04:04 PM

Alric

Even RA have said that the seal were not designed for perminate storage so I do not see why then either being in or out of the sleve should effect the value, it's the cards that people should be valuing not the top loader it's in or the small sticker that's used to close it.

July 07, 2012, 04:51 PM

wolfie

If nobody ever pays more for a sealed one than they do for an unsealed one then the problem no longer exists.

People can charge and say what they like but it's the buyers that set the prices.

July 07, 2012, 05:56 PM

Logan

I think Rittenhouse created a monster with the gold seal for incentives. I believe they stated that it was just to keep the card from falling out of the top loader in transit but it's become much bigger -- almost as important as the card itself to some collectors. Sellers on eBay even mention damage to the sticker. Apparently some collectors need the sticker to be mint just like the card. I'm guilty too as I know deep down that the card itself is all that's supposed to matter but I would never buy an incentive card that wasn't sealed and would never dream of removing one once I have it. It's gotten to the point where if Razor released a particular Inkworks card that I want I will only buy it Razor sealed. Just something cool about it being uncirculated I guess. Or maybe it's my card collecting OCD creeping in again.

July 07, 2012, 09:55 PM

Booker

quote:
Originally posted by wolfie:
If nobody ever pays more for a sealed one than they do for an unsealed one then the problem no longer exists.

I'm actually not paying more for a sealed auto, I'm paying LESS for the unsealed one. Unsealed autos are no longer considered new/mint/uncirculated, and with all the fakes out there, the authenticity will always be questioned.

For example, would you be comfortable paying full price for a "new but open box" dvd player? Or how about an Iphone without the factory sticker on the screen? Or a video game without the shrink wrap? These items, although new, are not factory sealed & therefore worth less than its counterparts.

July 07, 2012, 10:38 PM

DeathStorm

quote:
Originally posted by Booker:
I'm actually not paying more for a sealed auto, I'm paying LESS for the unsealed one. Unsealed autos are no longer considered new/mint/uncirculated, and with all the fakes out there, the authenticity will always be questioned.

I agree with your first point but it seems a little foolish to assume that a bit of sticky foil guarantees anything, it's not that hard to peel off the stickers and reapply them and I assume it would be utterly trivial to duplicate them.

quote:
Originally posted by Booker:
For example, would you be comfortable paying full price for a "new but open box" dvd player? Or how about an Iphone without the factory sticker on the screen? Or a video game without the shrink wrap? These items, although new, are not factory sealed & therefore worth less than its counterparts.

Not really a fair comparison, electronics eventually break down so if it's used or not is important to consider but a piece of cardboard tends not to have any moving parts that can break!

The seal in truth only matters if the collector believes it matters, the card inside won't be any different and I personally wouldn't be comfortable with a valuable card left in one over a long period of time without a penny sleeve as a lot of the older sets are.

July 08, 2012, 01:08 AM

Booker

quote:
Originally posted by DeathStorm:

Not really a fair comparison, electronics eventually break down so if it's used or not is important to consider but a piece of cardboard tends not to have any moving parts that can break!

I think its a valid comparison. So assuming that everything is new, exactly the same, & in complete functional order, would you buy a product w/o the factory packaging for FULL retail/market price? It can be electronics, food, furniture, tires, clothing, etc. Despite being brand spanking new, I don't think anyone would buy it w/o some sort of discount. Hence this is why I refuse to pay full price for unsealed autos. It's the exact same concept.

July 08, 2012, 07:16 AM

simpsonscardman

I think given time this little problem will sort itself out??

Once older cards start degrading within stickered toploaders!!

July 08, 2012, 09:39 AM

Triple-Frog

I always break the seal and put the card into a more archival safe penny sleeve and holder.

While I accept that there are fakes out there the gold seal is absolutely no guarantee of authenticity.Anyone smart enough to fake a card to a reasonable standard would find faking the gold seal childs play.

July 08, 2012, 01:33 PM

simpsonscardman

quote:
Originally posted by Triple-Frog:
I always break the seal and put the card into a more archival safe penny sleeve and holder.

While I accept that there are fakes out there the gold seal is absolutely no guarantee of authenticity.Anyone smart enough to fake a card to a reasonable standard would find faking the gold seal childs play.

The cards are not safe in these toploaders,so collectors are taking a big risk by leaving them in there!its going to be very interesting to see where all this goes in the next 5-10 years!!

July 08, 2012, 03:06 PM

Booker

quote:
Originally posted by simpsonscardman:
quote:
Originally posted by Triple-Frog:
I always break the seal and put the card into a more archival safe penny sleeve and holder.

While I accept that there are fakes out there the gold seal is absolutely no guarantee of authenticity.Anyone smart enough to fake a card to a reasonable standard would find faking the gold seal childs play.

The cards are not safe in these toploaders,so collectors are taking a big risk by leaving them in there!its going to be very interesting to see where all this goes in the next 5-10 years!!

I understand the need to protect the cards over the long term. However, the original topic at hand is that breaking the seal decreases the card's value. How much it decreases will vary from collector to collector. But it's undeniable the value goes down. This is true not just for cards but for almost all consumer products. Nobody likes paying full price for something that's been opened, archival safe or not.