Hi Guys
Just got the latest issue of NSU here for Feb/Mar. Your pricing of cards is slowly getting better. I stress slowly because dealers are is complaining about your price and the price they get their cards from from their distributors. They are saying they can't even buy wholesale and then sell to the collectors at your guide prices and can't make back what they bought from the distrubtors what they paid for them. That has been an ongoing complaint now for some time. And who suffers here well we collectors do because we have to pay way more than NSU has listed for them.
BIG CASE IN POINT HERE:
Your brand listing of the Women in Star Trek Extension set of 7 of 9. First off it isn't even listed with WOST, it's on it's own as:
"Star Trek Seven of Nine"
Now to the BIGGEST COMPLAINT here:
You list it at $12.50
Come guys you must have really dropped the ball here!!! If I'm correct Rittenhouse on their website had a price of $24.99 direct buy off of them. And no dealer around would sell it to you for under that, most were in the range of $30 to $40. Even ebay had starting bids of $24.99, none of which ended there. Most went for $50 to $125 there constantly!!!
I myself got the set for $54.55
So what are you guys saying here??? I'm a totally idiot for buying this set at more than 4X's your listed price??? And that most all dealers are "theives" because they were asking at least twice your listed price. Or that they were trying to just cover their cost and trying to make a little extra. So now from your price listing every dealer around just RIPPED US OFF EXTREMELY WELL??!! I think not but because of this listing I'm sure that NSU will not be favored by most dealers now.
Again I think NSU has just damaged itself badly with the collector public as well as dealers who depend on NSU for their selling prices for their product.
NSU must start getting some real pricing research from the General Public, both collectors and dealers, before publishing their price guide. They are starting to cause some "friction" between both the collector and the dealer now with these prices.

I can't speak for the NSU listing, I rarely look at it and NEVER price by it. Amazingly, I manage to sell ok without it :shrug: Love ya, NSU, you know that, but my opinion of price guides in ANY form is very low. If you buy something and are happy with what you bought, THAT'S the sign of a good purchase, NOT what the guide value is in NSU.
Yes, there is pressure put on dealers by what pricing shows up in NSU. I just traded one common auto for another common auto in Cinema 2000. I valued both of them, in my humble opinion, at $15 each. NSU came out and the trader mentioned that the auto he sent me was valued at $45 and mine was valued at $15, so he felt I got the better end of the deal. I disagreed and still do. The card he sent me (the $45 one) went unsold/no bids in auctionne at $15. Heck, considering the set's only been out for two months, and I bet there is great lead time on making the magazine, I doubt the set had been out long enough for prices to settle in to get a good read on the sets.
The WOST hopefully does NOT have a value of $12.50 since that's not even wholesale pricing and we'd hate to see a new set devalue so quickly, esp since that set was sold out quite quickly. So, they made an error, and I'm sure they'll get notes, but if you determine your success/failure of your purchases based soley on the word of NSU, then you are giving them too much power. It's a GUIDE, not a BIBLE. It's meant for reference, not blood contracts. It's meant to represent a picture of the collecting industry, trends, etc, NOT the *buck stops here*.
Be realistic, you likely HAVE the cards in your hands before NSU even comes out. I know I do. A new set is released and, horrors upon horrors, I must make my own *shudder* decision on what I buy and how much to spend cause that new set isn't gonna be in there. I live and die by my own collecting sowrd, not NSU's.
If a collector asks me to price my products by guide I can't, cause I don't keep the guides (or didn't when they were pop-outs) and won't. I make my own decisions and you should too.
Let's say a guide makes an error and prices a .10 cent common card at, say, $100. Does that mean all dealers should grab the 50 or so they must have in stacks around their store and slap a $100 price tag on it? They might get lucky and get one fool in who lives and dies by the guide to pay $100, but it's not right and if he has any built in sense, he'd (the seller) would KNOW somethnig was wrong with the guide and price according to his instincts.
I was told once the biggest difference between a sports card collector and a non-sport card collector was that the sports collector went the shows with his price guide and a NS collector went with his wish list. May it ever be so.....

One other thing..there is a BIG difference between an ERROR in the guide and a BOGUS or malicous price in the guide, which are you infering this is, if i may ask? I assume since you use BOGUS in big letters on the newsgroups and encourage complaints, you think this is some sort of intentional plot on their part? Why not, instead, type up YOUR pricing suggestions and email them to the person in chanrge fo the guide. That's constructive, rather then desstructive.
They listen, I have written and gotten removed, errors in their lists (MS One binder, a promo set that wasn't real) I knwo on my site I'm GRATEFUL for any pair of eyes I can get, Noone's perfect, but errors aren't necessarily anything mroe then jsut that, an error.
Am I a little witch or WHAT...;)

First off Lynne
BOGUS = incorrect reguardless of error or intentional.
Now this isn't the first time on something that NSU has listed and it's been BOGUS. Now if we all are going to pay for a service, I would like that service to be worth the price I'm paying for it. Not filled with errors as often as it seems to be happening here. Personally at my job if I constantly made errors I would be looking for a new job all the time errors occur. Now with NSU basically being the ONLY PRICE GUIDE out there, without competion now, I would hate to see the quality and respectablity decline.
Granted "Price Guides" aren't a BIBLE but they shouldn't be a work of Science Fiction either. Now if NSU doesn't want to be "Fiction" they should hear and listen and search out what collectors and dealers have to say, here at their BBS, online Newsgroups, and in person at cards shows across the country not just the BIG NAME shows like Philly and such. How about seeing a face of NSU at some shows where common collectors go that can't travel across the country for their hobby. If we want faceless deals that's what Ebay is for.
And Lynne I'm not talking about Brand NEW sets that just came out here. WOST 7 of 9 set has been out here from about before the beginning of the holidays. Rittenhouse has a website that anyone , even NSU, can visit to see what the real price is. Now not taking advantage of info like that is not doing your reseach. So now please explain to me why I want to be willing to pay for a situation like this??? There has been plenty of time here with the 7 of 9 set that this BOGUS price should have never gone to print.
Now we're not talking about a $.10 common card here priced at $100, we're talking about a subset/chase card that is severly under priced so much so that any dealer that looked at the price would have to throw their hands up in the air and say I can't sell it at that price. Now I know dealers here who are totally upset with the pricing NSU has come up with here and have said that they determine their own pricing reguardless of what NSU has to say about it. So again with a situation like this please tell me why I want to spend money on the magazine no that some dealers won't even consider their pricing now at all, correct or not, errors or not.
Now you want to know the real difference in Sports and Non-Sports collectors: We go to shows with price list and wish list in hand looking for deals, bargains or GREAT TRADES!
If the Guides are out of "WHACK" that throws us all off, none of that can happen!!!
I never encopuraged complaints on the newsgroups, I encouraged that we all be heard here by NSU. Wheather it be praise or gripes. NSU has once again set up this BBS to hear us. If NSU cares what we say and has gone to the trouble of setting up this BBS then we should "Sound Off" to them. Because if there's just "static" here on the BBS, then NSU will never know if they are doing "Good" or "Bad" in their jobs. For you to infer that I'm causing a riot against NSU is pretty low here Lynne. I would like those of us who pay for the magazine to be heard and to be taken seriously on what is REALLY happening out here.
Now for all to know, not just Lynne, I did participate in the online survey here on the NSU website. Giving them my opinions GOOD and BAD of their magazine. But maybe not everyone did that and would like to be heard here on the BBS so that NSU can see these comments from the collectors and dealers themselves. Maybe I'm wrong Lynne but isn't this the very reason to have an NSU BBS with a subject matter "NSU Magazine"??? The place to air our gripes and ideas to maybe make te magazine better and more of what we the buyers of the magazine would like out of it??? If NSU what to hear from us then they should be able to take the Bad comments with the Good ones. And even maybe make an area here on the BBS that is kindred to a "Suggestion Box".
Just for everyone else to know I do like NSU, but it still does have some problems. I would like to see the problems cleared up, then I'm willing to bet the Magazine could basically become a "BIBLE" to non-sports card collecting. If and when that happens would NSU be proud of an accomplishment like that??

I think you're being a little to tough on NSU kidtrek. Unlike Lynne, I do look as NSU pricing, but only to get an idea of what a Dealer might sell it for. Most of their pricing is alot higher than what you can find it on Lynne's auction or eBay for. Just look at any common set... they usually have it in NSU around $12-18 but you are lucky if you can sell a common set for $2-3.
On the WOST 7of9 gold set... It's obvious that someone made a simple mistake there. Heck, $12.50 is below dealer cost (I know as I buy direct from Rittenhouse.) At a minimum they should have it at $25 which was list price and to be more acurate it should probably be in there around $40-50.
To put down the magazine just because they get a few price listings way off is silly. I agree with Lynne, send them a correction instead of just bitching about it.
I also agree with Lynne... If you are happy with what you paid (or sold) an item for then it was a "Good Deal" reguardless of what the price guides say.
-J!m

A Little Tough on NSU???? Hmmm Let see this kind of "error problem" has been going on for how long?? Well at least when I started collecting about 4 yrs now. Most dealers I talk to Have a very bad dislike for NSU pricing. Again because of their below cost pricing on sets and chase cards.
Let's talk bout what I collect here:
Babylon 5 cards:
There's a online site for pricing those cards and stuff:
http://www.webcs.com/b5/priceguide.html
Now they seem to be more on the ball than NSU for the plain reason being they take collectors and dealers prices and opinions of things into consideration. Most B5 collectorss online use that as the ultimate card pricing guide. Now here's something, B5 Ultra set Holograme dated '95, that's 6 years folks, NSU listed price: $40, Online guide price $75, Reality $60 to $80. That's 6 yrs. of "error"???!!! You all be the judge. B5 S.E. dated '97 Mira un#'ed "Mystery" card: NSU $75, Online guide $130, Reality about $150 today. 4 yrs of "error"
Now onto Buffy TVS sets:
Sea.1 dated '98 Chosen Ones NSU $7, Reality $10 to 12.
Slayer Kit NSU $10, Reality $12 to $18 maybe $20 at times.
How to Kill a Vampire NSU $17, Reality starting at $25 and up. 3yrs of "error".
ST: TOS 1 dated '97
Gold Plaque cards #6 & 11, for those who don't know EXTREMELY short printed EXTREMELY RARE and HARD TO FIND NSU $9, Reality $30 to $50. 4 yrs of "error".
ST: Phase 1 dated '95
Gold Ship Registry NSU $35, Reality STARTING at $50 per cards. 6 yrs of "error".
Are any of you seeing my point these ar not random "errors", these are constant misquoting on prices for yaers at a time.
And J!m granted the common sets price downslide happened at Voyager Profiles. NSU has that set listed at $15. I have so many "useless" sets from the 3 boxes that I bought back in '98 that are taking up space here because you can't even get $5 per set for them. I know I've seen them at shows in the "CHEAPO" bins that never move. Again 3yrs. of misquoted set prices on not only ST: Voyager Profiles but every set that came after that.
Now as for both you and Lynne who say if you are happy with what you bought for the price you bought it at that's all that matters. Do you just cards??? Because yes there no complaint at what I buy for my collections for in terms of what I end up paying for them. But if you both mean that little saying in general, then what you are telling me is STOP buying NSU because that's where my problem lays. For 2 big supporter of NSU that's not a good suggestion to try and drum up business for them.
Again I would like to see NSU improve not go along this constant "error" path they seem to be following. Now in the latest issue they did say something about their survey and how most people wouldn't mind spending more for their "Deluxe" version of NSU. Well personally why do I want to spend more for a "jazzed up" version of a magazine that still has "errors" in it??
And once again I did take part in their online survey and expressed my concerns. Now I'm taking my concerns directly to them via the BBS here. Am I wrong to think that this is what the purpose of this BBS is for here?? You know I could just shut up here and NSU would never know about these things, but hey what purpose would that serve??? They have to know about our gripes if they are ever goning to improve their magazine.

First of all, NSU is more then a price guide. Why so much emphasis on this one part.
Secondly, I don't think either Jim nor I suggested you stop your subscription, so don't imply such.
Thirdly, there are obvioulsy prices that are in error, not adjsuted after their inital placement or gotten from a source that is off balance with what the rest of the world would have suggested.
What I take issue with is your implications of less then honorable intentions on NSU's part. You encouraged the spreading of a rumor that NSU fixed the Gummies, you use words like bougs, thieves, fools. Those are destructive things. If, as you say, you like NSU and their mag and only want to helpful, I'd hate to see you when you are trying to be negative.
There are ways to get one's point across, there are ways to point out errors or bad decisions/judgements. If that's too diffucult a concept to understand, then you will find your opinions are set aside for their words alone and not their content.
If you want to assist in a more accurate guide, great, go for it, take the guide apart and put the prices you think are more appropriate and why, and send it to them, encourage others to the same. That's constructive. Heck, some of the rational for the prices you show in your comment are accurate enough (though I disagree a bit on the gold plaque cards from Phase One), so your theories/facts that some prices need adjsuting are sound. Why not just offer those thing up rather then all the idio, theives, ripped off fluff?
Gosh, the day NSU arrives at the door must be so stressful for dealers!! They gotta stock up on those little price stickers and rush about changing prices quickly to conform, work late into the night, I had no idea...;)
I guess people read NSU for the price guide, like men read Playboy for the articles....

I feel I have to jump into this melee and say something too. Kid Trek, even if he's using some rather strongly negative language, has a point. Some of the price guide listings are wrong. We have a direct line to NSU through Card Talk, so tell them and they will adjust the prices. The price guide is just that - a guide, not the last word on value. A dealer will sell a card for what he needs to get out of it, or what he thinks he can get for it, not what NSU says it is. If you look in the pages of NSU at the ads, and in websites and in card shops and shows, you will not find the same price on a single card or set. It has to be very difficult to set a value on something like this. Also, the price will change drastically - who would have thought the Star Trek Movie Collection that went for $120 would wind up in KayBee discount stores for $15? Dumping is another problem entirely, but does that mean NSU should mark the new price accordingly and all the dealers who still have sets of these to sell should mark them down as well? There used to be several magazines with price guides in them, you could figure an average value, but now there's only one price guide left. Rather than be severely critical of it, let's be supportive and nurture it along.

I guess its time we respond to all of this. First of all, it should be noted that Kid Trek is violating the "rules & policies" that everyone has to agree to when signing up for the "Card Talk" forum. When you sign up, one of the things you must agree to is "You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use this BB to post any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise violative of any law." Certainly the original post, as well as a previous post, were defamatory. As they say, three strikes and you're out. So, here's my formal warning. One more post of this sort and we will remove you.

Now, having gotten that out of the way, I can't beleive this has been made into such a big deal. Ok, so we made a mistake of that Seven of Nine series. We'll change it --- big deal! We're not perfect and attempt to track prices for thousands of listings -- we're bound to make mistakes. Unless you have ever done this, you probably can't understand.

The reason we added the "Card Talk" board back onto our site was to get constructive feedback and allow collectors to interact amongst themselves with meaningfull discussions.

We really do want feedback on the price guide. We've continually asked for this from the time we started. If there are errors, the way to go about it is to e-mail us or Bill DeFranzo. Screaming about it on a public forum really doesn't help things. If we have made a mistake, the only way for us to know about it is if somebody points it out. Otherwise, how would you know that it is a mistake?

You may think it's ok to defame a magazine but there are individuals involved. For us, the magazine mainly consists of three family members and a team of freelance guys, who work very hard. It's not like we are Time/Life with hundreds of employees so we do take things personally. How would you feel if people defamed you publically in this manner? We probably also should add that some of these statements, both here and on the non-sport newsgroup, especially ones that may impact sales, become a legal issue. We really don't want to pursue this avenue if we don't have to but we will should it become necessary.

I agree with Kid Trek and I hope that doesn't get me kicked out of this BBS. . .

From personal experience I have dealt with massive problems in the price guide. . . I spent a few weeks emailing Bill DeFranzo about the problems, and while some did get corrected eventually, it was a major hassle to prove my points, and simply not worth the effort.

One thing that did get done because of my emails was the listing of the 35mm film frame card under WildCATS animated. . . this was featured in a story in NSU, and not even listed in the guide for years. But what about Saturday Night Live autograph cards? I wrote to tell them the pricing was simply wrong -- at that time all autographs were listed at $12 or something. . . and even now they did break out Farley and Hartman (still way lower than market value), the list several comedy super stars as being $15 each. . . come on: Adam Sandler, Mike Myers, Chris Rock and Rob Schnieder selling for $15, not to mention the same price as unknowns like Julia Sweeny, GE Smith and Tim Meadows. I have been working on a set of these cards for at least 5 years, and am still a few away from a set of about 10 cards.

What about the All My Children and Twin Peaks autographs. . . those aren't even mentioned in the price guide.

Mallrats. . . I was discussing these with Defranzo, but gave up. . . there is no autograph card per box (there were some in the original release if you bough from View Askew, but they were shrink wrapped to the box, and NOT available through any other venue. . .) So there is no regular autograph card in the boxes at all, period. Also there is only one set possible per box, with very few extra cards left over so why is a box worth more than twice a set?

Those are just flat out mistakes. . . not even getting into the nitty gritty on pricing (Saved by the Bell College years boxes at $30 -- I can buy them all day for under $5) . . .

Pricing all comes down to the dumped product issue. Is a price guide supposed to reflect the current price an item is selling for in retail places, or the MSRP? Prices based on original dealer costs hurt collectors. . . when was the last time a box of Marvel Motion sold for $70? Many reputable dealers have boxes for about 80% less than that.

What is the defense for listing Marvel Motion boxes at $70 -- this is the same point I brought up a couple of years ago.

I have been a long time subscriber of NSU and it is the greatest magazine around and has always been (unfortunately one of the few remaining magazines as well).

The price guide is just that, a guide, pay what something is worth to you personally, not what a guide tells you. If I have been looking for something and say the person wants $10 for it and the guide says $5,
I'll pay the $10 if I want the item that badly.

I do trades sometimes at NSU price guide value and that has its pluses and minuses for me, but averages out in the long run.

Also with new cards, prices are not always what they should be. But remember that there is a big lag time to get a magazine out of the door from the time the prices in the guide were updated. Most likely the next
issue will be more in line price wise. NSU can make mistakes as well like the 7 of 9 WOST complaint. I'm sure it will be fixed. The folks at NSU are real good about listening to us, the collector. Feel free to
email any one of them. They do listen, and they do respond! I have given input many times on items, some that have been addressed in the current NSU magazine.

It also takes time to get corrections in the guide as well. Remember the guide is prepared well before going to press. Bill, Harris, and Roxanne do care and will listen. No need to publically blast them here and in the newsgroups. I agree this forum is to talk directly to NSU, but the guide does say email or contact Bill DeFranzo with pricing & listing errors, additions, information, etc. Do that first, if you and Bill can't see eye to eye, then contact Harris or Roxanne and see if they can assist.

NSU, keep up the great work. I know its hard to put out this magazine, and I for one appreciate the magazine, for its content, the Gummies, the Promos, and the Guide, and your willingness to listen to us.

Mike.

First, I don’t entirely disagree with some of the negative comments in this stream and most are directly or at least indirectly aimed at me. So, spydrman , if you are barred from the BB for your opinions then so should I. Please read Harris’ note again. He was not referring to “opinions”. Your opinions are important to me.

Regarding: “I spent a few weeks emailing Bill DeFranzo about the problems, and while some did get corrected eventually, it was a major hassle to prove my points, and simply not worth the effort. “

Reply: I vaguely remember our conversations. I used what information that was given that was usable at the time. I (or my predecussors) can’t list what they don’t know (or can’t verify its) existence. If you had a “hassle proving” your point it shows the balance that NSU attempts to maintain between completeness and accuracy. Trust me, not everything I receive is always accurate. I have to be cautious. I apologize if some of your information was not used. Your comment on the Mall Rats autograph has been duly noted. The box price will remain at $15.00, however, because that is what I see them selling for up here.

With respect to autograph cards from Star Pics series. When a company is defunct whom should I call for information? If someone would supply me with a complete list of autographs for Saturday Night Live then I would appreciate it. I have a listing of nine different (NSU indicates 12) but I have no individual prices. Ditto for Twin Peaks. I just picked up my first autograph card for Star Pic’s Playboy series. We don’t list the autographs in the guide. It might have something to do with their only being available randomly in boxed sets when they were originally released. Anyone have a complete list? Having a list of signers may not get them listed separately, at least not until valid prices are reported. I paid $4.00 for my Playboy autograph. I don’t think that it represents the fair market value. Do you? Coincidentally I received some Twin Peaks autograph information a couple of weeks ago but what am I supposed to do when I’m told that the autographs go for $15 to $75 with no supporting detail? I was given a partial list of signers, which was a big help.

I appreciate and respect all correspondence with respect to pricing errors and omissions. Your information will be included if it is of the detail that we need for it to be listed. In some cases it will be averaged in. Simply telling me that something is missing won’t trigger a change in the guide until/if the missing information can be derived from some other source.

What older series are still very actively traded? Which series have stale prices? I will add them to my list of series to monitor. I don’t want to get into the discussion on dumped prices now. I just bought 30 complete sets of cards at $0.83 (that’s eighty-three cents) apiece. No, I won’t change the price guide for these series.

I live in New Hampshire. When one of you buys an Adam Sandler autograph for a fair price how am I supposed to know? I need your help! Really! I know that the prices are wrong in the guide for SNL autographs based upon reader feedback. Thank you. They will remain wrong, however, until I can verify recent sales myself or someone reports sales or legitimate “buy” lists.

In summary, it is my job to keep the guide as current as possible. That takes knowledge, knowledge that you may have and I wish that you would share your knowledge. I am a big boy. I can take negative criticism of my work albeit constructive. Keep it up!

What I have a problem with is that you admit there are problems in the price guide with things -- like SNL autograph cards, and still list wrong prices. Wouldn't it be better to say the price is not available, or speculative than to leave it listed wrong when you know it is wrong?

Everyone knows that mistakes are made, and everyone knows that these items do not exchange hands very often so accurate/current pricing is difficult, but I think they would rather hear you say "I don't know about this, please help me out" rather than seeing no information or bad information.

Under All My Children and Twin Peaks you could actually say that autos are available and ask people to send information, instead of not saying anything.

People are more than willing to help when they think they will be listened to.

Obviously you can't send off a letter to Star Pics (Since they are out of business), but somone used to work at Star Pics, and some of the biggest dealers around advertise in your magazine, and those dealers have massive amounts of information, and lots of contacts in the industry, maybe one of those dealers knows a former Star Pics employee?

Perhaps it doesn't make business sense to chase down information about a single set (Although we are talking about 4 different sets here: Playboy, SNL, AMC and Twin Peaks), but it doesn't make sense to list wrong pricing or no information either.

It it helps here is a list of SNL autograph cards that are known to exist.

Al Franken #9 Stuart Smalley
Julia Sweeny #18 Pat
Rob Schneider #19 Richmeister
Mike Myers #27 Wayne Campbell
Chris Rock #33 Nat X
Chris Farley #47 Chippendales
Adam Sandler #53 Iraqi Pete
GE Smith #58
Phil Hartman #83 Ed McMahon
Tim Meadows #89
Kevin Nealon #130
Ellen Cleghorn #131 signed "Queen Shenequa"
Ellen Cleghorn #131 Signed "E. Cleghorn"

If you need proof or more information I can provide scans of all but 2 of these cards, and I have owned at one time or another all but one of them (Chris Rock), and I have seen the Rock autograph. Email me if you would like more information.

As for the Mallrats cards information, my source is View Askew -- the company that made Mallrats, and was the main seller of the boxes. I am not so concerned about the pricing -- the difference between $15 and whatever else isn't far off.

Finally Marvel Motion. . .
Marchant Cards has boxes for $15 right now (www.marchantcards.com), Barrington Square has them for $12.50 a box (based on case price), and priced similarly at a recent show I saw them at ($16-18 a box I believe). A completed auction search on ebay shows 13 boxes that sold for between $11 and $23.50. Obviously these sources are not conclusive, but definately show a trend that boxes either for sale from major dealers or online auctions are not selling anywhere close to $70.

Bill, I hope you were serious when you said you can take constructive criticism 'cuz I'm about to dish some out

You say "They will remain wrong, however, until I can verify recent sales myself or someone reports sales or legitimate buy lists."

You stood at my tables a year or so ago when a collector and I were talking about Comic Images' 1988 Savage Sword of Conan. You overheard our entire conversation about the scarcity of the cards, difficulty of finding sets and pricing. I mentioned I had recently sold a set for $175 and had another missing 2-cards which I wouldn't take less than $175 for. The collector, who BTW, you know well, said he had been collecting them for some time and had a couple of sets and if he were to sell them he wouldn't take less than $175 either. We even joked about the set being listed and $12 or $15...why is this set now listed at $110? Did you find sets for sale for $45 and that's how you came up with the price? I hope not since, you're doing the set and collectors a disservice by even thinking this set sells ANYWHERE for $45 considering it takes more than 1-box to complete and you list the boxes at $200.

You also walk around many of the shows on the east coast. Why aren't you writing down set and insert prices? At non sport shows you have perhaps the largest array of sets and inserts than anywhere else, all priced to sell. True, some dealers may give discounts when the cards are sold, however, this has no bearing on the selling price which, for the most part is labeled right on the set or insert. Do you not consider these valid prices? Surely a set which is for sale by a dealer holds more credence than a price someone gives you if they don't have the set for sale.

What about upgrading prices on sets which aren't seen with any regularity? If someone is selling them on a sales list or in a catalog, surely the listed price has some merit.

Lastly I'd like to address the practice of averaging prices. If one dealer sells a particular set for $10 another for $15, you list the price as $12.50. Is this fair? What does it say? It says one dealer is selling the set for under 'guide' and another is gouging. I know, I know...it's just a guide but, let's face it, we can say that all we want, it still doesn't translate to collectors who use "book" prices. Don't you think, especially since non sport card collecting is not a local thing, that prices should be listed with high and low prices and let the collector then decide if they want to hold out for the low price or buy at the higher price you also know about? Averaging doesn't tell a collector anything since, there may be 2 or 20 prices which you take into consideration and the collector hasn't a clue what the set sells for.

There's one aspect of the price guide I'd like to commend you and Roxanne for. You denote which boxes were dumped, informing collectors the prices listed may not be the prices their dealer is selling them for. This is valuable information to be given since, it would be wrong for collectors to think every dealer was 'in' on the buy-out at greatly reduced wholesale prices. Many dealers actually still have stock purchased at the original wholesale cost and unless they lose money cannot possibly sell at the blow-out prices. Telling the collector which boxes were blown out tells them the boxes MAY be available at the prices listed, however, not from every dealer.

As a long time subscriber I'd like to add that all in all, NSU does a great job of getting information out to collectors. The articles, information on up-coming sets and obvious devotion of Roxanne, Harris and the rest of the staff shows through in every issue. Even the price guide is, for the most part, a valuable tool for collectors who use it as it is intended. It's a monumental job, I know and I commend the effort which y'all put into publishing the magazine.

Mollie

Acknowledging that if a guide is to be offered and we would want said guide to be accurate, perhaps a section of the firum could be dedicated to this subject alone? People with issues could list their objections, we could fight it out and then Bill et all could cull the nuggets of gold from what we post. If the prices listed are sound and stand up to scrutiny and are still ignored, then we can reopen this thread and beat 'em up...;) I'd like to think they want accuracy as much as you readers do?

Oh and if you DO do that, give it big series, it's own thread, so ST stays with ST, Staw Wars is with Star Wars, etc, so there is some sense to the concept...

Is anyone at NSU folling this thread anymore?

Looks like people would love to continue it, but it is kinda pointless without any input.

I LOVE Mollie's suggestion to do high and low prices. That would solve the whole dumped product pricing issue, wouldn't it.

Then again, are you going to put for say Marvel Motion (you knew that was coming) $11-$70 for a box? Or even $18-$70 for a box. (The average price I have seen in the real world is about $18). That would be about as useful as putting Twin Peaks autographs: $15-$75.

Why would you want to have the value in the guide of '88 CI Conan updated but not dumped product? Is it because increasing the value of an item helps dealers who are sitting on the cards, and decreasing the value hurts dealers who are sitting on the cards?

Regardless of what a dealer pays for a product a price guide should reflect the current value of that item. Back to Marvel Motion, which was released 5 years ago, when do you stop saying 'Hey this is dumped, but dealers are sitting on boxes they paid way more than current value for' and start saying 'Ok, this stuff has been on the market for 5 years, it should be listed at secondary market values.'

If you went to a computer store and they had a 1996 computer on the shelf for $2500 would you buy it? If you asked the dealer why it was marked at $2500, when it was worth about $250 and he said "Well, back in 1996 I had to pay $2500 for the machine, manufacturers dropped the price on this model, but since I paid $2400 for it I am selling for $2500" would you whip out your credit card?

Of course not, that doesn't make any sense. Why are non-sports cards different? (And small Mom and Pop computer shops are in the positions I just mentioned, not just superstores).

I had to look up Bogus in the dictionary as I had a feeling this word had many meanings. And as It turns out it certainly does. Bogus as an additive can be described as Counterfeit or fake, fraudulent; having a misleading appearance. It can mean False, Incorrect, Unbelievable, and Silly. Some of these words are true when applying them to the NSU Price guide. Sorry NSU, You have a good price guide which is getting better. But to immediately quote holy scripture from the "rules & policies" was wrong. Well at least I think it was wrong. You should of been a little more forgiving to your followers as we are just collectors "learning" to be better card aficionados.

I just spent the better part of an Hour reading most all these posts regarding Kid Trek's beef. I Agree with much of what was said. And I believe this BB forum is as good as any decusion forum to voice an opinion no matter how objectionable it may be to NSU. After all, The only way things get changed is to voice your opinion publicly. And then to have others offer constructive criticisms, corrections, and or opinions. This is what we call "constructive feedback" NSU. It's all constructive. In the end it becomes something better than what we started out with.

The only reason this thread has become as large as it is is because we all have opinions about the same topic. The NSU price guide. I personally hope the guide becomes separate from NSU as i am willing to pay more for the most informative, accurate and up to date information available. I estimate that just the Star Trek section could be several pages long if it listed everything.

I have an All My Children Autograph list that iv compiled from several old emails I saved from Mark Malcauso <--spell check) and another dealer a few years ago. Ill will forward it to Bill. Maybe this will make the AMC section a bit prettier? And perhaps take up another column.

The first list is from Mark Malcaluso. He wanted $55 per card. Of cource this was way too much money. I never purchased any from him. This list was from Nov 1998. He died a month later.

Card #
4 Ray Macdonnell
#5 Mary Fickett
#9 David Canary
#10 David Canary
#15 Gregory Gordon
#20 James Mitchell
#22 Kari gibson
#23 Scott Baker
#25 Jill Larson
#31 Kate Collins
#32 Kate Collins
#33 James Kiberd
#35 William Christian
#39 Ruth Warrick
#42 Eileen Herlie
#47 Elissa Leeds
#49 Richard Shoberg
#55 Walt Willey


The other list I have was from AutodCards@aol.com. I purchased 3 of these cards
from him in Nov 98 for $20 each I belive it was. I could figure out the card #'s and scan the 3 I have for you if necessary.

Joe Martin (Ray MacDonnell)
Ruth Martin (Mary Fickett)
Stewart Chandler (David Canary)
Brian Bodine (Gregory Gordon)
Palmer Cortland (James Mitchell)
Dixie Martin (Kari Gibson)
Craig Lawson (Scott Baker)
Opal Cortland (Jill Larson)
Natalie Cortland (Kate Collins)
Janet Green (Kate Collins)
Trevor Dillion (James Keberd))
Derek Frye (William Christian)
Jeremy Hunter (Jean LeClerc)
Phoebe Wallingford (Ruth Warrick)
Myrtle Fargate (Eileen Herlie)
Brook English (Julia Barr
Tom Cudahy (Richard Shoeberg
Jackson Maontgomery (Walt Willey)

Thank You.
Jeff Jacob

This is in response to a few comments made by spydrman.

You ask what should be done about a product which has been dumped if high low prices are used. As it is now, dumped product should be noted as such. It wouldn't take much math to figure out why the spread is as large as it is. It would also make for a happier collector who, doesn't know where s/he could find a dealer selling the 'dumped' prodluct, therefore, paying more for the product wouldn't seem like such a dumb idea.

You say "That would be about as useful as putting Twin Peaks autographs: $15-$75" and I disagree. Anyone who has paid $15 would know they found a great bargain while anyone paying $75, not knowing where to find one for $15 wouldn't feel as if they over paid. If the span is as great as $15-$75, so be it...that's what it is.

You asked, "Why would you want to have the value in the guide of '88 CI Conan updated but not dumped product?" and I think you should read my post again. I commended NSU for noting dumped product as such. If '88 CI Conan is dumped (in my dreams) then by all means, make the notation and say what the selling price is. My intention was, to say that a product which has been dumped is not available to everyone and the price shouldn't be taken as gospel.

You say, "Regardless of what a dealer pays for a product a price guide should reflect the current value of that item." and I agree. The difference is, not all dealers have dumped product available to them, ergo, not all collectors can get dumped product from their dealers. Because a product is dumped does not mean the value of the set has gone down, only that some dealers got the product for way less than the original wholesale price and, until the supply is depleted will sell it for a greatly reduced price. The cards still have the same value, and the reduced price is only temporary.

You ask when a product should be listed at secondary market values and that answer is simple, they should be listed at the price at which it is selling, whether it was newly released, or only available from the secondary market. Where and how a product is obtained has nothing to do with the selling price of a card set.

You asked, "If you went to a computer store and they had a 1996 computer on the shelf for $2500 would you buy it?" No, because a 1996 computer is outdated, however, this does not relate to a card set since, sets do not get outdated, upgraded or go out of style. If this were true, a 1967 Star Trek set would be selling for $10

As far as sitting on product purchased when it was released and was later dumped, this is a hazard of the business. If every dealer sold every issue out, what would new collectors and/or collectors who missed a set do? Not everything must be sold shortly after it is issued, not every dealer must sell everything in stock ASAP and today's collectors are not the end of the market. A shrewd dealer recognizes the future of the hobby and will not sell at a loss simply because some dealers got in on a great buy.

Happy collecting,

M

Mollie -- and anyone else.

Please explain to me what a dumped product is? If a
single dealer decides to sell product under cost
that doesn't make it dumped. Somehow LOTS of product
gets into the market for less than wholesale cost.
In order to be dumped it has to be enough product to
reach a large number of consumers right? While a
product is being dumped the value should be lower,
since it can commonly be found for a given price
lower than the original price. If the supply dries
up and the value increases, please show that.

The object of a price guide isn't to make everyone
feel good about how much they spent, the object is
to show the current market value of an item.

Even though you like to have dumped product marked
as dumped, you don't want to leave the item priced
at original retail price? In your post you say
for dumped Conan "make the notation and say what
the selling price is", but they don't say what the
selling price is -- that is my entire point.

I feel like your entire post contradicts itself,
Mollie. How can dumped cards have the same value
if they are selling for less -- even if they only
sell for less for a few months, that should be
reflected in a price guide -- it is a price guide
that tracks current market value, if an item sells
really cheap for a while the market value has
changed.

Do you hear sports card dealers and magazines saying
"I know Darryl Strawberry is a drug addict, but I
paid $40 for his card, so even though NO one is
paying $40 for the card, let's leave the price in
the guide the way it was because some dealers bought
the card while he was still popular"

If you don't think cards get outdated, then I
guess you don't follow the trends very closely.
Pokemon -- is that out dated, it is no longer
trendy, sales have dropped off -- outdated, sure.
New Kids on the Block, Desert Storm, Plasm,
at one time these were all the rage, with the
passage of time they have fallen out of favor.
Definately outdated. Just because '67 Star Trek
has fallen back into favor doesn't mean it isn't
outdated. If you feel more comfortable we can
compare to cars. A brand new 1998 still on the
dealer lot is worth less than a 2001 on the lot,
and dentoted as such in the Blue Book. A '67
car will probably have fallen back into favor
and regained it's lost value.

Just because some dealers hold out selling
dumped product on the principle of losing money
shouldn't come into the decision of value.
Value is based on what items are SELLING for.
If you are sitting on boxes that are not
selling because they are priced over market
value that shouldn't come into the price guide
decision at all. Value is based on the price
that items are changing hands for in the
market place. Anyone who has sold a Marvel
Motion Box for $70 in the last 6 months please
speak up now. Who is sitting on boxes of
Plasm or Comics Future Stars and still has
them priced at original retail? And if they
are sitting on them at $50 a box, are they
selling? I can show you a dozen sales right
now of Marvel Motion boxes for less than $25,
yet that has no bearing on the value since
they are dumped, and some dealers got stuck
with boxes they paid $70 for. Again, please
show me a dozen sales of Marvel Motion boxes
at $70 and I won't have an argument at all.

Jon