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quote:
To elaborate on Chuck's point...

Seriously, if I bought out a company - let's say I was Panini and I bought out Donruss and there is a vault full of nonredeemable redemptions and such...

Seeing as though I now own them I can do whatever the heck I want with them. I can open up a new eBay account and sell them quietly, or I can pack them into random boxes in each new case of product as 'bonus hits.' Or...

I could burn them whilst dancing naked around the bonfire singing showtunes.

Up to me, really. Kinda like how it's up to Mr. Gray.


I appreciate your point-of-view. But you're subtracting 'what happened' from what actually happened; creating an abstract vacuum argument.

I, for one, am not arguing whether or not Brian can torch the entire contents of the Inkworks inventory. Certainly that is his right.

But let's re-examine/re-inject what DID happen.

After purchasing the inventory - he surreptitiously began selling off the big dollar autos through a separate eBay account. That means the Angelina Jolies and John Ritters were being parceled out so that Mr. Gray could recoup his investment. (and if the rumors are accurate, and I believe they are, then we're actually talking about Mr. Richard McWilliam's, CEO of Upper Deck, investment)

Now, had he done that for the entire lot - fine. Good. NP.

But the plan from the get-go was to re-package the remaining Inkworks inventory into Ink Archives. And this is the important tidbit - all the while suggesting that the high dollar /most sought after autos would be inserted into this product line.

Hyping up his Ink Archives - having already sold off a good portion of the very best product leaving behind crumbs that were advertised as cakes. Anyone see a Jolie Auto?

I know, I know - the product sell sheet didn't depict it. Fine. How many Holly Marie Combs or Rose McGowans have you seen or heard about?

Deceit is an ugly word - especially if it's true.
 
Posts: 6 | Location: Honolulu, Hawaii | Registered: June 22, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by HawaiianMadmacs:
quote:
To elaborate on Chuck's point...

Seriously, if I bought out a company - let's say I was Panini and I bought out Donruss and there is a vault full of nonredeemable redemptions and such...

Seeing as though I now own them I can do whatever the heck I want with them. I can open up a new eBay account and sell them quietly, or I can pack them into random boxes in each new case of product as 'bonus hits.' Or...

I could burn them whilst dancing naked around the bonfire singing showtunes.

Up to me, really. Kinda like how it's up to Mr. Gray.


I appreciate your point-of-view. But you're subtracting 'what happened' from what actually happened; creating an abstract vacuum argument.

I, for one, am not arguing whether or not Brian can torch the entire contents of the Inkworks inventory. Certainly that is his right.

But let's re-examine/re-inject what DID happen.

After purchasing the inventory - he surreptitiously began selling off the big dollar autos through a separate eBay account. That means the Angelina Jolies and John Ritters were being parceled out so that Mr. Gray could recoup his investment. (and if the rumors are accurate, and I believe they are, then we're actually talking about Mr. Richard McWilliam's, CEO of Upper Deck, investment)

Now, had he done that for the entire lot - fine. Good. NP.

But the plan from the get-go was to re-package the remaining Inkworks inventory into Ink Archives. And this is the important tidbit - all the while suggesting that the high dollar /most sought after autos would be inserted into this product line.

Hyping up his Ink Archives - having already sold off a good portion of the very best product leaving behind crumbs that were advertised as cakes. Anyone see a Jolie Auto?

I know, I know - the product sell sheet didn't depict it. Fine. How many Holly Marie Combs or Rose McGowans have you seen or heard about?

Deceit is an ugly word - especially if it's true.


Actually Brian didn't get any Angelina Jolie's. He stated as much. He actually stated that he was trying to pick up a couple of Jolie's to insert into the product, but I don't know if he did or not. He also didn't sell any Ritters with the other account (at least that I saw). I have seen one Holly Marie Combs pulled so far (it's on the break board).

My main point is that Razor put out an awesome product regardless of the autos they sold with the other account (I actually purchase 4 or 5 cards from that account). It's a blast to break. Even with my second case being so-so I was extremely happy with my overall two case break, and I imagine I'll be happy with the two cases I have coming (hopefully I don't pull too many doubles, but considering there are about 400 different autos in the product and I pulled about 115 different autos in my first two cases I imagine I will pull a few more doubles this time).
 
Posts: 860 | Location: Alaska | Registered: May 28, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I personally was bummed when they pulled the eBay auctions, and I didn't think it was needed. . .

I've enjoyed picking up cards from Ink Archives as well.

Dealers and people who have opened the product seem generally happy . . . it seems like a win-win to me.

Jon
 
Posts: 5202 | Location: Parts Unknown. | Registered: January 25, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by HawaiianMadmacs:
quote:
I just wonder how folks are still able to type with hands wrung so very much over so very little...


And I wonder how folks put honesty below shady sneakiness, then wonder how other people might be upset. Strange world indeed.

Got the feeling that folks that proclaim 'narcs' and 'snitches' as bad, but genuine two-faced jerks as good - are the same folks? Mebbe we oughta give Madoff a party instead? You know, in keeping with our inverse-reality?


It can only benefit Razor to there are people out there watching things close enough to notice that which may appear untoward and that those vigilant persons have the ability to inform a lot of people all at once of such findings, so I appreciate your posts. Indeed to quote the only man sure not to sue me (myself), here is a snippet of my own NSU board post (Inkworks Status thread) from well before this set came out. In it, I go on record as putting Razor “on notice” regarding their standards of determining the correct mix of cards going into their product. To wit:

Razor will bank the the money for this first set, no matter what, but if the product they release is found extremely wanting in terms of what cards are actually inserted in the packs, they will have a decidedly tough time selling a series II. If they do indeed have enough cards to issue further series, it would be a good idea to load the first release with at least SOME of the good stuff to cultivate positive word of mouth.
It's not like the box breakdowns, whatever they may be, won't find their way onto this and other boards…

So I do feel gripes regarding card composition of Razor Ink Archives are reasonable, however remember this set…
A). …is done deal. It has been out for some time now.
B) …is a successful one that non-sports lovers (yes lovers, if not mere collectors, and certainly not those solely into cards for profit) should rejoice at given that many, many cherished Inkworks autographs have been neatly repackaged and offered with the serious card collector in mind, down to the archival case each card comes in
C) …has helped the industry which is an all out positive, given the current struggles of the economy to which the hobby is not immune. Razor solicited and delivered (in a fairly timely fashion) a limited case run that was a quick sell out. Those distributors that have them have not had to drop the price to sell them (quite the contrary), which has unfortunately occurred with many recent more traditional non-sport releases.

Indiana Jones Crystal Skull from Topps, for instance can be had for $15 per box (less than 1/3 of retail) and that’s despite a solid autograph lineup. If the Razor boxes were loaded with junk, the prices would have come way down by now (and I would surely have purchased a lot of them, if only for the nifty holders.)

So for those whose biggest concern has to do with what cards actually went into the Razor packs, its always a good idea to keep up with the NSU “Box Breakdowns” section where one can see some of the actual cards that made it into packs. The postings there provide an enormous amount of information whether ones interest is collecting or buying & selling, and I have always found them to be trustworthy. Anyway, the thread reveals there have been some choice cards in these packs, while the less notable among them are nevertheless “worth” a couple of bucks at least. How many times have you spent $15-$20 (the price of a Razor re-pack) on regular packs only to not pull ANYTHING of note. I could not count the number of times that’s happened to me.

As far as your odds of finding one of the “Super Autographs” in a pack/box/case of Razor Ink Archives, my question would be “Why do you expect to have better luck with a Razor pack than with a pack of Inkworks cards the autograph was originally issued in?” That is, most Inkworks boxes only came with one autograph per box (and sometimes the odds were even longer). Your chances of getting a Jolie, Garner, Carpenter, etc were always very slim as it was. I just bought 4 cases of “the Spirit” cards and did not get the Samuel Jackson Autograph (they were rumored to be 1 in 10 cases). I have purchaed MANY other Inkworks cards over the years and never pulled one of the “super” autographs, which brings me to my point (yeah, yeah, finally!):

The other stuff in the sets justified my purchase, and that’s why I bought as many Inkworks cards as I did. A “super” autograph would’ve been most welcomed, but I didn’t honestly expect a Jolie in my Tomb Raider box. And while an autograph card with from a megastar would be fantastic in a Razor pack, there was so much other good stuff in them, the market decided that the initial asking price of about $15 per pack proved was a bargain. Again, check the NSU breakdowns for this product, and consider that EACH one of those cards shown would have up until very recently required the purchase of a full box (or more)of cards at a price of anywhere from $40 to $70 per box on average with NO guarantees that’d you’d even get autographs as nice as some of those shown in the breakdowns.

Razor has done a good job with this set, although I certainly hope that should they release another set as rumored, they will post a listing somewhere of EXACTLY what was placed into the packs down to the numbers for each card. After all, they should have nothing to hide if even a similar amount of the good stuff found in series 1 goes into a 2nd release, and it would go a loooong way towards eliminating the biggest controversy.

Earlier, Richard McWilliams was mentioned and I’ve heard of many questionable decisions he’s made regarding Upper Deck sports cards. I also know Razor has encountered controversy with some of its past “cut” autograph sets which faced well-founded challenges towards their methods of authenticating the autographs used. Even so, I hope you would not have joined this board solely to complain about the practices of Razor (or even Upper Deck) or worse to perhaps continue some earlier vendetta against them, and I look forward to your future postings on other subjects. With that said, meantime, I'm not sure how "honesty" is being somehow placed "shady sneakiness" when none of those things even apply to this matter. The "narcs, snitches, and two-face" stuff I confess to not even kind of understanding what you meant. And as far as even mentioning the name of Bernie Madoff in some odd relation to the misdeeds of actions of Razor, real or imagined, that can only elicit a "wow" from me.

Ordinarily, I would not have even chimed in on this kind of discussion as I tend mightily toward the positive. However, my interest in the Inkworks legacy demands I defend this release (and hope for more), because I do not want any of Inkworks cards sitting in warehouses. The Inkworks Simpsons autographs and sketch cards are my all-time favorite issues and I have been collecting cards for over 30 years (I am now 38) so I maintain a lot of fondness for the company and respect for what they did. Truth to tell, I will be glad when Razor has none of these autographs left and all of them are where they belong, in collectors hands.

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Posts: 3129 | Location: California | Registered: December 23, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Bloody well said that man Thumb Up

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Posts: 275 | Location: Norwich, UK | Registered: December 03, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Excellent post, chesspieceface.

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Posts: 66 | Location: Lodi, NY | Registered: June 13, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Wow. Amazingly lengthy, if slightly off-topic post.

Let's start with my referencing the terms you "don't understand". And why I used them. In the United States there has been a decidedly unfavorable change in the perception of people who used to do the 'right thing'. The popular example, and one that is now sadly commonplace, is that of the witness to a crime. In our society those people are considered 'snitches' and are held in lower esteem than the criminals. Hence - the inverted world.

Once you have that - draw the line to the Madoff reference. 'Wow' notwithstanding. The sarcasm obviously missed and ... well... here we are.

Now to the meat of the matter:

quote:
Those distributors that have them have not had to drop the price to sell them (quite the contrary)


My turn for a 'wow'. Talk about blatant irregularity in a statement. Offers from the initial $1000/case ask prices have substantially died to under $750 with a slow steady slide since the release. Will they ever go below the dealer buy price of $550 - doubtful. But to claim the product hasn't tumbled is wrong and I don't appreciate the inaccuracy. Check your facts sir. Further, I make the claim that the reason it's gone down is that collectors have realized that the, how did you put it, "super autographs" aren't likely to be had from any reasonable case or box bust since - this is important - the insertion rate was never made public. AND YET ANOTHER REASON why this is hardly a good buy.

You ask if the reality of busting a 'super auto' was a fair assessment given that those same autographs were tough to begin with in their original product distribution.

But this isn't a re-release of product now is it? It's autographs only. How you can address this by asking, “Why do you expect to have better luck with a Razor pack than with a pack of Inkworks cards the autograph was originally issued in?" - well... uhmmm... because ... it is? <shrug>

Two more things. One I think you're taking the position that I'm 'against' this product. I'm not. I wanted to make clear that realities of what could be reasonably expected from a company that has a proven history of falsehoods, back-tracking, and silence. I didn't purchase a case or a box - but I happily devoured several nice autos at a very good cost from those that did; much to their regret I suspect.

And lastly, downplaying Razor's past misdeeds does disservice to your fellow collectors. I hope that Razor can & will learn from their missteps. I hope they can continue to grow. As a fellow small business person I honestly believe we're all in the same boat - and if one goes down, we all go down. But don't prop up a halo when one isn't warranted.

P.S. I have no idea why Topps and their insert ratios were brought into this discussion. Seriously.

P.P.S. Chuck if you're reading this - loved your live video bust. Go Alaska!
 
Posts: 6 | Location: Honolulu, Hawaii | Registered: June 22, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
B) …is a successful one that non-sports lovers (yes lovers, if not mere collectors, and certainly not those solely into cards for profit) should rejoice at given that many, many cherished Inkworks autographs have been neatly repackaged and offered with the serious card collector in mind, down to the archival case each card comes in


WHY is it that when you say anything negative you are not a "collector" or "lover" I love the pirates but complain about them. If I do not accept things as they are why am I not a lover of collecting. IF I didn't love it I wouldn't be slowly getting back into it after selling everything off for personal reason..

This always makes me laugh, when ever anything negative is said the poster gets attacked not the company or product. I guess I hate collecting since I'm not all that fond of the way they did business on this set Roll Eyes

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Posts: 3874 | Location: Pennsylvania | Registered: January 29, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by HawaiianMadmacs:
Hyping up his Ink Archives - having already sold off a good portion of the very best product leaving behind crumbs that were advertised as cakes. Anyone see a Jolie Auto?

I know, I know - the product sell sheet didn't depict it. Fine. How many Holly Marie Combs or Rose McGowans have you seen or heard about?

Deceit is an ugly word - especially if it's true.

Well I can't answer your question as to how many, but I certainly know of at least one. I pulled a Holly Marie Combs Charmed autograph card from a box I got this past Sunday. I posted the breaks on Card Talk.

This is a card that I would never have owned any other way so I'm pretty happy about it. I'm not saying this is typical, far from it, but deceit is not only an ugly word, it also has to be proven.
 
Posts: 9494 | Location: New York | Registered: November 20, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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You're missing my point Raven. It's not a question of being able to bust a 'super auto' - undoubtedly someone will, as you clearly did.

The issue I'm addressing is regarding what Brian Gray/Razor did prior to announcing the creation of Ink Archives. Which was: Sell off the 'super autos' via an eBay private account. Questions and intense investigations by hobbyists like Mario at Wax Heaven (http://completist.wordpress.com/) forced Razor to pull the auctions. Which is what happens when you shine a light onto a dark deed done being done in the shadows.

Questions/discussions about "how good" Ink Archives were born out that situation. And it's this situation I'm addressing.

Indeed deceit, because I can't imagine anyone claiming goodness or fairness to describe what was done. This isn't a legal discussion, nor am I claiming that super autos were not inserted. But in no way would I encourage purchasing Archives in box or especially case form, which is what 'cheese' was doing.

A case of differing opinions.
 
Posts: 6 | Location: Honolulu, Hawaii | Registered: June 22, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I guess I still don't see the issue. Razor bought the autos so they are theirs to sell however they want. Don't get me wrong i would have loved to pull two or three Eliza Dushku's or Summer Glau's per case. I watched many of the auctions Brian posted under that other eBay account, and I know he didn't list any Jolie's (as I stated he's said that he didn't get any of those from Inkworks), McGowan's, Ritter's, Ozzbourne's, Combs, Milano's. He did sell some Lilly's, Glau's, Dushku's, Fillion's, Baldwin's and others. And even if he did sell some of the big names why is that an issue? Ink Archives has been a huge hit so they obviously did their job when it came to packing this product so I'm inclined to believe that they were selling off extra autos.
 
Posts: 860 | Location: Alaska | Registered: May 28, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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Chuck, if you're happy - I'm happy for you. Honestly. <nod>

I just don't, scratch that, won't hold back anymore in regards to Razor. Because of fear of being banned from the other board we're members of, I've choked back a year's worth of bile born out of their mischief and backsliding. Remember what happened to Mario when he went to war with what was essentially a Razor cheerleader/apologist forum? Flame doesn't describe it - more like flame thrower barbeque. All for telling the truth.

If a member actively promotes Archives - then a fair hearing should be given to those who see the other side.

All I know is this: I scored royally from dealers and collectors who busted. Example: I'm a huge fan of Deadwood and would've given an eye tooth had Inkworks done them. But they did have my favorite character signed - Ian McShane. Now, I spent the better part of two months trying to negotiate with dealers for one of his Darkness autos for under $50. Nada. One even told me I was 'crazy' for even asking.

Because of Archives - I got my copy - for $35, including shipping.

See - this is the very crux of the issue. Dealers and collectors selling off extras - only realizing very poor resale. Then to have guys like Chesspieceface (sorry guy, I thought it said 'cheese') more or less continually promote it to other collectors. Even having some 'high five' him for his efforts.

I think balance is in order.
 
Posts: 6 | Location: Honolulu, Hawaii | Registered: June 22, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Balance is in order and a great deal less heat might help.

There are clearly two entrenched positions here, a group of people who are very happy with the breakdown of a variety of midlevel autos and occasional better ones. The other group is concerned about the apparently low pull rates of very high end autos. It seems to me that neither group is likely to convince the other, since the positions are essentially based on different expectations.

Perhaps a more balanced approach would be for people to talk about their own views only, and not repond to the reactions of others. That is "I like the product because..." or "I don't like the product because..." rather than "XXX is wrong"
 
Posts: 1574 | Location: temp UK, usually Australia | Registered: July 31, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I feel like I've said this before too, but what's the big deal about Razor selling cards that they've rightfully purchased from Inkworks? I don't get what or how this makes it wrong or deceitful or shady or anything. They certainly can do that. Why would they have to put all of their autograph cards in a product like Razor Ink Archives or any other mass releases? Because some people think that it's their right to have all cards available to them in one product? If they stopped selling cards on eBay, that really doesn't mean anything. They're damned if they do, and damned if they don't. If they continued that practice, they'd be vilified by people. When they stop, they get the same treatment. I'd imagine that Razor doesn't respond because it's not worth the effort. The people who are unhappy are conspiracy theorists and basically speaking from no legitimate knowledge of any real numbers or product. There's way too much speculation on how companies do business. It's totally inappropriate to make comments of deceit when one doesn't understand it's a company's right to do whatever they want with products that they own. I don't think any company owes it to anyone to announce how they will sell/distribute anything to anyone. And then be judged by their decisions is just ridiculous.
 
Posts: 366 | Location: Richmond | Registered: May 05, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by clearblue: I feel like I've said this before too, but what's the big deal about Razor selling cards that they've rightfully purchased from Inkworks? I don't get what or how this makes it wrong or deceitful or shady or anything. They certainly can do that. Why would they have to put all of their autograph cards in a product like Razor Ink Archives or any other mass releases? Because some people think that it's their right to have all cards available to them in one product? If they stopped selling cards on eBay, that really doesn't mean anything. They're damned if they do, and damned if they don't. If they continued that practice, they'd be vilified by people. When they stop, they get the same treatment. I'd imagine that Razor doesn't respond because it's not worth the effort. The people who are unhappy are conspiracy theorists and basically speaking from no legitimate knowledge of any real numbers or product. There's way too much speculation on how companies do business. It's totally inappropriate to make comments of deceit when one doesn't understand it's a company's right to do whatever they want with products that they own. I don't think any company owes it to anyone to announce how they will sell/distribute anything to anyone. And then be judged by their decisions is just ridiculous.


The way I see it, and apparently other collectors do too, is that by selling the autographs direct before Ink Archives was released they lowered the value of the autos in their product before those purchasing boxes/cases had a chance to open any and make no mistake, the autograph prices have dropped significantly and I've bought a number of autos because of it . As with any product the autograph prices would have come down after release anyway but Razor elected to skim the cream off the top for themselves first and to make matters worse they didn't do it through their established and well known Razor ebay account they used a different account that nobody knew was connected to Razor until a few collectors did some digging and dicovered that fact

To be honest the content of the boxes is about what I was expecting, lots of low end autos a decent number of mid level autos and a smattering of higher end autos , mostly ones that had been by redemption so there was more left (like Dushku and Ozzy Osbourne).
Yes, the autos belong to Razor and they could do with them as they wished and in the short term it was probably good for business as they got maximum profit from those cards by getting to sell them first but in the longer run it was a poor move as many people perceived it as shady and it was just 1 more ethically ambiguous move by Razor after a number of other problems causing collectors to shy away from future releases.
I personally didn't buy any sealed product after their selling from an alternate account was discovered and I had planned to try a couple of boxes and I'm sure I'm not the only one who changed their mind and the non sport market isn't so big that companies can afford to start alienating customers, not in this economy.

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Posts: 5142 | Location: Vancouver/B.C./Canada | Registered: October 13, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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This has been said before, but I want to put my 2 cents in...

I don't see how Razor's actions are "shady".

This company bought the autographs fair and square, with their own money right? So, in my book that means that they can do whatever they want with them, right?

If they want to sell the big autos off for more profit (before or after the boxed release), then why not? If they wanted to only put 10 big autos (out of the entire inventory) in the boxed product, that really is their perogitive, it is up to the buyer to make the decision whether or not to purchase.

Sure, that may make alot of collector/dealers mad, and one can say "false advertising" depending on what the ads said in regards to insertion ratios (honestly, I did not read their advertisements completely so I do not know what the "odds" or what have you they said the big autos would be), but these autos/release are their property so they can do with what they want. Right?

I, myself, did not purchase any (I also have never purchased anything from Razor), nor do I plan on purchasing anything from them at this current time (if they got something like Lost, that's another story...).

I decided not to purchase the product because I thought that it wouldn't be worth the money I would put into it. Sure it would be fun, but I figured it would be a lot of low end and some middle end and maybe 1 or 2 high end every now and again in the boxes. Reality set in - There weren't alot of the high end autos in the original releases, some of these cards were released many years ago, so I figured there would not be that many in the boxes. That's why I didn't buy. (plus I've spent well over $1,000 on vet bills for my dog and 8 guinea pigs in the past 3 months alone! But that's another long story).

On why they used a different eBay account to sell these cards? I don't know, maybe eBay had them at a different rate then their original account (maybe bigger sellers have different rates? I don't know), or maybe they didn't want people to wig out (like some are, but I don't mean that as an insult to anyone here, just a lack of words in my vocabulary)? Or who knows? That's also their perogitive in all honesty. I really don't understand why they pulled the auctions.

This is entirely my opinion and I do not mean any disrespect to anyone here (with differing or same opinions), but it's just my 2 cents.

I just don't understand why people are getting bent out of shape when a company disburses with the product that they legally have aquired -however they want?

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Posts: 1914 | Location: Baltimore, Maryland, USA | Registered: May 26, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Jim Streich:
quote:
B) …is a successful one that non-sports lovers (yes lovers, if not mere collectors, and certainly not those solely into cards for profit) should rejoice at given that many, many cherished Inkworks autographs have been neatly repackaged and offered with the serious card collector in mind, down to the archival case each card comes in


WHY is it that when you say anything negative you are not a "collector" or "lover" I love the pirates but complain about them. If I do not accept things as they are why am I not a lover of collecting. IF I didn't love it I wouldn't be slowly getting back into it after selling everything off for personal reason..

This always makes me laugh, when ever anything negative is said the poster gets attacked not the company or product. I guess I hate collecting since I'm not all that fond of the way they did business on this set Roll Eyes


HI Jim
I've always enjoyed reading your posts and I did not mean to offend you or impugn your motivations regarding your reasons for being involved with non-sports cards.

In regard to the lovers, collectors, and profiteers, I do not judge one to be better than another (having been all three) and particularly in regard to this Razor product.

All I meant with that apparently clumsy statement is that "collectors" may not like so many autographs being so readily available because it could in some ways make their collections a bit less distinctive. As far as "profiteers", the dollar value of the autographs will certainly take a hit with so much more inventory out there all at once.
And those I consider card "card lovers" won't really be concerned with either of those things, instead being glad to have a chance a getting some of these autographs they might have given up on previously.

I am not a Razor apologist by the way, and as I said, they have invited a lot of this outcry with some of their more dubious business decisions, so hopefully they'll learn from this very thread and avoid making similar controversial ones in the future.

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Everywhere around this burg they're running out of verbs, adverbs, and adjectives. Everywhere around this town, they're running out of nouns.
 
Posts: 3129 | Location: California | Registered: December 23, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Silver Card Talk Member
Picture of Scifi_Collector
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quote:
Originally posted by Jessica:
This has been said before, but I want to put my 2 cents in...

I don't see how Razor's actions are "shady".

This company bought the autographs fair and square, with their own money right? So, in my book that means that they can do whatever they want with them, right?

If they want to sell the big autos off for more profit (before or after the boxed release), then why not? If they wanted to only put 10 big autos (out of the entire inventory) in the boxed product, that really is their perogitive, it is up to the buyer to make the decision whether or not to purchase.


I decided not to purchase the product because I thought that it wouldn't be worth the money I would put into it. Sure it would be fun, but I figured it would be a lot of low end and some middle end and maybe 1 or 2 high end every now and again in the boxes. Reality set in - There weren't alot of the high end autos in the original releases, some of these cards were released many years ago, so I figured there would not be that many in the boxes. That's why I didn't buy.


Rereading your comments struck with me. On one hand its ok for the company to sell the big auto's off for more profit and on the other hand you didn't buy the product because you were afraid there were not alot of high end auto's in the release.

Hence if the company did not sell the autos separately and inserted those cards into the product more people would have bought the boxes and cases and would have been happier with the product and the company would have made more mone.
 
Posts: 1602 | Location: Nevada | Registered: August 01, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Gold Card Talk Member
Picture of chesspieceface
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by HawaiianMadmacs:

Now to the meat of the matter:

quote:
Those distributors that have them have not had to drop the price to sell them (quite the contrary)


My turn for a 'wow'. Talk about blatant irregularity in a statement. Offers from the initial $1000/case ask prices have substantially died to under $750 with a slow steady slide since the release. Will they ever go below the dealer buy price of $550 - doubtful. But to claim the product hasn't tumbled is wrong and I don't appreciate the inaccuracy. Check your facts sir.


I said nothing about Topps insertion ratios, and was only pointing out this is a tough market and Razor has bucked the trend with this release which can no longer be had at the initial release price (and likely never will again as you have kindly concurred). So with my facts checked I dutifully point out no tumbling of prices have occurred as $750 is still $200 more than $550. I used a calculator to determine this. Cooling off from a near doubling of the initial distributor price is not tumbling in any sense of the word and is in fact commonplace when a product is so hot right out of the gate. Tumbling would instead require case prices on Razor Ink Archives to drop WELL below $550. Indiana Jones KOTCS cases prices actually have "tumbled", which is why I mentioned that product.

Finally, I have not bought any Razor sealed product at all and actually don't intend to, opting instead to go your route and pick up singles I've been interested in at the resultant reduced prices. I'm just glad the product exists, which really is all I needed to say, and the last I will say on the matter.

As far as doing a disservice to my fellow collectors, we'll just have to disagree on that, but I have never told anyone on this board to buy anything, and most likely never will. (nice weasel there, eh?)

You have every right to your opinions and I appreciate your postings, so keep them coming. You are clearly thinking about things in a meaningful way.

BTW, I also loved Deadwood, congrats on your McShane autograph. Even the man's signature is cool!

____________________
Everywhere around this burg they're running out of verbs, adverbs, and adjectives. Everywhere around this town, they're running out of nouns.
 
Posts: 3129 | Location: California | Registered: December 23, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Platinum Card Talk Member
Picture of Raven
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by HawaiianMadmacs:
You're missing my point Raven. It's not a question of being able to bust a 'super auto' - undoubtedly someone will, as you clearly did.

The issue I'm addressing is regarding what Brian Gray/Razor did prior to announcing the creation of Ink Archives. Which was: Sell off the 'super autos' via an eBay private account. Questions and intense investigations by hobbyists like Mario at Wax Heaven (http://completist.wordpress.com/) forced Razor to pull the auctions. Which is what happens when you shine a light onto a dark deed done being done in the shadows.

A case of differing opinions.


No, I'm not missing your point at all. This has been a very thoughtful discussion and I think everyone gets the idea that it was the eBay direct sales of higher end autographs that offended some people, including yourself.

Whether Razor had used its own account or the private account, they were bound to get criticized. That is why they should have just used their own account and not pulled the auctions. The Inkworks autograph cards are theirs to sell as they deem most profitable to them, that goes along with the business model.

As long as the Ink Archives release lived up to its advertising and contained at least a few of every high end autograph mentioned no one should feel cheated. There should never have been an expectation that all available copies would be seeded.

And certainly the increased supply of all these cards in the market, whether considered low, medium or high end, have lowered prices across the board. You can blame Inkworks for that, Razor is just doing what any good profiteer would do.
 
Posts: 9494 | Location: New York | Registered: November 20, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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