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What is the state of counterfeits in entertainment cards?
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Gold Card Talk Member
Picture of mykdude
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The back is jacked up too. The wood grain edge on these cards are straight. I get that off leaning effect when I try to photograph my cards at the wrong angle.
 
Posts: 4063 | Location: Tennessee | Registered: March 09, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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The text of his name and character name on the back seem skinnier on this card than the other I see a scan of.
 
Posts: 5130 | Location: Parts Unknown. | Registered: January 25, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of mykdude
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Would be interesting to get a card manufacturer perspective on this. Could these be possible print errors? I do know that print copies can come out with reversed characters but I really don't know why that happens. Could that process jack up other parts of the card as well?
 
Posts: 4063 | Location: Tennessee | Registered: March 09, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of Raven
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quote:
Originally posted by mykdude:
There is much more to look at than just a questionable signature.

As a buyer, if you are uncomfortable with it...don't bid or bin or whatever.


As an autograph card collector from back in the days when certified autograph cards did not exist I will not only agree with you, I would go so far as to say that no one should ever call an autograph a forgery or fake. You probably can't prove it, it will probably mean nothing even if by some miracle you could prove it and you might even be held liable by some seller if you call his/her items out.

Autopens are different because they are obvious and are easily detected when compared to each other. You can call out an autopen. However bad signatures can look awful, compare to nothing and still be genuine. The only thing you can say, if asked, is that it is not a good display copy and you would leave it where it is.

And before anyone says that's why forgeries persist on the market, it isn't. It's because penalties and enforcement don't exist. It's because to make a claim you first have to prove without a doubt that its a fake signature and then you have to prove that the seller knew it was fake when he/she is going to state that they were fooled too. It is because a concerned citizen has to do the work of the FBI to get someone in trouble for selling questionable autographs and is more likely to get themselves in trouble for doing it. Wink

"If you are uncomfortable with it don't bid or BIN", yes that's right. Don't look for ghosts and dots, which mean nothing by the way, after you have the card. Don't alert the media after its too late. It is difficult to counterfeit a certified card, not impossible, but only cost effective for really expensive cards. A certified card with a bad autograph is more likely to have an autopen or ghost signature from the signer's end or be a case where known blank cards went out into the wild.

Even with certified cards you must do your research and if you suspect something's wrong find another one. Ebay buyers are still picking up $7 SMG TTM autograph cards and are happy. That's why there are so many fake autographs, because people want to believe and anything could be genuine. I'm certainly not going to be the one who bursts their bubble, but I'm not buying it either. Wink
 
Posts: 9340 | Location: New York | Registered: November 20, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Right, that tends to be my first question. Yes it COULD be counterfeit but is it really worth the cost and effort to fake a multi layered card that isn't worth very much in the first place?

Just to physically print a professional looking card would cost major bucks for a decent printer. Gloss card stock is not cheap. Then add the high cost of ink to that. Not to mention getting whatever foil or holographic technology to work.

Would be much more simple to crank out a stack of 5x7's and start signing.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: mykdude,
 
Posts: 4063 | Location: Tennessee | Registered: March 09, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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It seems worth it to someone.
 
Posts: 5130 | Location: Parts Unknown. | Registered: January 25, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of mykdude
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The idea is that it isn't worth it to everyone. Does it happen? Sure. Is it wide spread throughout the hobby? I don't think so.

It certainly has more checks and balances than most other autograph formats.
 
Posts: 4063 | Location: Tennessee | Registered: March 09, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of Raven
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quote:
Originally posted by mykdude:
Right, that tends to be my first question. Yes it COULD be counterfeit but is it really worth the cost and effort to fake a multi layered card that isn't worth very much in the first place?


The answer would be no of course, but you might have to consider the card's history. Specifically referring to that Holloway card, almost all of the Lost autograph cards have dropped significantly in value. Holloway is from Season 1 and there was a time when he was a hot actor and that card was worth more than it is now. So while there is little demand to counterfeit it now, there could have been a time when there was. It's not likely, but not impossible.

However those perceived errors in the card design may have always been on all or some of the copies of that particular card. You need to confirm with Lost card collectors to see if what they own matches up. I don't have one.
 
Posts: 9340 | Location: New York | Registered: November 20, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I bought a case of LOST SEASON ONE back then, and the punctuation on my Holloway card is correct.
 
Posts: 2426 | Location: USA | Registered: November 08, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I wasn't a Lost fan and I really didn't buy tons of Inkworks' products because I was a big sampler and I bought a few boxes from everybody. So when it shutdown and Razor Ink came out cheap, that's when I bought as much as I could find and got the majority of my Inkworks autograph cards then.

I mention this because out of those boxes I pulled three Emilie De Raven A13s from 2006 Lost Season 2. At the time they were going for $150 and even though I couldn't have cared less, the price was nice. It did seem strange to have that big a card in multiples though. Now you can find it for $40. Big Grin

But I never trusted Inkworks vault situation after those 3 cards showed up and I'm not that lucky.
 
Posts: 9340 | Location: New York | Registered: November 20, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Yes, I did consider that cards such as Holloway were a hot(ish) item at one time but still it was never crazy money.

As far as this particular example I am not saying it's not a counterfeit. Nor would I buy it if I was looking for this particular card. As a counterfeit (if it is) it is not a very good one. I can understand messed up alignment or color issues but why would a counterfeiter reverse quotation marks? Doesn't make sense.

Still I think I am allowed to be curious if there may be a legitimate reason for it. Unfortunately we would need someone who knows what they are talking about (card printers) to provide such an explanation. We know that card manufacturer's remove errors from the print run on a regular basis. Some get missed and roll out to production.

Since I have been playing around with making my own custom cards I have come to realize there are lines of quality that are much more difficult to obtain than most people realize. Not to mention money and resources lost with trial and error.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: mykdude,
 
Posts: 4063 | Location: Tennessee | Registered: March 09, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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This is my Rosamund Pike card, a clear R, P and E:-

[IMG:left] [/IMG]

regards

John

John

____________________
 
Posts: 1949 | Location: United Kingdom | Registered: October 14, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of mykdude
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Yup, a quick search of authenticated Pike and it becomes quickly clear that her signature is all over the place. Different R's P's sometimes she dots the "i". Even the examples we have posted it looks like she used different letters for "osamund" Sometime you can make out the "k" other times it is just a hump. Sometimes you get the final "e" sometimes it just flat lines.

And these cards are the nicer signatures I have seen!
 
Posts: 4063 | Location: Tennessee | Registered: March 09, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of Raven
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quote:
Originally posted by mykdude:
Still I think I am allowed to be curious if there may be a legitimate reason for it. Unfortunately we would need someone who knows what they are talking about (card printers) to provide such an explanation. We know that card manufacturer's remove errors from the print run on a regular basis. Some get missed and roll out to production.


Yeah, that was what I was alluding to when I was talking about those De Raven autos turning up so easily in Razor Ink. We don't know what or how much Inkworks held in its vault, we don't know what or how much Razor got or exactly what Razor may have done with it once it was repackaged.

De Raven was Season 2 and Holloway was Season 1, so its not impossible to speculate that a few of his cards might still be held. An important on-card autograph wouldn't be destroyed for quality control issues either, if you want to make that wild guess. We're never going to know abut any of it and weird to still have these questions a decade later.

In another thread we are talking about Stana Katic claiming her Spirit autograph sticker card is a fake. Is it, or did she just forget she signed stickers, or did someone else on her end sign for her and she forgot that? Don't know, but Spirit cards came out of those Razor boxes too and stickers could have been lying around because that product was all redemption autograph cards, all stickers, and many may not have been redeemed prior to the closing because it was one of Inkworks' last sets made.

So yes there is a lot of room to be curious and probably absent any solid answers or evidence, everybody's going to think what seems best for them. Smile
 
Posts: 9340 | Location: New York | Registered: November 20, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of Electrawoman Cards f/k/a jane
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quote:
Originally posted by Raven:
quote:
Originally posted by mykdude:
Still I think I am allowed to be curious if there may be a legitimate reason for it. Unfortunately we would need someone who knows what they are talking about (card printers) to provide such an explanation. We know that card manufacturer's remove errors from the print run on a regular basis. Some get missed and roll out to production.


My theory, Stana is as charming as Nathan Fillion claimed. She signed them in one day or two and has simply forgotten. It was a long time ago, and probably meant very little to her, just another promotional thing to do for that movie. They most likely are real.

Yeah, that was what I was alluding to when I was talking about those De Raven autos turning up so easily in Razor Ink. We don't know what or how much Inkworks held in its vault, we don't know what or how much Razor got or exactly what Razor may have done with it once it was repackaged.

De Raven was Season 2 and Holloway was Season 1, so its not impossible to speculate that a few of his cards might still be held. An important on-card autograph wouldn't be destroyed for quality control issues either, if you want to make that wild guess. We're never going to know abut any of it and weird to still have these questions a decade later.

In another thread we are talking about Stana Katic claiming her Spirit autograph sticker card is a fake. Is it, or did she just forget she signed stickers, or did someone else on her end sign for her and she forgot that? Don't know, but Spirit cards came out of those Razor boxes too and stickers could have been lying around because that product was all redemption autograph cards, all stickers, and many may not have been redeemed prior to the closing because it was one of Inkworks' last sets made.

So yes there is a lot of room to be curious and probably absent any solid answers or evidence, everybody's going to think what seems best for them. Smile

____________________
Anne Welles - "You've got to climb Mount Everest to reach the Valley of the Dolls."

 
Posts: 3107 | Location: Queens NYC | Registered: September 21, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of Raven
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quote:
Originally posted by jane:
My theory, Stana is as charming as Nathan Fillion claimed. She signed them in one day or two and has simply forgotten. It was a long time ago, and probably meant very little to her, just another promotional thing to do for that movie. They most likely are real.Smile
[/QUOTE]

Jane, I think you garbled up all three of our comments when you posted. That's your own comment above, although your post makes it look like it was mine.

Not that I would necessarily disagree with you. It's perfectly possible that she accidently or intentionally is disowning her own autograph on a certified card or doesn't want to say she let someone else do it for her.

Celebrities and autographs can be very funny. Some will sign for fans free of charge out of good will, but many are very conscious of the business aspect of selling autographs.

If they are peddling their own autographs for money or in paid autograph appearances, they have a vested interest in keeping the supply down and only available from them. They do not sign for free anywhere and detest anyone who they believe has cut in on their racket and is making money off their signatures. They will throw shade on other items and will sometimes go so far as to sabotage their own autographs by signing sloppy or even smearing the ink before it dries.

Sometimes if they truly don't have a clue, its agents and accountants that advise them what to do. Like everything else the bigger celebrity can easily get overwhelmed with requests for free stuff, so it becomes a practical matter with some people and just money with others.

I think Ted Dastick Jr said he was trying to get in contact with Katic about it. Let's see if she answers. Nobody ever seems to want to retract anything they say, even if it is proven wrong. Why is that? Big Grin
 
Posts: 9340 | Location: New York | Registered: November 20, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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About someone else signing for the celebrity, does that happen often? Because I'd think any uncertainty about that could tank a product. Also it makes me nervous...
 
Posts: 27 | Location: USA | Registered: May 18, 2020Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by JMH710:
About someone else signing for the celebrity, does that happen often? Because I'd think any uncertainty about that could tank a product. Also it makes me nervous...


No, it very rarely happens and certified autograph cards from card manufacturers are the safest way to obtain a guaranteed genuine autograph. That's why I buy them.

But it would be disingenuous to say it has never happened, because we all know that there have been a small number of auto penned signatures and ghost signers on a handful of cards over the years. Nothing is 100% and sometimes signers or their representatives don't realize the damage they do when they get cute.

But that is not a reason to worry about the authenticity of certified autograph cards as a product. No card maker wants to release a bad signature card and suffer the fallout from collectors.

I am personally more concerned about the "experts" in third party authentication getting it wrong, than I am about getting a fake signature on a genuine licensed certified autograph card. Smile
 
Posts: 9340 | Location: New York | Registered: November 20, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Raven:
quote:
Originally posted by JMH710:
About someone else signing for the celebrity, does that happen often? Because I'd think any uncertainty about that could tank a product. Also it makes me nervous...


No, it very rarely happens and certified autograph cards from card manufacturers are the safest way to obtain a guaranteed genuine autograph. That's why I buy them.

But it would be disingenuous to say it has never happened, because we all know that there have been a small number of auto penned signatures and ghost signers on a handful of cards over the years. Nothing is 100% and sometimes signers or their representatives don't realize the damage they do when they get cute.

But that is not a reason to worry about the authenticity of certified autograph cards as a product. No card maker wants to release a bad signature card and suffer the fallout from collectors.

I am personally more concerned about the "experts" in third party authentication getting it wrong, than I am about getting a fake signature on a genuine licensed certified autograph card. Smile


Thanks, this is good to know and I feel better now. I remember there was the whole Seth MacFarlane autopen issue with the Orville cards, but ghost signing was a new one.
 
Posts: 27 | Location: USA | Registered: May 18, 2020Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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