I have seen a lot of complaints recently about not getting the expected number of premium inserts in a box. I, along with probably 99% of collectors have no idea about the mechanics of inserting these cards into the packets and boxes.

I was hoping some of the manufacturers might be willing to tell us how they do this and whether methods differ between them.

Understanding the process for me at least might make it a bit more bearable when I am shorted a card when opening a box.

Expected and Guarenteed are often mistaken for the same thing. The old chestnut of "Over the entire print run" is an iron-clad get-out-of-jail phrase which is probably legally binding.

simple it is done by humans and machines and mistakes happen

Tom

ps: I never see people complain about getting extra or posting that they did.Normally if 1 box is short another one has extra.

While I have been fortunate enough to never receive the "expected" number of hits in a sealed box, I can understand how frustrating that can be. I can only imagine the disappointment to a new collector who buys a box and gets one of the "mistakes." That could very well be the last that collector does with our hobby.

Tom, you point out an interesting thought. If people did realize that any box that has "extra" hits in it means that someone else got shorted, they might feel differently about it. I think no one complains if you get more than you expected, but simple math tells us that we should look at the overall distribution, not just ourselves. Should we all just send back the extras that we get so that no one gets cheated?

I think there was a video posted some where of the automatic packing machine running at either Topps or Panini -- it was really remarkable.

mistakes do happen and if a person emails me (speaking only about my company) I have always taken care of any problem.A lot of people email and threaten never to buy your product and how could this happen. Well we are humans and things happen.I remember inkworks use to keep a list of people who said they were short something from their box or case. You would be surprised how unlucky some people are (they are always short).

Good point Tom. My experience has always been positive when I have had a problem with any manufacturer so a little honest communication always goes a long way people need to relax a little and be reasonable.

I have been shorted a premium hit maybe 3 or 4 times over the last dozen or so years, I don't keep a list. I think I went back to Topps once on an Indiana Jones product and got a replacement sketch. The rest I let slide.

Why? Well I have a few reasons.

1. I am basically very lazy and I hate to make the effort.

2. I know I will get mad if I make the effort and get told that the box odds are the ratio over the entire run and does not mean a guaranteed number in any individual box. So sorry, but no replacement.

3. I know I will get even madder if I make the effort and get told not only the above disclaimer, but it also sounds like they don't really believe I got shorted. So sorry, but no replacement.

4. And finally, should I get lucky enough to be believed and have good customer service, I am pretty sure that the replacement I will be sent is going to be of the $7 no-name variety, while the one that was supposed to be in the box would have been, I am convinced, the rarest autograph card in the set.

So I just treat shorts as bad luck and human error because it really doesn't happen that often.

But if a card manufacturer gets a reputation for poor quality control in the packing stage, and it's a deserved complaint because many buyers are reporting missing hits and packs that don't have the right number of cards, well then they have a big problem.

quote:

Originally posted by Breygent Marketing:
I remember inkworks use to keep a list of people who said they were short something from their box or case. You would be surprised how unlucky some people are (they are always short).

And this is the trouble. . . I personally rarely would bring up the issue of a missing hit -- I'd chalk it up to bad luck generally. . . that said I've heard conversations on a number of occasions of people gaming the system to either get questionably missing hits, or -- more common -- replacement of damaged cards that shouldn't have been replaced.

I don't buy a ton of product, but I have been shorted a decent amount of time (IMHO!) -- I have missed autographs in Rittenhouse boxes maybe 4 times (the only one I can remember off of the top of my head was one of the Star Trek 40th Anniversary sets), pulled a smudged autograph once (Simon Pegg from a box of Star Trek 09), missed a base card in a Stargate SGU premium pack and once got my rewards redemption package without the reward (it just had a Star Trek promo, no Quotable Game of Thrones card). Inkworks was short 2 or 3 times (I remember one of them being a box of Charmed, and the replacement happened to be the only card I owned -- one I picked up on eBay), and I purchased 2 dud boxes of a Harry Potter product from Artbox. I also pulled a smudged autograph from a box of Doctor Who cards from Strictly Ink, and once bought a preview pack of American Horror Story and was missing one of the base cards (which Tom replaced really quickly). I once got a damaged Walking Dead promo from NSU (and sent Harris a pic to prove it) and when Leonard Nimoy had his exclusive autograph card, I somehow got one that was not even signed (and then I sent him a proof pic, too).

On the other hand, I have gotten extra exactly once -- a box of Game of Thrones season 2 that had three autographs in one box.

Whenever I am shorted, I feel bad emailing because I don't want to be seen as someone trying to get away with something, but I also appreciate that most manufacturers will make sure you get the stated odds (Artbox was the only one who did not send me something, which is fine). That said, I also feel like I have terrible luck and I do wonder if there is a file at Rittenhouse headquarters where they say 'this guy again? How many boxes can he buy that are missing something?' It's a fine line, I guess, but I think it's usually understood in card collecting: if it says 1:24 and I buy a 24 pack box, there should be one of those in my box. If not, I should let the company know. It's up to them to believe me or not, but if they have not believed me, they never let on

Uncle Allan also told me they kept a database of those that claimed shortages.

I also remember him saying they generally never said no. But someone that seems to have problems with every release might not get exactly random cards in return.

I also remember him telling me a story about a rash of people missing case toppers. Turns out they were all from the same dealer. He was opening the bottom of the case and removing case toppers. Nobody had noticed the bottom had been resealed because we never look at the bottom of the box.

The Panini video is here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-LxhldAIAc

Very interesting. Worth 10 minutes of your life.

Ed

Mistakes happen. I've had boxes come up short from every manufacturer. Topps, Inkworks, RA, Breygent, Crypto. A polite note, usually an email, asking about it and usually a solution is pretty quick to happen! Some asked for the box/wrappers to be sent in, others just magically appeared lol.

to be fair i have had packs stuffed with autos. Seems they can stick together in the hopper.

quote:

Originally posted by richnet:
to be fair i have had packs stuffed with autos. Seems they can stick together in the hopper.

I find that hard to believe, unless it was one of those premium pack products that have nothing but autographs in them, or UK card manufacturers are shorting customers a lot worse than over here. There are always only so many hits made for a product and if some stick together and go out together, then there is at least an equal number or more of packs that will not have the expected number of hits or maybe none at all.

That video is very interesting on packing the common cards but I could not see where they were inserting any premium cards such as relics or autographs.

What I was really curious to know was if this was done by machines or humans and how duplication of relics/autos/sketches by the same artist within the same box/case was avoided.

I started this thread because I am genuinely interested about the process and how different companies handle the process.

it was back 2000-2004 ish when i used to buy cases of usa product. i think they have tightened up since then

although you can still get crazy sorting in the ccg side ie magic etc

quote:

Originally posted by Triple-Frog:
That video is very interesting on packing the common cards but I could not see where they were inserting any premium cards such as relics or autographs.

I believe the hoppers at around 4:10 are inserts randomly being added to the stacks. . .

quote:

Originally posted by Triple-Frog:
What I was really curious to know was if this was done by machines or humans and how duplication of relics/autos/sketches by the same artist within the same box/case was avoided.

It depends on the company and it depends on the set and on the insert.

quote:

Originally posted by Raven:

quote:

Originally posted by richnet:
to be fair i have had packs stuffed with autos. Seems they can stick together in the hopper.

I find that hard to believe, unless it was one of those premium pack products that have nothing but autographs in them, or UK card manufacturers are shorting customers a lot worse than over here. There are always only so many hits made for a product and if some stick together and go out together, then there is at least an equal number or more of packs that will not have the expected number of hits or maybe none at all.

One of my customers got some boxes (don't remember how many) where every pack had an autograph, instead of just the one box. SOmething clearly went kerflooey with that

quote:

Originally posted by STCardGeek:

One of my customers got some boxes (don't remember how many) where every pack had an autograph, instead of just the one box. SOmething clearly went kerflooey with that

Might they have been hot boxes? I have heard rumors of such things, but not unlike the unicorn, I don't know if they ever really existed.