quote:

Originally posted by Raven:
What Kevins said.

But also because the supply is unlimited, whatever is selling will be reprinted, and a producer of unlicensed cards can undercut any legitimate card manufacturer who has to pay a chunk of money just to get the approval of the copyright holder before he can even make cards.

Most unlicensed cards are cheaply made, but some are very well done. To me the real danger is not what someone may pay, do what you want it's your money, but it contributes to a product that will destroy every legitimate card manufacturer who follows the law and pays for his licenses. It is a fundamental cornerstone of the hobby, an unlicensed card is a counterfeit card. Counterfeit cards have no value.

Well said Raven! Hopefully someone from the studios, a card manufacturer, or a collector contacts ebay. It litters their pages. All of us on here are smart enough to stay away but its the casual fan and collector getting burned on the receiving end and as mentioned by Raven the card manufacturers on the production end.

quote:

Originally posted by Kevins:

quote:

Originally posted by wolfie:
if people are buying these cards for cash how are they worthless?

It's the same thing as buying a knock off handbag or shoes. Everything has a value and people can pay what they want but in the end you still have worthless illegal fake merchandise and in this case not recognized in the marketplace. I feel sure Harris will not be adding these to the price guide.

I don't think the analogy is that accurate to be honest. Counterfeit clothes/luxury goods are based upon genuine articles that do exist. These promos are not based upon any pre-existing cards and so they may have a certain appeal to those who collect for visual appeal rather than 'bragging rights'.

Also, similarly to what wolfie said, if someone is prepared to pay for something, then by definition it cannot be worthless. If that were not true than the counterfeit industry in clothes/jewelley etc. would not be worth billions.

quote:

Originally posted by Kevins:

quote:

Originally posted by Raven:
What Kevins said.

But also because the supply is unlimited, whatever is selling will be reprinted, and a producer of unlicensed cards can undercut any legitimate card manufacturer who has to pay a chunk of money just to get the approval of the copyright holder before he can even make cards.

Most unlicensed cards are cheaply made, but some are very well done. To me the real danger is not what someone may pay, do what you want it's your money, but it contributes to a product that will destroy every legitimate card manufacturer who follows the law and pays for his licenses. It is a fundamental cornerstone of the hobby, an unlicensed card is a counterfeit card. Counterfeit cards have no value.

Well said Raven! Hopefully someone from the studios, a card manufacturer, or a collector contacts ebay. It litters their pages. All of us on here are smart enough to stay away but its the casual fan and collector getting burned on the receiving end and as mentioned by Raven the card manufacturers on the production end.

Assuming these promos are bootleg, I don't see how they "undercut legitimate card manufacturers" if either no manufacturer is producing cards for a topic, or the cards they are producing are completely different and on a far more minimal scale.
If you want some trading cards for Batman v Superman, well tough luck. There are none, except these promos. If you bought some of the Walking Dead promos from this vendor, they are nothing like what Cryptozoic put out. So I would think those who collect Walking Dead Crypto cards would focus on the Cryto stuff regardless and see promos from this vendor as optional extras.

I really don't want to sound blasé, and wish I knew the full story on these cards, but a few promos, official or not, will not put the big names in the industry out of business. Not when the latter are giving us base sets, cool chase cards and printing technologies, certified autographs, show-worn props and costumes, sketch cards etc. etc. There is no comparison to my mind.

I would not call myself a casual collector but I have taken a punt on these cards. So as wolfie said, there must be some value there. Controversial or not, I'm happy with these X-Files cards, whatever they may be. Although I do feel spurred on to do some more digging. The truth is still out there!

X, I always respect your opinion. It is not up to collectors to get sellers off of various sites because of copyright infringement, that is the problem of the license holders and if they don't want to protect their investments so be it.

What is important is that people know what they are buying. At best, an unlicensed card is a novelty item only and it will never have a value. There is no getting around that, it is a rock solid principle of the hobby.

Whether the title has been made or not, money diverted to such cards is money not going to card manufacturers who have to pay dearly for licenses. If someone holds the title, it is twice as bad because they have to charge way more for their licensed cards to make a profit than the guy who only needs a color printer and good card stock.

Now I have been very careful not to call these X-Files Promos anything. It is not up to me to judge an item from a listing only and I didn't know what might have been handed out at NYCC. I still don't, I only know if I would buy them or not.

I will say that in searching these listings for various titles, including some Star Wars "Promos" as well as these X-File promos, there is a little note in the seller's description that adds "including home made items". I would think that is a pretty good indication that he is trying to say something.

It's alright with me if people choose not to care, but you can't change the rules on a case by case basis.

How is this any different from an artist who does a painted card or a sketch card of Star Wars or a Marvel character, and sells them for $10, but does not release them thru Topps or Upper Deck, which have the licenses ? You see these all of the time at shows, on ebay, etc

quote:

Originally posted by Tommy C:
How is this any different from an artist who does a painted card or a sketch card of Star Wars or a Marvel character, and sells them for $10, but does not release them thru Topps or Upper Deck, which have the licenses ? You see these all of the time at shows, on ebay, etc

Not sure if people are rushing to purchase those either. But they are art and being sold as such even if they are in a grey area. These other cards are being sold as legitimate fully licensed promo cards. Just look at all the "copyright" info on the back. Is that not a blatant attempt to pass them off as authentic cards issued by a manufacturer or a studio? At least Broders never attempted to put MLB Logos On their cards.

I won't mention names, but there is one fellow discussed under the General Card Section here on Card Talk, who has a (so far) 30 card set that he's been releasing, a few cards at a time, at San Diego these past few years. He sells these cards, doesn't give them away. They are painted pics of Marvel, DC Comics, and Star Wars characters

I am not a lawyer, so I don't understand the legality of this. If I create my own cards, but don't use any comic book artwork or photos from a TV show/film, can I, for example, do my own card set of Batman or Superman, if I just paint or draw it myself ? I am not sure

The problem is not when you are creating something for yourself or a few friends, it's when you mass produce and put up for sale copyrighted material without getting the permission of the license holder. You have to pay if someone owns rights to whatever you are distributing.

Art is a different issue and there are more gray areas, but if you ask any experienced artist they pretty much know what they can get away with. If someone wants to commission a sketch of Thor and Mickey Mouse, an artist will probably do it. But if that same artist wants to do 1000 sketches of Thor and Mickey Mouse and put them up for sale on an auction site, don't be surprised if Marvel and Disney have something to say about it.

It is a matter of degree as far as attracting attention. It doesn't change the nature of unlicensed material, either it is or it isn't, but if you're making a business out of it that goes to a different level. If you are misrepresenting what you are selling to trick people into thinking it is licensed material when it is not, then that is a whole other issue.

Raven - I completely agree that it is extremely important that people know what they are buying. More clarity in the listings is essential otherwise it can look like subterfuge and not everyone is happy to just take a chance on what could just be a 'novelty'.

I would still (politely!) disagree on the point that they have no value though. Maybe no value as an 'investment'. Maybe no value to certain collectors. But looking at how many of these the seller is selling, there clearly is some value there. The old "something is worth what someone is willing to pay for it".

I suppose expenditure on these questionable cards could be money otherwise spent of cards we know are official, but needing to by a new washing machine can take away from the card fund too! So I'm not totally sold on that argument. I've bought some of these X-Files promos, but that won't stop me buying the new Bond set etc.

It would annoy me though if I were a card licence holder and there were bootleg cards being made of the same property. If however there are no cards being made for a property, bootlegs that are selling show that somewhere a manufacturer/studio is clearly missing a trick not making them!

X, we never disagree, at worst we debate.

If other card collectors get some entertainment and knowledge out of it, that is all good to the purpose of these forums.

I do understand your position and although I will not concede that unlicensed cards are not worthless by hobby standards, I will certainly agree that there is a market for them.

It hurts the hobby when unlicensed cards are done like this it takes advantage of uninformed collectors and undermines legitimate manufacturers who pay money per contract to make such cards. A shame people support this type of thing I think that is narrow minded.

quote:

Originally posted by X:
Raven - I completely agree that it is extremely important that people know what they are buying. More clarity in the listings is essential otherwise it can look like subterfuge and not everyone is happy to just take a chance on what could just be a 'novelty'.

I would still (politely!) disagree on the point that they have no value though. Maybe no value as an 'investment'. Maybe no value to certain collectors. But looking at how many of these the seller is selling, there clearly is some value there. The old "something is worth what someone is willing to pay for it".

I suppose expenditure on these questionable cards could be money otherwise spent of cards we know are official, but needing to by a new washing machine can take away from the card fund too! So I'm not totally sold on that argument. I've bought some of these X-Files promos, but that won't stop me buying the new Bond set etc.

It would annoy me though if I were a card licence holder and there were bootleg cards being made of the same property. If however there are no cards being made for a property, bootlegs that are selling show that somewhere a manufacturer/studio is clearly missing a trick not making them!

I am sure our friend Tom from Breygent is thrilled with the American Horror Story promo from "NYCC" In fact it appears that there were quite a few different shows and movies given out at the event and as sharp as we are we missed them all. Star Wars and Walking Dead are just a few of the cards offered. Topps and Cryptozoic have to be happy about this. If people continue to support it when does it end? You know they will be ready to roll with SDCC in July. With much better pricing than Topps and Breygent. Trust me, if they are not stopped it will effect manufacturers and dealers bottom lines. There are not enough collectors out there for this to fall between the cracks. Sorry for the rant but fake cards have always been a pet peeve and I am proud to say I have none in my collection. One more thing, anyone notice every item is half price? Always! Quite then marketing ploy!

Regarding Star Wars, there have been hundreds of cards not by Topps produced over the past 20 years that people collect, like all of those Cosplay cards that show people dressed up, plus a bunch of other FAN made cards that you see at all of the major shows (SDCC, etc)

There have also been prior Walking Dead cards, not by Crypto or this ebay seller, sold by artists at shows just within the past few years

quote:

Originally posted by Tommy C:
Regarding Star Wars, there have been hundreds of cards not by Topps produced over the past 20 years that people collect, like all of those Cosplay cards that show people dressed up, plus a bunch of other FAN made cards that you see at all of the major shows (SDCC, etc)

There have also been prior Walking Dead cards, not by Crypto or this ebay seller, sold by artists at shows just within the past few years

Hi Tommy, that is correct. The artist cards are in that grey area we talked about. The fan cards such as 501st are actually done with permission and not intended for sale even though I do see them offered all the time. Those are depicting fans dressed as favorites from the films. The issue I have is with someone blatantly lying and producing illegal cards with scenes from the films or TV shows, passing them off as licensed and legal product produced with permission and having the nerve to say they are promotional items that were given away at an event.

I am not going to repeat all the reasons why people should stay away from unlicensed cards, I think we've covered it pretty well. But here's what you have to watch for now, because this is a thread that started talking about a particular "promo" card and it is in the promo section of Card Talk.

It seems that there is enough demand and money in certain entertainment titles that unlicensed cards are appearing with the tag line of a "promo". That was something that happened with sports cards when they were big and the promo craze was in full force. It was done because it confused novice collectors into thinking that it didn't matter that they never heard of these cards and they don't know where they came from, something was coming out. Well the only thing that comes out is your money.

And yes, with SDCC coming up, there may be a slew of sellers with "promos" from the Con. So know what you are buying.

I am pretty sure that the seller is the person who was selling those dozens (if not hundreds) of different homemade Twilight movie related sets a few back. A little digging revealed this info

quote:

Originally posted by Kevins:

quote:

Originally posted by wolfie:
if people are buying these cards for cash how are they worthless?

It's the same thing as buying a knock off handbag or shoes. Everything has a value and people can pay what they want but in the end you still have worthless illegal fake merchandise and in this case not recognized in the marketplace. I feel sure Harris will not be adding these to the price guide.

I see what both of you mean. I'm however reminded of the existence of sticker machines back in the 90s. Actually, these were discussed some time ago on this website. They all seem to be bootleg products, rather than licensed official stickers.
Yet, when I went to look for auctions of these, prices were much higher than expected. Official nature of product doesn't necessarily reflect upon its collectable value.
One of the action figures I own is a Blade Runner bootleg figure. It was produced in limited quantities and then sold to a worldwide market. This figure of detective Deckard also tends to fetch quite a sum in the secondary market.

quote:

Originally posted by monkeyafterdark:
Official nature of product doesn't necessarily reflect upon its collectable value.

One of the action figures I own is a Blade Runner bootleg figure. It was produced in limited quantities and then sold to a worldwide market. This figure of detective Deckard also tends to fetch quite a sum in the secondary market.

This is actually a wonderful subject for a reasoned debate because there is much truth on both sides of the argument. A lot of it has already been said here, but I do want to go to your point that sometimes a bootleg or unlicensed product is worth buying. Well I think that depends on whether or not you know its true nature and whether or not the item actually is made well enough for you to want it even though you know its true nature.

Here are the undisputable facts:
- An unlicensed product is counterfeit and will never appear in any guide.
- It may have a secondary market value because people may be willing to buy it, but that is not the same thing as saying it has a collectable value.
- It has no collectable value because it will never officially appreciate in value. It is counterfeit.
- The vast majority of unlicensed items, especially cards, are cheaply made and more can be cranked out whenever they sell.
- Many of these items are misrepresented to appear as though they may be licensed and are designed to confuse novice collectors. This is a blatant rip off because it is also fraud.
- By buying these types of counterfeit items you are contributing to keeping these sellers in business and making sure that black market merchandise is profitable.
- By buying these types of counterfeit items you are hurting every legit manufacturer who has to pay good money for a license.
- Unlicensed merchandised intermingled with your collection taints your collection.

Now those are gospel statements to me. I'm sorry if it does not sound good to the collectors who see nothing wrong in buying unlicensed cards. It's just the truth.

Now here are the exceptions, which to varying degrees also have merits:
- There is a good argument that things that are custom made, but unlicensed, are in fact worth collecting. By custom made I mean one of a kind pieces, not mass produced unlicensed cards. I would agree with that.
- There is a argument that a title that has not been made is fair game. This is questionable to me because you never know when that title might be made. At best these might be called novelties.
- There is an argument that sometimes an unlicensed item is made so well that it deserves to be collected. This is a rarer one, but true. There are certain items that I have seen that do look very good and do attract collectors of that particular subject.
- There is an argument that as long as the seller is not trying to fool me, I can buy what I want. I agree, it's your money. If you want to taint your collection go right ahead.
- There is an argument that as long as I know what I'm buying it doesn't hurt anybody. I disagree here. It hurts card manufacturers and license holders and dealers and will drive legal businesses out of business if allowed to go on without consequence. And there goes the hobby folks.

If anybody can think of anymore arguments, go right ahead.

Have I ever bought unlicensed product myself? Yes.

I own three handmade resin and plastic models of a particular character that I like. I have some commissioned sketches of characters and people.

As far as cards go, I have only two. I threw out the few Broders that I had picked up in my earlier days of sports card collecting long ago, but I kept two Jeter patch cards that were clearly hand made, but were done well enough for me to consider them unique, though still worthless. Besides those two, I would not put any unlicensed cards in my books again. I would buy custom made models if I saw one I liked, but I am very picky. Sketches I regard as art and therefore that gets to be a very gray area to me.

Always enjoy reading Raven's comments on CTalk. She is persuasive & thought-provoking.
And shes not paying me to say this LOL.

Usually these bootleg cards are offered with some deception involved regarding their source (i.e. show exclusive, AMC, movie company, etc)
Thats what bothers me the most. I don't add them to my collection. I feel that bootlegs downgrade this hobby.

It also confuses me - It becomes tougher to recognize whats legit & whats not on the auction site.

Raven, I absolutely agree.
My intent was just to point out that bootleg products could very well have a value to a collection. And even be valuable in trade among fans and enthusiasts.
Hadn't I seen the lengthy and loving thread about the sticker machines and then their prices on auction websites, I might not even have thought of adding to the discussion here. As far as I understood these were hardly official material.
That being said, bootleg products never make money for the rights holders, or better yet, the creators. That alone should be reason to shy away from them.
I would however add a nuance. When bought on secondary market, only the traders are affected. Just as would be the case for official product. As long as both parties are honest and in agreement about the nature of the product... well, as you clearly said: it's their money to do with as they please.

Main point here, we agree.

quote:

Originally posted by monkeyafterdark:
My intent was just to point out that bootleg products could very well have a value to a collection. And even be valuable in trade among fans and enthusiasts.

That being said, bootleg products never make money for the rights holders, or better yet, the creators. That alone should be reason to shy away from them.

I would however add a nuance. When bought on secondary market, only the traders are affected. Just as would be the case for official product. As long as both parties are honest and in agreement about the nature of the product... well, as you clearly said: it's their money to do with as they please.

Main point here, we agree.

We do, it's just that we have to acknowledge all sides of the issue. It's not that collectors should never, never, never do this. It's that collectors should understand why they might not want to do this or what the consequences are if they decide to do this.

One thing that struck me in this thread's conversation is the way people sometimes use secondary market value and collectable value as though they are interchangeable terms. They are two different things. Lots of things sell and have a market demand and value without ever having a collectible value.

Think of it as the difference between a diamond ring in 14K gold and a zircon ring in gold color overlay. That zircon ring may look as good or better than the diamond ring. It has a price, there may be a lot people buying them, but it will never be an heirloom and its material worth will never appreciate because it is not a real diamond or real gold.

If you go to resell your ring to a jeweler at some point, he will buy the diamond/gold ring and send you home with your zircon/gold colored ring.

I'm not saying that trading cards and jewelry have anything in common, although there is name brand counterfeiting in that industry too. I'm just trying to bring out that everything has a monetary price, but that does not make it a collectible price.