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Sketch card pricing.
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Sketch card prices are so subjective. I've seen sketches I would not have given go for high prices and others I think are excellent hardly get opening bid.

It semms some artists are always popular reguardless of the quality and their sketches reach high values.

It's purely what you are prepared to pay.
 
Posts: 1454 | Location: United Kingdom | Registered: May 04, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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This topic always gets revisited from time to time, but there is no way to list meaningful sketch prices that I have seen. Even if there is enough verifiable data on sales of a particular artist or product or character, which often is not the case, there are still so many different factors involved with a given sketch that all you can reasonably get is very wide price range between low and high values. If a price guide lists sketch cards in a title as $20 - $200, or from an artist as $50 - $300, it hardly helps in figuring the price of an individual one.

It just comes down to what the buyer likes and how much they are willing to pay. I don't know how sketches can ever be accurately priced when you are trying to compare 1/1s that are not meant to be created equal.
 
Posts: 7163 | Location: New York | Registered: November 20, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Bill DeFranzo:
quote:
Originally posted by goldenavenger:

Alright, someone needs to help me understand something...Why did NSU pick MM07 to start listing out all the artists with it being such a large complex list with some questions marks?


Tim,

I believe that the comments posted, so far, in response to your query are on point but let me add to them. NSU did not "choose" MM07. With the reorganization of the price guide (fully explained in the magazine) we have the opportunity to fully list every new card series, ONCE. You will find MM07 shrunk down to next to nothing in the next issue along with other series listed for the first time in Vol. 19 #2. Unfortunately we may not have perfect knowledge of what actually made it into a series at press time, especially when it comes to autographs and sketches but we will be giving the reader more information than we have in the past.

I am responsible for the prices that you find in the guide. I cannot agree more with another poster. I feel that pricing sketch cards is only marginally helpful. Prices for an artist can deviate dramatically making an average useless (without some knowledge of the standard deviation). So, use the prices loosely to gage popularity and demand. The prices found are for specific works of art, not "like kind items", whose value is based upon artist, execution, complexity, subject matter, number of sketches and popularity of subject matter. I'm sure that you can name a few more characteristics effecting price. I would never tell anyone that a sketch that one is about to purchase is worth what it says in the guide. The sale is too subjective.

I am collecting Wizard of Oz sketches but I only want one sketch of each character. My focus is not on the artist but on my perception of the artist's ability to capture the spirit of the character. I will pay accordingly.

A policy is a policy, though. We will continue to list what we know. MM07 will join the ranks of the "shmooshed" in the next issue.

We welcome all corrections. I will be keeping an archive of "unshmooshed" listings for possible future use. Smile


Hey Bill,

Just wondering where the archive of the "unshmoosed" listings are for Sketch cards sets?
Also if anyone can answer this question for me I would be greatly appreciated: is there a specific issue of Non-Sport Update that has a detailed list of pricing for Fleer Ultra Spider-Man '97 Sketchagraphs?
 
Posts: 11 | Location: USA | Registered: January 22, 2017Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Sadly, Bill passed away last year.

This is a rather old thread, but it is good that newer members bump them back from time to time so we can revisit our old ideas and see if things have changed in hindsight.

On this topic, I think my own opinion has remained the same. You can employ all sorts of formulas and consult many guides to try to arrive at sketch prices, but there are too many variables and too many subjective views. To me the best you can come up with is a range that I would base on the artist's reputation for quality artwork as a starting point and then factor in subject, product price, etc.

From Bill's words himself it is pretty clear that he thought sketch card pricing was only marginally helpful and he would not tell anyone a sketch should be purchased by what it says in a guide.

I completely agree. Assuming you are collecting just for your own pleasure, you know what a sketch is worth to you when you see it. Smile
 
Posts: 7163 | Location: New York | Registered: November 20, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Toons:
Also if anyone can answer this question for me I would be greatly appreciated: is there a specific issue of Non-Sport Update that has a detailed list of pricing for Fleer Ultra Spider-Man '97 Sketchagraphs?


I can't recall seeing a specific issue of NSU that had detailed pricing for the 1997 FUSM Sketchagraphs, but there was an issue of Wizard magazine had an artist list. I'm not an "expert" on FUSM Sketchagraphs since I only have one, but I've seen a fair number of FUSM sell over my the almost two decades of collecting Marvel Silver Age & MCC Sketchagraphs. I'm pretty sure the most "common" of them all is probably Rhino by Shannon Denton since there are multiples of the same "static" or "repeat" pose. In spite of that, those Sketchagraphs could probably range between $150-$300 ... maybe more depending on the day.
 
Posts: 436 | Location: Long Beach, CA | Registered: October 15, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by Raven:
I completely agree. Assuming you are collecting just for your own pleasure, you know what a sketch is worth to you when you see it. Smile


... but not if a collector isn't familiar with the 1997 FUSM Sketchagraph market. A newer collector that just wants to acquire one 1997 FUSM Sketchagraph since the newer set comes out this later this year might think they the sell for what current Upper Deck Marvel sketch cards with similar details go for.
 
Posts: 436 | Location: Long Beach, CA | Registered: October 15, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Both treksearcher and Bill have passed away that's very sad Angel
 
Posts: 11638 | Location: England | Registered: September 16, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Heroes For Hire:
quote:
Originally posted by Raven:
I completely agree. Assuming you are collecting just for your own pleasure, you know what a sketch is worth to you when you see it. Smile


... but not if a collector isn't familiar with the 1997 FUSM Sketchagraph market. A newer collector that just wants to acquire one 1997 FUSM Sketchagraph since the newer set comes out this later this year might think they the sell for what current Upper Deck Marvel sketch cards with similar details go for.


True, but I said "just for your own pleasure", so I guess you want to drill down to what I meant by pleasure. Big Grin

To me, when discussing sketch art, it means you see it and you like the way it looks. That means no other considerations, whether you know about them or not. The artist works, the product, the rarity, the market price, the opinion of other collectors, the re-sale demand, all are unknown. You either like it or you don't. And if you like, you have an idea of how much it is worth to you and what you are willing to pay to own it.

Now that is purely subjective to taste and we all know its not how it works for experienced collectors, because we do take all those other factors into consideration. We have to because we know about them and it does make a difference, even if we like to think that we are above being influenced by the market or by our peers.

Simple example, a drawing is on a wall. Its an ugly drawing that looks like nothing. You wouldn't spend a dime on it. Someone tells you it's a Picasso drawing. Now how much would you be willing to spend on it? Big Grin

Looking back to an old issue of NSU, Volume 17 #4, I found a listing for Sketchagraph card in Spider-Man 1997, Fleer Ultra. It's not a range, just $60. I would think that is undervalued for the current prices. Yet I have a couple of Sketchagraphs from Silver Age and I have seen photos of other Sketchagraphs and I would not spend that much on any of them. By today's standards of a quality sketch, they don't visually compare.

That is not to say they aren't worth it to a collector of Sketchagraphs. Of course they are, these are important characters done by important artists. An expert on any type of collectible sees what the layman doesn't and knows the market value paid by other experts. Yet one man's treasure is another man's garbage, maybe not for Picasso, but usually. Roll Eyes

If you were to compare an average Sketchagraph from the 90s to an average sketch in a recent product, recent sketches are going to look better. So if that's what you mean by needing price guides to tell people how much they are worth, I can understand it, but even then it still can only be a range. And collectors who want to pick up these older sketches from well known comic artists doing iconic characters have to do their homework too. Price guides, when you can find them, go out of date. The only current information is recent sales.

If you are collecting sketches not just for the sheer pleasure of having something you like, but for all those other factors as well, you must use the data found on selling sites, hobby publications and any information gleamed from forums like this one, so that you can become an expert yourself.
 
Posts: 7163 | Location: New York | Registered: November 20, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Raven:
Sadly, Bill passed away last year.

This is a rather old thread, but it is good that newer members bump them back from time to time so we can revisit our old ideas and see if things have changed in hindsight.

On this topic, I think my own opinion has remained the same. You can employ all sorts of formulas and consult many guides to try to arrive at sketch prices, but there are too many variables and too many subjective views. To me the best you can come up with is a range that I would base on the artist's reputation for quality artwork as a starting point and then factor in subject, product price, etc.

From Bill's words himself it is pretty clear that he thought sketch card pricing was only marginally helpful and he would not tell anyone a sketch should be purchased by what it says in a guide.

I completely agree. Assuming you are collecting just for your own pleasure, you know what a sketch is worth to you when you see it. Smile


Oh I'm sorry to hear about bill.

As for the topic on hand I thought maybe there be an average price for any particular artist especially from this particular set.
 
Posts: 11 | Location: USA | Registered: January 22, 2017Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Heroes For Hire:
quote:
Originally posted by Toons:
Also if anyone can answer this question for me I would be greatly appreciated: is there a specific issue of Non-Sport Update that has a detailed list of pricing for Fleer Ultra Spider-Man '97 Sketchagraphs?


I can't recall seeing a specific issue of NSU that had detailed pricing for the 1997 FUSM Sketchagraphs, but there was an issue of Wizard magazine had an artist list. I'm not an "expert" on FUSM Sketchagraphs since I only have one, but I've seen a fair number of FUSM sell over my the almost two decades of collecting Marvel Silver Age & MCC Sketchagraphs. I'm pretty sure the most "common" of them all is probably Rhino by Shannon Denton since there are multiples of the same "static" or "repeat" pose. In spite of that, those Sketchagraphs could probably range between $150-$300 ... maybe more depending on the day.


Thanks for answering my question. I have heard about this artist list but thought it was in an issue of Tuff Stuff Collect. Do you or anyone have the specific issue/ volume of either the Wizard or Tuff Stuff Collect magazine this is in?
 
Posts: 11 | Location: USA | Registered: January 22, 2017Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by Toons:
Thanks for answering my question. I have heard about this artist list but thought it was in an issue of Tuff Stuff Collect. Do you or anyone have the specific issue/ volume of either the Wizard or Tuff Stuff Collect magazine this is in?


My mistake, you are correct. I was thinking of the Tuff Stuff Collect. Offhand, I can't remember the specific issue though.
 
Posts: 436 | Location: Long Beach, CA | Registered: October 15, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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quote:
Originally posted by Heroes For Hire:
quote:
Originally posted by Toons:
Thanks for answering my question. I have heard about this artist list but thought it was in an issue of Tuff Stuff Collect. Do you or anyone have the specific issue/ volume of either the Wizard or Tuff Stuff Collect magazine this is in?


My mistake, you are correct. I was thinking of the Tuff Stuff Collect. Offhand, I can't remember the specific issue though.


Okay. Thanks for clearing up which publication it is in. I guess I can make a thread asking the whole board to see if someone else would know.
 
Posts: 11 | Location: USA | Registered: January 22, 2017Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Found it! It's the Dec '97 issue.
 
Posts: 436 | Location: Long Beach, CA | Registered: October 15, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by Heroes For Hire:
Found it! It's the Dec '97 issue.


Fantastic! Thanks man, I really do appreciate your help.
 
Posts: 11 | Location: USA | Registered: January 22, 2017Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by hammer:
Both treksearcher and Bill have passed away that's very sad Angel


It's sad to learn when someone connected to the hobby passes on. I like to think that a part of them lives on through their words on message boards like these and their knowledge is still being share with old and new collectors.
 
Posts: 436 | Location: Long Beach, CA | Registered: October 15, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by Raven:
Looking back to an old issue of NSU, Volume 17 #4, I found a listing for Sketchagraph card in Spider-Man 1997, Fleer Ultra. It's not a range, just $60. I would think that is undervalued for the current prices. Yet I have a couple of Sketchagraphs from Silver Age and I have seen photos of other Sketchagraphs and I would not spend that much on any of them. By today's standards of a quality sketch, they don't visually compare.

That is not to say they aren't worth it to a collector of Sketchagraphs. Of course they are, these are important characters done by important artists. An expert on any type of collectible sees what the layman doesn't and knows the market value paid by other experts. Yet one man's treasure is another man's garbage, maybe not for Picasso, but usually. Roll Eyes

If you were to compare an average Sketchagraph from the 90s to an average sketch in a recent product, recent sketches are going to look better. So if that's what you mean by needing price guides to tell people how much they are worth, I can understand it, but even then it still can only be a range. And collectors who want to pick up these older sketches from well known comic artists doing iconic characters have to do their homework too. Price guides, when you can find them, go out of date. The only current information is recent sales.

If you are collecting sketches not just for the sheer pleasure of having something you like, but for all those other factors as well, you must use the data found on selling sites, hobby publications and any information gleamed from forums like this one, so that you can become an expert yourself.



When Toons bought back this thread after a 6-year hiatus asking about "unshmoosed" listings and a detailed list of pricing for Fleer Ultra Spider-Man '97 Sketchagraphs, it seemed like to me that he was trying to do his due diligence by asking for some help finding reference points since current information for recent sales is largely sparse on those sketch cards.

Now that price guide has the LO and HI columns, those ranges would seem to lend itself nicely to pricing sketch cards. Those pesky variables of that an individual sketch card has would span the spectrum between the LO and HI ranges by each artist in a particular set. Since I like Tony Perna's Marvel sketch cards (but by no means an expert on them), I'll use a hypothetical price guide range of $150 to $400 scenario for his 2012 Marvel Greatest Heroes sketch cards since I remember a few of them selling back in 2012.

A 2012 MGH Perna Scarlet Witch recently sold for $371 in January and an Avengers vs Masters of Evil 3/8 subset (Namor vs Tiger Shark) sold for 279.99 in November. Those 2 cards fit within the range with a more popular character on the higher side of the spectrum and a dual-character card of not as popular characters selling just about in the middle of those ranges. To me, those prices seem consistent for his cards in that set. There was also a Moondragon that went unsold at $299.99 buy-it-now this month and there is a Hercules currently up at the same price. They weren't priced on the highest side of the range, but they are also of a lesser popular characters. A fan of those characters and of Tony Perna's work might be willing to pay around that price for them. I would speculate that fan of Tony Perna would probably be more willing to put them in their personal collection if they were priced closer to the $150 mark.

Now just because those 2 sold within that hypothetical range that doesn't mean that cards can't sell outside the given LO and HI price range. If cards consistently sell near or above the HI column then the range should be adjusted upward accordingly and the same thing if the majority of cards sell at or lower of the LO column. It's just a guide that showed what happened in the past. The nature of these type of price guides are almost like history books ... they show us the past performances of the market. And we know that past performances by no means guarantee future results.

But it does do is gives us a base point to help us decide what we'll do as collectors in adding pieces to our collections in the future. Pretty sure none of really like feeling like we might "overpaid" for a card so some of us need that help because we don't follow to market closely or we're new to it. Sometimes there isn't any completed auctions to gleam some information off of either. Just because there is zero market information from the last 3 to 6 months doesn't mean that the market should also reset to zero. So even having an out of date price guide helps in that regard for a novice. Experts on a given genre don't need to look in a price guide ... they know it already.

Circling back to Tony Perna's 2012 Greatest Heroes sketch cards example, I noted to myself back in 2012 that there was a Swordsman that sold for under the $150 mark and an Antman near it. Should my hypothetical price guide of $150-$400 be adjusted downward because those 2 cards from almost 5 years ago? I'd say probably not because of the newer market information from the 2 more recent sales (Scarlet Witch and the Namor vs Tiger Shark). But now I'm curious what will the Moondragon and Hercules will eventually sell for.
 
Posts: 436 | Location: Long Beach, CA | Registered: October 15, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Even though 2 of these would have been couple of outliers, I wish there were some easily found sketch cards pricing available in the Almanacs.

I understand the argument about sketch cards being 1 of 1 and differences in quality, character, and so on even when imthey are done by the same artists. But it still remains there is sales data available for the individual sets and particular artists that can be quantified. The ranges would suffice for the most part. Outliers had even in jersey and patch cards. If it's a nice looking sketch card or a rare or popular character then it would tend to be on the higher range or above.

The first is a really nice looking Iron Man by Andrew that sold for $49.99 BIN. The typical Iron Man headshot done in ink usually sells in the $15-$40 range. For those that follow this set, this is obviously a nicer variation and would have sold above the normal range (and did). Could it have sold for more? Probably.

2001 Topps Marvel Legends Custom Cover Rare Kaaire Andrews Variant Iron Man https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0...2Fitm%2F352245434344

The next is a Wizard by St. Abin that sold in auction for $202.50. That character usually doesn't pop up in this set. Usually characters like the more common Human Torch and Mr. Fantastic sell in the $35-$80 range.

Fantastic Four Tops Marvel Legends Custom Cover sketch card By Claude St. Aubin https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0...2Fitm%2F192422789533

Lastly a Spider-Man by comic legend John Romita sold for $333.00 in auction. I couldn't even remember when was the last time that I seen one so a price guide reference would have been nice to have.

Marvel Legends John Romita SR. SPIDER-MAN SKETCH CUSTOM COVER CARD original 2001 https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0...2Fitm%2F322983057966
 
Posts: 436 | Location: Long Beach, CA | Registered: October 15, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by Heroes For Hire:
Even though 2 of these would have been couple of outliers, I wish there were some easily found sketch cards pricing available in the Almanacs.


I wish artists would print their names on the back of their sketches, or at least have a readable signature that can be easily recognized to the proper artist. Unfortunately they don't and try as I might, I still have a stack of sketch cards done by that famous artist "Unknown". Big Grin

To your point, I too would enjoy a resource book with pictures of sketch cards from various products that identify the artist by his/her signature, but I'm afraid accurate pricing is beyond any guide IMHO. Sure anyone can assign a wide price range based solely on the reputation of the artist, but how meaningful is that to a particular sketch card?

There are numerous factors involved that can both increase or decrease the potential value of any given sketch card. Even a terrific artist does not create equal art all the time when the sketches are all different 1/1s. The quality, and therefore the demand, can vary greatly.

Then there is the subject and the product it comes from that also effects the demand.

Finally everybody's idea of what a sketch is worth to them is always going to be subjective and all over the board. Its not like you can prove anyone is right or wrong. At best, sketch cards will sell for whatever the highest bidder thinks its worth at the time with no guarantee that the next one will fall in line.

All a sketch card price guide could do, if someone even wanted to try, is average out the value from sales of similar art from the same artist and set one of those $50 - $250 ranges that is too wide to help. That's if you can identify the artist, which brings me right back to my pet peeve. Wink
 
Posts: 7163 | Location: New York | Registered: November 20, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by Raven:
Sure anyone can assign a wide price range based solely on the reputation of the artist, but how meaningful is that to a particular sketch card?


It's all necessarily taking an artist and assigning a range based on the said artist's reputation, but instead taking the sells data for that particular artist's sketch cards for a specific set and calculating a range with whatever proprietorial formula that Beckett utilizes for what those sketch cards have actually sold for.
 
Posts: 436 | Location: Long Beach, CA | Registered: October 15, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I don't know art, but I know what sketch cards I like and which I don't like. That is the ONLY criteria anyone can base the value of a card on, his or her own opinion.
 
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